SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
You know, I think that our centers are not bad, but rather, are not used properly. You can't give somebody 15 minutes a game and expect results. I'd like to see any of our centers play 30 minutes a game.
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- Thread starter Joe Mama
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PhiLLmattiC
Last of a Dying Breed
Re: Wasn't this thread about
Yeah...I remember months when people couldn't stop talking about penny
Yeah...I remember months when people couldn't stop talking about penny
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
If I understand your argumentation well you would take Voskuhl over Mohammed because Mohammed had one and a half good seasons as a decent starting C while Voskuhl hadn't.
Keep on thinking that Mohammed is as bad as you like.
If Voskuhl will ever put up more than 10PPG/8RPG, remind me and I will admit that you were right unless also Mohammed will put up more than 10PPG/8RPG till then.
SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
Give Jake 30 minutes a night, and he just might average 10 and 8.
Jake is a very good rebounder, I think he could get 8 boards a game. 10 points really isn't much. For heaven's sake, Scott Pollard averaged 10 point, and Jake is definitely not more challanged than Scott Pollard.
Jake is a very good rebounder, I think he could get 8 boards a game. 10 points really isn't much. For heaven's sake, Scott Pollard averaged 10 point, and Jake is definitely not more challanged than Scott Pollard.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
The key word is MIGHT.
Voskuhl MIGHT average 10/8 while Mohammed INDEED averaged 10/8.
BTW, if Voskuhl is really able to average 10/8 why isn't he our starting C?
JCSunsfan
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I really like Jake's game and I'm glad he back, but I'm afraid that Jake would average six fouls sooner than 30 minutes.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
elindholm hadn't prove that Mohammed isn't that great because nobody stated that Mohammed is that great.
Nobody (of course even elindholm) can prove this because it's a pure speculation.
You could easily understand it if you would have checked what I replied to.
elindholm said that "we're just not talking about a starting caliber player here".
I proved that we are because Mohammed's numbers last year were better than numbers of 13 team's starting C's.
I still think that Mohammed is a better C than Voskuhl because he already proved once that he is able to putting up decent numbers as a starting C while Voskuhl didn't yet.
But anyway Mohammed can't be worse than Voskuhl and Ratliff is better than Tsakalidis/Williams together because Tsakalidis played only 22 games (you know you can't ignore the injury issue) so Ratliff/Mohammed is a better C rotation than Tsakalidis/Voskuhl/Williams.
SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
Right, the key word is "might." Bo argument there. I would like to see what he could do with 30 minutes a night.
Because he plays for our beloved Phoenix Suns, and a wanna-be-coach Frank Johnson who are in love with small ball. Suns centers only combine for some 25, maybe 30 minutes. FJ and Jerry would rather have Outlaw or Langhi in the game then Tsakalidis, Voskhul or Williams. Voskhul did indeed start last year, and he had some nice games. I guarantee you that our centers would be more productive if they had Van Gundy or Dunleavy to coach them.
elindholm
edited for content
elindholm said that "we're just not talking about a starting caliber player here".
I proved that we are because Mohammed's numbers last year were better than numbers of 13 team's starting C's.
Huh? Compare apples to apples, please. This year's Mohammed isn't matching this year's numbers. You put a lot of stock in what Mohammed did a year and a half ago. I don't. You "proved" that we are talking about someone who (by your analysis) used to be a starting caliber C.
Is Marc Jackson a starting caliber center (or PF)? How about Dan Gadzuric?
Centers, more than any other players, have stats that are system-dependent. Luc Longley was a good player for the Bulls because the system brought out his strengths. That didn't happen in Phoenix.
Mohammed, for one (or maybe one and a half) years, was in a system that enabled him to put up decent numbers. Remember that this was on a terrible team. Now he's on a team that is a little better (I guess), he's hurt all the time, and even when he is healthy he doesn't contribute.
You think that, because he appeared to be good once, that means he's good forever. You are welcome to think that. I think that we're talking about someone who has been in the league for five years and looked decent in 1.3 of those years.
Anyway, I already conceded the argument, so that's fine, but don't be snide about how I have presented my point.
I proved that we are because Mohammed's numbers last year were better than numbers of 13 team's starting C's.
Huh? Compare apples to apples, please. This year's Mohammed isn't matching this year's numbers. You put a lot of stock in what Mohammed did a year and a half ago. I don't. You "proved" that we are talking about someone who (by your analysis) used to be a starting caliber C.
