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That is probably due to the fact that Millen is fearing for his job after the last couple of years. And the Bidwills don't have to worry about that (or Graves yet).
Harry Greene - A contrarian view
- Thread starter Skkorpion
- Start date
That is probably due to the fact that Millen is fearing for his job after the last couple of years. And the Bidwills don't have to worry about that (or Graves yet).
RonF
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Harry's article was informative as usual, the only thing it doesn't address is team chemistry. If everything being equal, all teams have improved, it will depend how this team comes together. I think the changes in player's attitudes will determine how far we go, that, and injuries.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Taking up for Harry
Pity poor Harry Greene for having to be the bearer of bad tidings/predictions twice this season (He put up a similar post earlier in the offseason). He's taking a lot of heat (mostly along the lines of, "Hey, we went 4-0 in the preseason, bee-otch! What do you think now?! Stop being so negative, this team is going to beat the world!"), and has few defenders.
Harry's right in that there are no teams on this schedule whom the Cards massively outweigh in the matchups. Like it or not, this team, talent-wise, ranks down there with four of the teams that Nidan mentioned: Dallas, Chicago, Cincinatti, Detroit, and, I'll add, Houston. I think that Nidan massively underrates the Redskins, as, offensively and defensively, they're way, way better than us (Coles and Gardner v. Gilmore and Foster? Bailey and Smoot v. Barrett and Hill? Please.). To say that, just because we're as bad, or not quite as bad, as they are, we'll finish ahead of all of them, seems like flawed logic to me. Also, just because you've met a guy in meaningless camp practices and like him doesn't mean that he's the second-coming of Rod Woodson.
We all love this team and the players, and when we say that a player is overrated, it's not personal, it's just our opinion.
I don't really know what there is to take up, for, other than to voice my support for Harry and his points. We have a lot of unproven players, and while some (like nidan) are happy to say that unproven players are probably Pro Bowlers, I'm going to think that while some might end up being solid players, I'm guessing that many of them (including those that we're hanging our hopes on, unfortunately) aren't going to pan out. That's the history of the league in general, and this team in particular.
I still agree with the opinion of someone from PFW, who said that the only thing our O-Line has proven is that they're "a bunch of big guys who are hurt all the time." And they're the strength of the team. We're hanging on the hope of quantum leaps in the following areas for this team to end up competitive this season:
Pass Rush
Run-Stopping
Defensive Pass Coverage
Passing Consistency
Turnover ratio
Wide Reciever Production
Pass Protection
Team Health
Special teams play
Basically, every single aspect of the game. I think that part of what Harry's saying is that this isn't the team that began the season 4-2 (the one with Plummer, T. Jones, Mar Tay, David Boston, KVB, and D. Starks). This is the team that ended the season 1-9 (the one with K. Kasper, J. McAddley, D. Barrett, and R. Hill). Will this team be better than that record? Absolutely.
This team has a ton of upside, long-term, but so did Mike Stone, or Johnny Rutlege. Banking on all of these young players to realize their potential immediately in their first season is an easy way to go 3-13. And that's what we seem to be doing. That's where the "pessimism" comes from.
Pity poor Harry Greene for having to be the bearer of bad tidings/predictions twice this season (He put up a similar post earlier in the offseason). He's taking a lot of heat (mostly along the lines of, "Hey, we went 4-0 in the preseason, bee-otch! What do you think now?! Stop being so negative, this team is going to beat the world!"), and has few defenders.
Harry's right in that there are no teams on this schedule whom the Cards massively outweigh in the matchups. Like it or not, this team, talent-wise, ranks down there with four of the teams that Nidan mentioned: Dallas, Chicago, Cincinatti, Detroit, and, I'll add, Houston. I think that Nidan massively underrates the Redskins, as, offensively and defensively, they're way, way better than us (Coles and Gardner v. Gilmore and Foster? Bailey and Smoot v. Barrett and Hill? Please.). To say that, just because we're as bad, or not quite as bad, as they are, we'll finish ahead of all of them, seems like flawed logic to me. Also, just because you've met a guy in meaningless camp practices and like him doesn't mean that he's the second-coming of Rod Woodson.
