Guarding bigger players test for Marion

Joe Mama

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http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/1104marion1104.html

Guarding bigger players test for Marion

Norm Frauenheim
The Arizona Republic
Nov. 4, 2003 12:00 AM


There are different labels for the position. For number crunching, it's a four. For bone crunching, it's power forward. For the Suns' Shawn Marion, it's just a lousy fit.

"But it's also reality," Marion said before the season started. "It's what we've got working for us right now."

Marion is built along the classic lines of a small forward - if you're counting, a three. He's sleek, slick and usually a couple of feet ahead or above all of the crunching.

But in a season when the Suns figure to give up several inches in height and muscle, Marion could be thrown into battles that test his body, if not his will.

In an attempt to offset size, Suns coach Frank Johnson is employing a variety of offenses and defenses designed to capitalize on his team's quickness.

Often, that means an alignment that will spread the Suns across the floor to open enough space for them to move in, out and around.

Just as often, however, it means that the 6-foot-7, 228-pound Marion will find himself nose to chest against a 6-9, 256-pound Karl Malone or a 6-11, 230-pound Rasheed Wallace.

It's not exactly a confrontation that Marion wants, or even one he believes he can survive for too long throughout an 82-game schedule.

A couple of years ago, it was projected that Marion might be able to swing one day to shooting guard.

But Marion, a four-year veteran, has been forced in a different direction by a perennially undersized team that grew even smaller last month with a deal that sent center Jake Tsakalidis and forward Bo Outlaw to Memphis.

Initially, it was clear that Marion was unhappy.

He already had suffered through a bruising mismatch against the bigger San Antonio Spurs in the first round of last season's playoffs. Since the start of training camp, however, Johnson thinks Marion has begun to adjust.

"I think he's getting more comfortable," Johnson said. "It is an adjustment, simply because he is playing against a guy who is probably bigger and longer than him."

In games against San Antonio, Cleveland and the Los Angeles Lakers, Marion has averaged 16.7 points and 9.7 rebounds.

He has worked to put on weight. He's eight to 10 pounds heavier than he was a year ago. Over the course of playing three and four games a week, however, it may be tough to maintain that weight.

He was at 225 at last year's season opener. About six months later, he was 218 to 220. At practice Monday, Marion said he already has lost three pounds this season.

"I just got to stay in the weight room and away from junk food," Marion said. "I've got to make sure that I keep the weight on me."

If he doesn't, Marion is worried that he could get punished, especially on the defensive end.

"Having to guard somebody bigger than me means I've got to work that much harder to stay in front of them and keep them off the boards," Marion said. "But, hey, that's reality. Know what I'm saying? It's going to happen.

"All year."

He may be able to pick on somebody his own size Wednesday night at Utah. The Jazz has been starting 225-pound Andrei Kirilenko at power forward.
 

BC867

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Where have all the Centers gone
Long time passing
Where have all the Centers gone
Long time ago

Where have all the Centers gone
Gone to other teams, every one

When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
 

F-Dog

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The thing I don't get is, why not Joe Johnson at PF?

If they're going to go that small, that is.

I hope that the problem will be partly solved when Zarko gets comfortable...
 
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Joe Mama

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Originally posted by F-Dog
The thing I don't get is, why not Joe Johnson at PF?

If they're going to go that small, that is.

I hope that the problem will be partly solved when Zarko gets comfortable...

Against the Lakers and was Joe Johnson at power forward... not Shawn Marion. And frankly Joe Johnson did every bit as well as Amare Stoudemire.

Joe Mama
 

JCSunsfan

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Originally posted by slinslin
Joe Johnson is doing a pretty good job against most centers. Aferall he is 6'8 and quite strong.

Yep, thats our new line up

1 Steph
2 Knight
3 Casey
4 Marion
5 JJ

We're thinking of dealing Amare for Speedy Claxton, and then bringing Mugsy Bogues out of retirement to be our backup 4.

That's the Suns new marketing slogan.

"Anyone over 6-8 is just a klutz!"
 

ASUCHRIS

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I fail to understand why the Suns don't stick with a lineup of Marbury, Johnson, Marion, Stoudemire and Voskhul, and then sub players in, based on position. Why do we have Marion guarding power forwards? Not only will this wear him down, but he clearly isn't happy about it. While Voskhul isn't wonderful, he is certainly serviceable, and allows the suns to at least match up with other teams.
 

dyle_ph1

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Originally posted by ASUCHRIS
I fail to understand why the Suns don't stick with a lineup of Marbury, Johnson, Marion, Stoudemire and Voskhul, and then sub players in, based on position. Why do we have Marion guarding power forwards? Not only will this wear him down, but he clearly isn't happy about it. While Voskhul isn't wonderful, he is certainly serviceable, and allows the suns to at least match up with other teams.

