Guarding bigger players test for Marion

SirStefan32

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No team has ever won playing three guards, and a small forward pretenting to be a power forward, and a power forward pretending to be a center.

Yeah, we should play Barbosa and Marbury in the backcourt, and Jacobsen, Johnson and Hardaway in the frontcourt. We would win the chamionship if we did that. :rolleyes:

Even big stiffs can grab rebounds and take away space better than athletic shooting guards like Johnson.
 

elindholm

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I would rather have Jahidi While on 5 and Amare Stoudemire on 4 than Stoudemire on 5 and JJ or Marion on 4, thank you very much.

So would I, but that's a little like saying I'd rather have my fingernails peeled off than have hot pokers shoved into my eyeballs. Neither is exactly cause for celebration.
 

SirStefan32

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Originally posted by elindholm
I would rather have Jahidi While on 5 and Amare Stoudemire on 4 than Stoudemire on 5 and JJ or Marion on 4, thank you very much.

So would I, but that's a little like saying I'd rather have my fingernails peeled off than have hot pokers shoved into my eyeballs. Neither is exactly cause for celebration.

Well, if somebody was about to shove hot pokers into my eyballs and then decide to just peel off my fingernails, I'd be singing, dancing and celebrating their decision.:D
 

elindholm

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Well, if somebody was about to shove hot pokers into my eyballs and then decide to just peel off my fingernails, I'd be singing, dancing and celebrating their decision.

LOL
 

newfan101

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The Suns have always played centers at the center position. BC's issue, as well as yours, seems to be the 10-15 minutes a game in which a power forward is playing center. Like THAT'S the reason for the Suns failure to win a championship. You're basically saying that when players like Joel Kramer, Larry Nance, Tom Chambers, Danny Manning, and now Amare play 10 minutes at center, instead of such noteworthy's as Bayard Forrest, Rich Kelly, Andrew Lang, Danny Shayes, and now Jahadi White, it's ruining the Suns chances at ever winning a championship. I just think that is an insane stance to take. History proves it just doesn't make a difference when you don't have a great center.

BTW: nice follow up on the eye poker joke! :)
 

SirStefan32

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Thanks. :D

I think there is a missunderstanding here- I don't have a problem with Amare Stoudemire shifts to 5 for 10- 15 minutes. I really don't. I have a problem with another guard or a SF moving to 4. That is the issue here. Play two big PF's, that's fine. I liked Outlaw and Amare on 4 and 5 last year, and Zarko on 4 and Amare on 5 this year. I am just against guards pretending to be Centers.
 

newfan101

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Well that's certainly reasonable. But two things.

One, I think BC would disagree even with that. From what I've read, he thinks there is some evil lurking in Jerry that forces his coaches to not play a center all 48 minutes, and that's been killing our team. And he has a secret, ego driven fantasy of winning a championship without a center, and has purposely not traded for the hundreds of great ones that have been available. And ultimately, it's those 10 minutes a game in which a power foward plays center that make him an unsuccessful owner. That is, of course, because winning consistantly doesn't matter if you don't have a championship, and the Bayard Forrest's and Danny Shayes of the world could have won us one if Jerry would just let his coaches play them more.

Two, I agree that playing 4 guards and a power forward is suicide most of the time. But much has to do with matchups and lighting a fire under an undermotivated team. Plus, unlike the Don Nelson teams in Golden State, we seem to do it more in small spurts based on the nature of the game, rather than as a rule of thumb. The exception is the 97' Suns, which consistantly used Manning at center with 4 guards. But that lineup also nearly stole a playoff series from Seatle.
 
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BC867

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Originally posted by Chaplin
Come on BC, respond--let's get ready to RUUUUUMBLEEEEE!! :cool:
Hey Chap, I'm really enjoying the different points of view in this post.

As G.M., then Managing General Partner, Jerry has the right to lead the team in whatever direction he's comfortable with. And, as a Suns fan for over 30 years, I have the right to be frustrated with that direction. I'd rather not be, but I am.