Is Marc Jackson a starting caliber center (or PF)? How about Dan Gadzuric?
Centers, more than any other players, have stats that are system-dependent. Luc Longley was a good player for the Bulls because the system brought out his strengths. That didn't happen in Phoenix.
Mohammed, for one (or maybe one and a half) years, was in a system that enabled him to put up decent numbers. Remember that this was on a terrible team. Now he's on a team that is a little better (I guess), he's hurt all the time, and even when he is healthy he doesn't contribute.
You think that, because he appeared to be good once, that means he's good forever. You are welcome to think that. I think that we're talking about someone who has been in the league for five years and looked decent in 1.3 of those years.
Anyway, I already conceded the argument, so that's fine, but don't be snide about how I have presented my point.
SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
Ratliff is not exactly a textbook definition of a healthy player either. Perhaps you are right, Ratliff/ Muhammed might be a better rotation than Tsakalidis/Voskhul/Williams. Originally, I stated that the Suns center rotation is terrible, but after thinking about it, I just think they are not used properly. Theo and Nazr get more playing time than Jakes and Scott, so I am not sure it's fair to compare the Suns center rotation to anybody, because Outlaw and Amare get more minutes on 5 than either of the centers. It's a coaching problem.
elindholm
edited for content
Oh, and by the way, I never said Voskuhl was better than Mohammed. I said I "would rather have" Voskuhl. And I would. Voskuhl, in my opinion, still has the opportunity to improve (he is the same age as Mohammed, but less experienced), and he is healthier.
SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
RIGHT! That's exactly right!
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
Yes,it's true but you were the one who stated based on LAST YEAR'S stats that we aren't talking about a starting caliber C.
I proved that based on last year's stats we are.
Good point.
Probably he is although I don't really like him.
BTW,I think that Mohammed is better than Jackson.
He isn't.
Who knows?
Or maybe he was in a system that didn't enable him to put up those numbers what he could have averaged in another system.
Actually ATL is worse this year than last year.
He is a backup of Ratliff so he gets much less PT.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
I agree I never understood why can't Tsakalidis get consistent minutes or even Voskuhl.
Frank Johnson thought that it's better to use a 5-man C rotation with more dynamic players and the results are seeming to prove his right.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
Oh,and by the way I never said that you said that Voskuhl was better than Mohammed.
elindholm
edited for content
Yes,it's true but you were the one who stated based on LAST YEAR'S stats that we aren't talking about a starting caliber C.
I proved that based on last year's stats we are.
Okay, I was wrong on this point. Mohammed's statistics in 01-02 were worthy of a starting caliber center.
How about Dan Gadzuric? He isn't.
But his numbers this season are similar to Mohammed's.
He is a backup of Ratliff so he gets much less PT.
Ratliff averages 30 minutes per game. Mohammed, when healthy, was averaging less than 13. Who was getting the other 5+ minutes per game? Mohammed couldn't even earn the minutes he was supposed to get as Ratliff's backup.
I proved that based on last year's stats we are.
Okay, I was wrong on this point. Mohammed's statistics in 01-02 were worthy of a starting caliber center.
How about Dan Gadzuric? He isn't.
But his numbers this season are similar to Mohammed's.
He is a backup of Ratliff so he gets much less PT.
Ratliff averages 30 minutes per game. Mohammed, when healthy, was averaging less than 13. Who was getting the other 5+ minutes per game? Mohammed couldn't even earn the minutes he was supposed to get as Ratliff's backup.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
Yes,they are but Gadzuric didn't average 10/8 last year (what a surprise!).
BTW,I would take Gadzuric over Voskuhl.
Good point although it doesn't prove that Mohammed is a worse backup than Voskuhl because neither Voskuhl could take more than 12 min. from Outlaw,Tsakalidis and Williams.
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Nazr Mohamed is as injury prone as Theo Ratliff. I just read somewhere that he's out for the rest of the season with a fracture in his leg.
If I was advising one of the centers who will be in this year's draft (David Harrison, Chris Marcus, etc.) I would tell them the best thing they can do to increase their stock is practice their mid-range shot. A big body center who can consistently hit a 10-15 foot shot is a hot commodity right now.
Joe Mama
If I was advising one of the centers who will be in this year's draft (David Harrison, Chris Marcus, etc.) I would tell them the best thing they can do to increase their stock is practice their mid-range shot. A big body center who can consistently hit a 10-15 foot shot is a hot commodity right now.
Joe Mama
Errntknght
Registered User
"I agree I never understood why can't Tsakalidis get consistent minutes or even Voskuhl.