I noticed in the two games that I've seen that it's more to accomodate penny and jj. FJ wants Penny in there at the end of games but doesn't want to pull JJ so he goes with a marbury penny jj marion amare/voskhul lineup. Height-wise, it's a decent lineup but marion is still going to end up guarding bigger power forwards.
 
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Joe Mama

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Well, it's difficult to argue with the small lineups when they work. Against the Lakers the other night it was the small lineups that put the game within reach.

It also makes it a lot easier to substitute based on position when they have enough personnel at each position if people get into foul trouble.

Joe Mama
 

F-Dog

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The Suns have been going small because they only have six useful players at the moment, and two of them are foul-prone.


IIRC, Joe Johnson played PF against San Antonio (as Malik Rose-stopper) and Cleveland (forcing Boozer to the bench) as well as the Lakers. He's obviously better-built for the job than Marion, since he's about an inch taller and 20 pounds heavier. Plus, Joe J actually seems to play pretty well at PF.

If it wasn't for all of this lip flapping, I would think that the Suns agreed with me (us) about keeping Marion at SF.
 

ASUCHRIS

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Originally posted by Joe Mama
Well, it's difficult to argue with the small lineups when they work. Against the Lakers the other night it was the small lineups that put the game within reach.

It also makes it a lot easier to substitute based on position when they have enough personnel at each position if people get into foul trouble.

Joe Mama

I agree, when we get Scott Williams back, and if Zarko can contribute on a greater basis, we will be in better shape. Beyond foul problems, I don't understand why they don't stick longer with the starting five. Having Marion guarding power forwards in any situation seems stupid.
 
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Joe Mama

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Originally posted by ASUCHRIS
I agree, when we get Scott Williams back, and if Zarko can contribute on a greater basis, we will be in better shape. Beyond foul problems, I don't understand why they don't stick longer with the starting five. Having Marion guarding power forwards in any situation seems stupid.

I'm telling you. Shawn Marion has not played more than a handful of minutes at power forward this season. Joe Johnson has played some power forward, but he's done a decent job. He's also had help from double teams.

That's why I really haven't complained much about Shawn Marion playing power forward. It just hasn't happened enough to really merit the gripes.

Joe Mama
 

Errntknght

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I agree with Joe and FDog that it's been more JJ at PF than Marion thus far. And not doing too badly - on defense.

I somewhat disagree with Joe about the small lineup being the catalyst against the Lakers - we really came back against the second unit of the Lakers, which Phil left on the floor longer than usual. At the time I thought he was just toying with Suns - let them get their hopes up against the subs then bring the first team back and snatch the game away. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see him do that this year to keep his guys from getting complacent.

I read the article in paper where Frank went on at length about his reasons for continuing to start JJ in place of Penny - essentially that JJ is playing such great defense that it was worth it despite his shooting woes. I liked the part where Frank says he told JJ to just keep playing strong defense and his offense will come. I mean, that is the right way to bolster JJ's confidence. (What Frank didn't say was that JJ's stellar defense was not against SGs but against post players which allows him to go with small lineups.) But I don't think it's necessarily the best thing for the team - the whole offense is really ragged without Penny. I'm not a big fan of Penny's but you can't deny he made FJ's putrid offensive scheme look less bad all last year.
 
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Joe Mama

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Originally posted by Errntknght
I somewhat disagree with Joe about the small lineup being the catalyst against the Lakers - we really came back against the second unit of the Lakers, which Phil left on the floor longer than usual. At the time I thought he was just toying with Suns - let them get their hopes up against the subs then bring the first team back and snatch the game away. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see him do that this year to keep his guys from getting complacent.

Phil Jackson did the same thing against Milwaukee last night. Milwaukee had an eight point lead when the Lakers' reserves went back to the bench. With some terrible officiating in the starting five back in the game the Lakers came back and won the game.

Joe Mama
 

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Announcer: "And now back to the ESPY awards. Here's our Master of Ceremonies, Charles Barkley."

Charles: "Thank you. Now for the award everyone's been waiting for, Dufus of the Year. I'll just open the envelope. And the winner of NBA Dufus of the Year award is . . . Bryan Colangelo, General Manager of the Phoenix Suns. C'mon up, Bryan."

Charles: "Here's your well deserved award, Bryan. Hee hee."

Bryan: "Thank you, Chuck. I want to thank four guys who helped keep this award a secret -- Paul Westphal, Danny Ainge, Scott Skiles, and Frank Johnson.

"But I especially want to thank the man whose guidance and inspiration made this all possible -- my father, Jerry Colangelo. I'm happy I could carry on his dream of fielding an NBA team without a Center. Thank you and good night." :D
 

BC867

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Dufus Award -- Part II

What's this? As the credits rolled, Bryan Colangelo returned to the stage and slammed his trophy to the floor, saying, "I don't want no stinking Dufus award." Then added, with a twinkle in his eye, "I just got us a 290-lb. Center."