Back in the '70's they called the Suns a "finesse" team. Now it's called small-ball. Either way, it's operating from a position of weakness. Every game, every season, an uphill battle.

It affects the players, the coaching staff, the fans, the Press, makes it easier for our opponents, and most of all, influences the Refs. Weak teams don't get the calls.

I especially disagree with the Suns approach of putting the team's 5 best players on the floor with the game on the line, regardless of position . . . rather than the best player at each position.

The Suns had one Cinderella year early. For the rest of their history, the closest they came to becoming a contender was when Cotton was allowed to bring in some fresh ideas (namely Charles Barkley).

My favorite Suns team had the league's prototype Power Forward, Maurice Lucas (the enforcer); the league's first 6'10" Small Forward, Larry Nance; and a backcourt of Walter Davis and Dennis Johnson. With a solid Center, that team was a dynasty waiting to happen.

Instead, Coach John MacLeod couldn't handle creative, Championship caliber ballplayers, and Mo and DJ were gone. And so were our dreams of building a contender.

With the exception of the Barkley/Fitzsimmons years, the Suns have been a "pretty" team -- put on a good show at home; don't embarass yourself on the road; and make an appearance in the post-season. But unlike the Utah Jazz market, ours is too saturated to prosper with a "good enough is good enough" approach.

Now here we sit with 3/5 of a contending team -- Amare, The Matrix, and Marbury at PF, SF, and PG. All we need is a decent shooting 2-Guard and a role-playing legitimate Center (not a superstar, as some alluded to earlier in this thread). And a decent bench. And using each player within their natural positions, to get their best performance, night after night.

To get other teams trying to match up with us, rather than vice versa.

If used properly, the Suns can take that next step now. And I'm excited about it!

A basic 8-man rotation of White and Jake at Center; Amare, Marion, and is it Cabarkapa at Forward; with Marbury, Johnson, and Penny at Guard. And with Scott Williams returning as 3rd Center; and the rest of the team filling in for injuries, foul trouble, spot minutes, blowouts, etc. . . .

We could turn this around over the next month and build a contender for years to come.

Or, as someone said, White could wind up in Big Jake's spot on the bench. Then Amare, Marion, and JJ can ruin their careers, and get pissed off, playing out of position.

Here's hoping the Suns do the right thing!
 

newfan101

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Originally posted by BC867



My favorite Suns team had the league's prototype Power Forward, Maurice Lucas (the enforcer); the league's first 6'10" Small Forward, Larry Nance; and a backcourt of Walter Davis and Dennis Johnson. With a solid Center, that team was a dynasty waiting to happen.


James Edwards and Alvin Adams were "Solid." Exactly what center could the Suns have traded for, without giving up that core, that would have been an upgrade? Seriously, who did they fail to get? The fact is, that was your so-called "balanced" team, and they couldn't beat Kareem and Magic. And even if those horrible trades weren't made by MacLeod, they still would have never beaten them.

Originally posted by BC867



Now here we sit with 3/5 of a contending team -- Amare, The Matrix, and Marbury at PF, SF, and PG. All we need is a decent shooting 2-Guard and a role-playing legitimate Center (not a superstar, as some alluded to earlier in this thread). And a decent bench. And using each player within their natural positions, to get their best performance, night after night.

Interesting. The last "role-playing legitimate Center, not a superstar" to play on a championship team was none other than ... Luc Longley. Should we bring him back, BC? The only other one was Bill Cartwright. Both played with MJ. There has NEVER, REPEAT ...NEVER been another non superstar, role playing center to play on a championship team.

The hope is that the age of the center is dying, and when Shaq is gone, some teams WILL start winning without a superstar center. I think the Suns certainly have a chance. But, by no means, will a championship come to the Suns in the near future because Jahidi White, or whoever the backup center is, gets all of the minutes as a backup. It's just not as important as you make it out to be.
 

elindholm

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There has NEVER, REPEAT ...NEVER been another non superstar, role playing center to play on a championship team.