Frank Johnson thought that it's better to use a 5-man C rotation with more dynamic players and the results are seeming to prove his right."
I haven't seen anything that proved FJ right in this regard. I certainly think it is a pity that Frank didn't start Voskuhl and play him 20+ minutes a game for a dozen games or so - he seems close enough to what we need to give him a serious opportunity to make it - or break it. Worst case we'd know whether he's worth a roster spot or not. I don't mind it if Frank has decided from practices and the bit of game action that LIttle Jake is not worth keeping - but I'd be willing to give odds that FJ brings him back next year, which means he didn't find out something that is important to know. Opportunity knocked by FJ was busy thinking small, or not at all.
Googs is going to help our front court - he is smart, experienced and a good passer which are very helpful is FJ disorganized offense. Besides he and Amare complement each other of the offensive end. They'll get beat up some on the defensive end but, heck, that's happening to the other combos Frank uses anyway.
The reason that Penny is so curiously effective for the Suns this year is that, like Googs (and even moreso), he can cope with the lack of organization in the offense whereas guys like JJ can't. I know Marbs gets way more assists than Penny but nearly all of Marbs assists are kickouts for long shots - which, most days, are tough shots for our players. Penny gets more of his assists to guys going to the basket - which are higher percentage besides putting at least one guy in place for an offensive rebound. Often it puts two guys in place because Penny knows the guys is going to shoot so he can move in before the shot goes up.
Strange note: FJ said one reason he wanted to go with the 'motion' was to avoid playcalling from the sidelines... now we know what he really meant is that he'd rather diagram them in the air from the sidelines.
Frank Johnson thought that it's better to use a 5-man C rotation with more dynamic players and the results are seeming to prove his right."
I haven't seen anything that proved FJ right in this regard. I certainly think it is a pity that Frank didn't start Voskuhl and play him 20+ minutes a game for a dozen games or so - he seems close enough to what we need to give him a serious opportunity to make it - or break it. Worst case we'd know whether he's worth a roster spot or not. I don't mind it if Frank has decided from practices and the bit of game action that LIttle Jake is not worth keeping - but I'd be willing to give odds that FJ brings him back next year, which means he didn't find out something that is important to know. Opportunity knocked by FJ was busy thinking small, or not at all.
Googs is going to help our front court - he is smart, experienced and a good passer which are very helpful is FJ disorganized offense. Besides he and Amare complement each other of the offensive end. They'll get beat up some on the defensive end but, heck, that's happening to the other combos Frank uses anyway.
The reason that Penny is so curiously effective for the Suns this year is that, like Googs (and even moreso), he can cope with the lack of organization in the offense whereas guys like JJ can't. I know Marbs gets way more assists than Penny but nearly all of Marbs assists are kickouts for long shots - which, most days, are tough shots for our players. Penny gets more of his assists to guys going to the basket - which are higher percentage besides putting at least one guy in place for an offensive rebound. Often it puts two guys in place because Penny knows the guys is going to shoot so he can move in before the shot goes up.
Strange note: FJ said one reason he wanted to go with the 'motion' was to avoid playcalling from the sidelines... now we know what he really meant is that he'd rather diagram them in the air from the sidelines.
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hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
This is an exaggeration.
Ratliff had a chronical hip injury and he missed about 30 games in 99/00 and in 00/01 and he missed the entire 01/02 season while this is Mohammed's 1st injury and he will miss 45 games.
Yes, but only for the record Marcus is that injury that he probably won't be a 1st round and it's still fity-fifty if Harrison will declare this year or not.
BTW, how many big body C's can we list in NBA who can consistently hit a 10-15ft J?
Drobnjak,Nesterovic, Brad Miller, Grant ,Bradley so it's difficult to find one even in NBA.
elindholm
edited for content
BTW, how many big body C's can we list in NBA who can consistently hit a 10-15ft J?
I think Joe Mama's point was, just like you say, it is uncommon, so that is what makes it valuable.
Drobnjak,Nesterovic, Brad Miller, Grant ,Bradley so it's difficult to find one even in NBA.
Divac, Sabonis, D. Robinson, maybe more?
I think Joe Mama's point was, just like you say, it is uncommon, so that is what makes it valuable.
Drobnjak,Nesterovic, Brad Miller, Grant ,Bradley so it's difficult to find one even in NBA.
Divac, Sabonis, D. Robinson, maybe more?
elindholm
edited for content
BTW,I would take Gadzuric over Voskuhl.