Former Suns "Center" Amare Stoudemire and "Power Forwards" Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion gave Bryan a standing ovation.

Meanwhile, outside the auditorium, Jerry Colangelo was being taken away for observation by two men in white jackets, as he kept repeating, "We don't need a Center. We don't need a Center."

Good job, Bryan! :thumbup:
 
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newfan101

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Did Jerry beat you up as a child? This OCD behavior toward berating him in every post seems to suggest that. All this because he failed to land that magical franchise center, which you, for some bizzare reason, believe he's done on purpose?

Let me tell you, since the Suns became a team 35 years ago, 16 centers have won a championship (including former Phoenix Sun Luc Longley, and the less then venerable Bill Cartwright). 3 were in the league before the Suns, in Russell, Chamberlain and Willis Reed. Of the remaining 11, ONLY Jack Sikma and Bill Laimbeer were available to the Suns when they drafted. That's it. And great ones who didn't win championships, such as Ewing, Mourning, Sampson, and Mutombo, were also never available.

As far as trading for a great center, well Shaq, Duncan, Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing and Unseld were NEVER traded in their Career. EVER. (Well ... Ewing at the end, in a trade that proved disasterous for Seatle) Kareem was traded once, after demanding to go to either LA or New York. Parrish was traded but once, in what is considered the most lopsided trade in NBA history. Mourning was traded but once after threatening to leave via free agency, and scared away all Western teams because he wouldn't play there. Cowens, Walton, and Sampson were only traded after age or injury ruined their career. Only Moses Malone was traded more than once in his prime. The second and third times he was traded, he failed to take his team past the first round.

But, I guess in your mind, Jerry's a bad owner because he didn't buck the trend and force these teams to trade their franchise centers. Or he's a bad owner not taking Jack Sikma or Bill Laimbeer, or maybe Vlade Divac. Or he's a bad owner because that elusive championship rode on the shoulders of some 7 foot white stiff that's easy to get, and Jerry didn't get him. Or forced his coaches not to play him. In my mind, he's done the best with the cards he's been delt.

And by the way, if Bryon deserves a dufus award, it's for this last move ... aquiring an overweight, overpaid center!
 
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SirStefan32

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As long as we are getting ready to rummble, I'm standing in BC's corner. He is absolutely right. Nobody expects Shaq, Duncan, Divac, or anything like that. All we want is a power forward to be power forwards, and Centers to be centers. We want two guards, two forwards and a center in the game. That's all. We don't want Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion to be Power forwards, while the most talented power forward is playing out of position on 5.
 

elindholm

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Nobody expects Shaq, Duncan, Divac, or anything like that.

Then who, specifically, do you expect? Because if you expect Jahidi White, you might as well keep expecting him. I can't imagine he'll merit as much as 20 minutes a game, and he certainly won't be on the floor in crunch time.

I'm all for having centers play center and power forwards playing power forward. But being big, strong, and slow does not automatically make someone an NBA center. Some people on this board, BC867 first among them, seem very reluctant to accept that.

Voskuhl has been getting more time and more important minutes this season. To me, that's a step in the right direction. But taking on another year of salary-cap hell in the name of getting someone "big" isn't.
 

SirStefan32

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I never said I was excited about the trade. If you look at my post in the trade thread, I stated that this is a bad move in terms of financies.

I understand that being big, strong, and slow doesn't make somebody a real center, but it sure makes them more of a center than JJ or Shawn Marion are power forwards.

I would rather have Jahidi While on 5 and Amare Stoudemire on 4 than Stoudemire on 5 and JJ or Marion on 4, thank you very much. That is common sense Eric.

Voskhul getting more minutes is indeed a step in the right direction. Letting Johnson and Marion play power forwards for extended amount of time is a huge step in the wrong direction. What is so hard about having a legitimate Center and a legitimate PF in the game for more than 25 minutes?

Stefan
 

newfan101

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Originally posted by SirStefan32
As long as we are getting ready to rummble, I'm standing in BC's corner. He is absolutely right. Nobody expects Shaq, Duncan, Divac, or anything like that. All we want is a power forward to be power forwards, and Centers to be centers. We want two guards, two forwards and a center in the game. That's all. We don't want Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion to be Power forwards, while the most talented power forward is playing out of position on 5.

But the point is, with the notable exeption of the Jordan led Bulls, No team has EVER won a championship playing two big stiffs all 48 minutes a game. Every other champion since the Suns came in the league has had an exceptional or franchise center on their team, and as I previously mentioned, the Suns have only had an opportunity of getting two in their ENTIRE history ... Jack Sikma and Bill Laimbeer.

I guess if 29 out of 35 champions having great centers isn't enough proof that big stiffs don't win, then there's no hope in ever changing your mind.
 
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