I think you overrate Bill Laimbeer. Sure, he was better than Voskuhl or whoever, but he certainly wasn't a superstar. Did he ever make an All-Star team?
 
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Joe Mama

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Originally posted by elindholm
There has NEVER, REPEAT ...NEVER been another non superstar, role playing center to play on a championship team.

I think you overrate Bill Laimbeer. Sure, he was better than Voskuhl or whoever, but he certainly wasn't a superstar. Did he ever make an All-Star team?

I was going to write the same thing, but I thought maybe he meant since Luc Longley. Of course only two teams have won it since then.

Joe Mama
 

newfan101

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I agree he wasn't a "superstar," but he was a four time all-star, and a rebounding champion several times. He was the third best center in the east during the last half of the 80's. But, I'll agree, he was the weakest of centers not playing with Jordan to win a championship.

But there is not a center out there today that is attainable that puts up the numbers he put up.
 

elindholm

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he was a four time all-star, and a rebounding champion several times.

Ah, I did not realize that. I stand corrected.
 

Errntknght

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I believe the Sonics won a title with Jack Sikma at center - he was not just a role player by any means, but he wasn't a superstar either. Heck, I wouldn't call Robert Parish a superstar but Boston had a tremendous frontcourt with Bird and McKale flanking the 'Chief'. Didn't the Celts also win a title or two with Dave Cowans at center... I think they did. The Knicks won with Willis Reed at center - who was playing on a bum knee by that time. Reed, Debusschere, Bill Bradley, Earl Monroe and 'Clyde'... Phil Jackson off the bench.

One trouble with the statement we're replying to, is that there is a heck of a lot of lattitude between 'a non-superstar' and 'a role playing' center. In my estimation Luc Longley stands alone as the truly weak center on a championship team - Bill Cartwright was quite competent.
 
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newfan101

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Originally posted by Errntknght

One trouble with the statement we're replying to, is that there is a heck of a lot of lattitude between 'a non-superstar' and 'a role playing' center.

I totally agree. Actually, I think I pointed out earlier that Sikma and Laimbeer were actually attainable centers. But Willis Reed, Cowens, and Parrish are all hall of famers (Parrish soon will be, I'm sure), despite not being labeled a "superstar."

But regardless, the point I was trying to make is that the Suns haven't been in a position to get anyone of that caliber, superstar or Parrish level star, for almost their entire history. And all of the centers who've been on champions, with the exception of the Bulls centers, (and perhaps Sikma), played at such a high level for their position that almost all of them will end up in the hall of fame. Not because they were stars, but because they were great centers. Because competent, good centers are so rare, players like Parrish and Laimbeer and Cowens almost have to be considered stars because of the huge discrepancy between them and the next tier.

Unfortunately, people still come on this board and say the Suns have "dufus" management because they try to win without a center, without realizing the near impossibility of landing one who can play at a level seen on the majority of champions throughout history. It's easy to get frustrated and say "the Suns need a big man," but getting a couple of mediocre centers to play all 48 minutes, regardless of their skill level, in order to make your team “balanced,” has never been the key to winning a championship. (Except, of course, for teams led by MJ.) I've had problems with many deals the C's have made in the past. But considering our other owner in this town, the consistent playoff level the Suns always play at, and the difficulty of getting that rare center that can single handedly lead a team to a championship, I feel much of the "big man" criticism they receive is unwarranted.
 

newfan101

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Not to beat a dead horse, but check out this link to NBA.com's "greatest players" page. Every retired center to win a championship in the last 35 years, except Sikma, Longley, and Cartwright, is listed.

Just thought it was interesting.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/

Incidently, they are: Russell, Chamberlain, Reed, Cowens, Abdul Jabbar, Walton, Unseld, Sikma, Parrish, Moses, Laimbeer, Cartwright, Olajuwon, Longley, Shaq, and Duncan/Robinson.
 
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