We all love this team and the players, and when we say that a player is overrated, it's not personal, it's just our opinion. I don't really know what there is to take up, for, other than to voice my support for Harry and his points. We have a lot of unproven players, and while some (like nidan) are happy to say that unproven players are probably Pro Bowlers, I'm going to think that while some might end up being solid players, I'm guessing that many of them (including those that we're hanging our hopes on, unfortunately) aren't going to pan out. That's the history of the league in general, and this team in particular.
I still agree with the opinion of someone from PFW, who said that the only thing our O-Line has proven is that they're "a bunch of big guys who are hurt all the time." And they're the strength of the team. We're hanging on the hope of quantum leaps in the following areas for this team to end up competitive this season:
Pass Rush
Run-Stopping
Defensive Pass Coverage
Passing Consistency
Turnover ratio
Wide Reciever Production
Pass Protection
Team Health
Special teams play
Basically, every single aspect of the game. I think that part of what Harry's saying is that this isn't the team that began the season 4-2 (the one with Plummer, T. Jones, Mar Tay, David Boston, KVB, and D. Starks). This is the team that ended the season 1-9 (the one with K. Kasper, J. McAddley, D. Barrett, and R. Hill). Will this team be better than that record? Absolutely.
This team has a ton of upside, long-term, but so did Mike Stone, or Johnny Rutlege. Banking on all of these young players to realize their potential immediately in their first season is an easy way to go 3-13. And that's what we seem to be doing. That's where the "pessimism" comes from.
Rivercard
Too much good stuff
I understand where you are coming from Kerouac and yes a worse case scenario this year will lead to the doom and gloom that you and Harry predict. And I agree that our O-line needs to live up to the hype. But I have to dissagree with your statement above. This is a much different team than last years 1-9 period team. There are many many new faces that will be contributing major minutes on the field this year - guys who had nothing to do whatsoever with last years team. Blake, Smith, Hodgins, Johnson, Boldin, Pace, Darling, Jackson just to name a few.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Maybe, I don't know. What I do know is that this roster has a lot more in common with the 1-9 team, especially on offense, than it does to the 4-2 team.
Rivercard
Too much good stuff
I respect your opinion but why would you assume that we are closer to the 1-9 version of last year's team? Let's look at some of the "major" losses from the 4-2 version team: Plummer, Boston, Lass, MarTay, Sanders. We've upgraded Plummer and Lass - probably a wash with MarTay and Sanders - and while Boston has great potential, he was not a major contributor last year. What else is missing from the 4-2 version of the 2002 Cards?
Wild Card
Surfin' Bird
K9:
Well, let's see. How has the offense changed since the end of last season?
WR: Foster, Gilmore. One new to the team, one was on IR at the end of last season. Two changes.
QB: Blake. New to the team. Three changes.
RB, FB: Smith, Hodgins. Both new to the team. Five changes.
TE: Jones. Maybe they'll throw him the ball, this year. Five changes, one carryover.
OL: Shelton, Spikes, Kendall, Davis, Clement. One new to the team, one was on IR, two others were out with injuries. Only Shelton, I believe, was on the field for game 16. Nine changes, two carryovers.
Other than the fact that they're suiting up 11 guys in red-and-white, this sure looks like a different offensive squad than the Cards ended last season with.
But maybe that's just me.
WC
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Playmaking ability. Scared DCs. No one on this offense scares anyone. No one. That's what worries me the most, is that there's really nothing for opponent's DCs to worry about, at least not right now, as far as I can see.
Regardless of DB's production last season, opposing Ds had to worry about where he was on the field at all times. Now, there's no one for Ds to worry about, and it feels to me that, without a home-run threat on offense, that teams will probably just sit back and let the offense do try what it wants to, or, worse, attack relentlessly until the O shows that they have something to worry about.
The Cards went 4-2 mostly by smoke and mirrors on defense. Smoke and mirrors only get you to 4-2. There are only so many looks that you can throw at opposing Ds, and Marmie and Mac aren't Bill Belichek. Once the schemes start to break down, can we rely on Pace and Bryant to step up and take over games? I don't know. That makes me worried, and until they show otherwise, I'm assuming that they won't. They might be able to eventually, but probably not in their first years. History has shown that this is probably the case.