I get it, you just hate Voskuhl!
Good point although it doesn't prove that Mohammed is a worse backup than Voskuhl because neither Voskuhl could take more than 12 min. from Outlaw,Tsakalidis and Williams.
Yes, this is true. But Voskuhl is on a team that (1) is better -- even if they aren't better at C, (2) already has a young interior player they are trying to develop as much as possible -- Stoudemire is seeing minutes at C that should be going to someone else, and (3) hates true centers anyway. So he has a lot going against him.
I already agreed with you that Voskuhl has not looked very good this year. I think he will look a little better when he gets to a team that will use him, particularly if it is a bad team with few options. But I could be wrong.
I get it, you just hate Voskuhl!
Good point although it doesn't prove that Mohammed is a worse backup than Voskuhl because neither Voskuhl could take more than 12 min. from Outlaw,Tsakalidis and Williams.
Yes, this is true. But Voskuhl is on a team that (1) is better -- even if they aren't better at C, (2) already has a young interior player they are trying to develop as much as possible -- Stoudemire is seeing minutes at C that should be going to someone else, and (3) hates true centers anyway. So he has a lot going against him.
I already agreed with you that Voskuhl has not looked very good this year. I think he will look a little better when he gets to a team that will use him, particularly if it is a bad team with few options. But I could be wrong.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
Yes,I understood it and I agree.I just started to wonder who are these C's.
Robinson definitely.
Both Divac and Sabonis are rather finesse post-up players with nice hook-shot they are not really shooters although both have nice shooting touch.
hcsilla
ASFN Lifer
I assume that you are only joking (I'm not sure what that symbol means).Originally posted by elindholm
BTW,I would take Gadzuric over Voskuhl.
I get it, you just hate Voskuhl!
I actually like Voskuhl, he is a servicable role player.
I just think that Gadzuric is a younger, more athletic and more promising version of Voskuhl.
Surgery on stress fracture to end Mohammed's season
ATLANTA -- Atlanta Hawks center Nazr Mohammed will undergo season-ending surgery on a stress fracture in his right foot.
Mohammed
Mohammed missed the first 20 games of the season with a fractured fifth metatarsal. Mohammed was given the option of surgery in November, according to GM Pete Babcock, but he opted to simply rest the foot and see if it would heal on its own.
He was activated on Dec. 10, and in 35 games he has averaged 4.6 points and 3.7 rebounds in 12.7 minutes.
"What (doctors) told him in the fall is that there are two ways to treat this: We go in now and put a screw in. Or we can rest it for six-to-eight weeks,'' Babcock said Saturday. "If you put the screw in, it'll be done. It won't come up again. He would have missed two extra weeks. But then it's over with, done. It's a real common procedure today.
"The rest approach, the danger is it will reoccur. And it often does reoccur. Sometimes it doesn't. You take a chance. That's the direction Nazr wanted to go so that's the way we went. So when this flared up, we weren't surprised at all.''
Dr. David Caborn will insert a screw in Mohammed's foot March 17.
Mohammed, a first-round pick by Utah in 1998, has averaged 6.5 points and 5.1 rebounds over his five-year career with Philadelphia and Atlanta.
OOPS Wrong Thread
ATLANTA -- Atlanta Hawks center Nazr Mohammed will undergo season-ending surgery on a stress fracture in his right foot.
Mohammed
Mohammed missed the first 20 games of the season with a fractured fifth metatarsal. Mohammed was given the option of surgery in November, according to GM Pete Babcock, but he opted to simply rest the foot and see if it would heal on its own.
He was activated on Dec. 10, and in 35 games he has averaged 4.6 points and 3.7 rebounds in 12.7 minutes.
"What (doctors) told him in the fall is that there are two ways to treat this: We go in now and put a screw in. Or we can rest it for six-to-eight weeks,'' Babcock said Saturday. "If you put the screw in, it'll be done. It won't come up again. He would have missed two extra weeks. But then it's over with, done. It's a real common procedure today.
"The rest approach, the danger is it will reoccur. And it often does reoccur. Sometimes it doesn't. You take a chance. That's the direction Nazr wanted to go so that's the way we went. So when this flared up, we weren't surprised at all.''
Dr. David Caborn will insert a screw in Mohammed's foot March 17.
Mohammed, a first-round pick by Utah in 1998, has averaged 6.5 points and 5.1 rebounds over his five-year career with Philadelphia and Atlanta.
OOPS Wrong Thread
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