SECTION 11
vibraslap
But who cares? Whether or not DC's even pay attention to this team is irrelevant.
I think people are too caught up in fantasy and Madden rankings.
Rivercard
Too much good stuff
Yep - offensively we need a wide receiver to step up and make a name for himself. If that happens we will win some ballgames.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
The names have changes, but I think that the overall song remains the same.
WR: Are Foster and Gilmore head-and-shoulders better than McAddley and Kasper? One's fast and can't catch, the other is slow but makes circus catches? Gee, I don't know, but no one is confusing them with Holt and Bruce.
RB/FB: To me, I expect about the same production from Smith and Shipp. They look kind of like the same player to me, with Shipp heading up and Smith heading down. I don't really consider it an upgrade. While I like fullbacks, I don't think that there's much of a step up or down between the best and the mediocre, and have never really considered the position to be an "impact" one. It's a complementary one. It'll make a good running back a little better, but a great fullback won't make a mediocre back into a good one.
TE: At tight end, Freddie Jones has 3 catches for 24 yards and a TD this preseason. As much as we all, myself included, want to see a big year for Freddie, I'm going to remain skeptical about the desire of coach Sullivan to get F. Jones involved at the expense of his favored wideouts.
Finally, the offensive line hasn't played a down together, our top two backups are inactive at least through the first quarter of the season, and the squad that we put out for the first quarter of the Minnesota game looked awful. Also, I haven't seen anything to suggest that they can stay healthy.
The main difference is Blake. I like him better than Plummer, but he's not a catalyst. How many playoff teams has Blake lead? Oh, zero. How many winning teams has Blake lead? Um, zero. What was he doing immediately after he sealed B-More's playoff absence with a pick? Gee, joking around with teammates on the sideline.
I hate being this negative. I'm excited about the season, and I think that we're going to stay in some games and give some teams some trouble. I'm just going to keep my damn fool mouth shut for a while, because there's no use talking about this until something's shown on the field. There's a difference between "probably not as bad as last year" and "going to the playoffs this year." I believe the former, I'm baffled by the latter.
Re: Re: Harry Greene - A contrarian view
SECTION 11
vibraslap
Re: Re: Re: Harry Greene - A contrarian view
Classic. Line of the day.
Classic. Line of the day.
Wild Card
Surfin' Bird
K9:
I agree with a lot of your post, especially the last paragraph. I, too, doubt that the Cardinals are a playoff team this season.
However, I think that the passing game could be far more productive than at the end of last season. At WR, Foster and Gilmore are starting ahead of Kasper and McAddley, both of whom are available. That implies--to me, at least--that McGinnis, Sullivan, or somebody thinks they're an upgrade. At TE, Freddie Jones is the same player, obviously, but Blake's gone on record saying he's gonna send Jones to the Pro Bowl. At QB, Blake is an improvement over Plummer in almost every measurable way.
(Nit-picking: his 2000 Saints team was 7-3 when Blake went down for the year, and all they had to do was win half their remaining games to make the playoffs.)
I've predicted that this Cardinals team will go 7-9. Unlike Harry, I think there are a couple of "should wins" this season. The first one is this Sunday. If the Cards lose in Detroit, I'll revisit my assumptions. Until then, based on what I've seen in camp and the preseason, I think this is a .500 team, more-or-less.
WC
pinetopred
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Can a LB stay with FJ? Can a safety stick with either our slot WR's? Can a LB stick with Shipp out of the backfield? Sure they can, on some plays, but I would bet the house that we will get a majority of our big plays in the middle of the field this year, because most teams will think they can get away with putting 8 in the box, which inturn frees things up between the hashmarks deeper IMO.
I really like what this team has done, they have taken a ton of pressure off the WR's on the outside, with guys like Boldin/Kasper and Jones over the middle of the field Shipp/Anderson, down the seams Johnson/Gilmore/Foster single covered I see the potential for bigger plays then I ever saw when we had one playmaker in Boston.
It isn't one playmaker that scares DC's, thats easy to gameplan and slowdown, its balance, and a team that can beat you in a number of different ways that scare a DC.
Are we a team that can be balanced, we will see soon enough, but I think we have the makings of a team that is headed in the right direction from a talent standpoint, but unless we execute the gameplan, which looks to me like, make them respect the run to the point that you can hit them for a bigplay deep in the passing game, their will be questionmarks.
I really like what this team has done, they have taken a ton of pressure off the WR's on the outside, with guys like Boldin/Kasper and Jones over the middle of the field Shipp/Anderson, down the seams Johnson/Gilmore/Foster single covered I see the potential for bigger plays then I ever saw when we had one playmaker in Boston.
It isn't one playmaker that scares DC's, thats easy to gameplan and slowdown, its balance, and a team that can beat you in a number of different ways that scare a DC.
Are we a team that can be balanced, we will see soon enough, but I think we have the makings of a team that is headed in the right direction from a talent standpoint, but unless we execute the gameplan, which looks to me like, make them respect the run to the point that you can hit them for a bigplay deep in the passing game, their will be questionmarks.
Just a couple of quick responses. RonF, had the best remark. He said I missed commenting on the chemistry and he couldn't be more correct. It is greatly improved and not making that comment was an oversight on my part.
I refuse to debate grammar.
As to the "lucky" comment about King, I am astonished any one would challenge it. Let's see, the Cards are desperate for defensive ends but cleverly wait until the 5th round to select one would could end up starting for them by the end of the season. If they had any idea he'd play this well, he would have been chosen earlier. They got lucky. Get serious.
Did Wilson learn from last year? Well did he play better in games 12-16 than he did in 1-5 last year? Did he play better in his second year than his first? Let's see what happens.
You met Jackson. I wouldn't try to retire based on the value of his autograph. He is a good physical specimen, who often got reckless in his play. Last year he showed improved discipline, but I am not sure he can sustain it. Prior to last year he did not play better than Lassiter.
Are the Cards worse than that whole list of teams? They are not particularly better. The Skins are a far better team, as are the Rams, who will contend and would not trade for the Cards' secondary.
Finally, what would make me happy? Winning during the season would make me happy. I have followed this team for 40 years and except for a few years in St. Louis and one or two in Arizona, I have listened every pre-season to how much they have improved. The proof is on the field. Put your predictions on the board, let Skrop record them and then let's post them at year's end. I wish we had done that last season. However, let me add a few things that would make me happy.
1. Spend the cap money. With tons of space under the cap, the Cards have said they will wait until after game one (a winnable game) to sign additional players, because it's cheaper. Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this? Who else is employing that strategy?
2. If you can't sign a top "need" free agent, then get a decent second-tier guy. No defensive end would play in AZ?
3. Stop drafting linebackers when you have more than you can play already. I yelled this at draft time and who was the first draft pick cut.
4. Go back to signing the top underdrafted free agents. Look what it got the Cards.
5. Sign some veteran backups.
6. Stop investing big money in constantly injured players. I mean the ones about whom they had advanced knowledge, like Clement.
That's enough for now. The list is longer.
Finally for Krang and the other who had vague responses about Graves preceded by a bunch of things I didn't say. I think the jury is out on Graves. If Pace continues his effective play into the season, it was a good draft. I know Boldin can play. Graves blew free agency in my estimation, though I like Blake and Hodgins. It's simply too early to call him a success or a failure. As to ownership, I simply refer you to the oratory of the late Phineas T. Barnum. I will also remind you what John Kennedy said, "Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it."
I glad I got you all going a little. Things were going too quietly for my taste.
I refuse to debate grammar.
As to the "lucky" comment about King, I am astonished any one would challenge it. Let's see, the Cards are desperate for defensive ends but cleverly wait until the 5th round to select one would could end up starting for them by the end of the season. If they had any idea he'd play this well, he would have been chosen earlier. They got lucky. Get serious.
Did Wilson learn from last year? Well did he play better in games 12-16 than he did in 1-5 last year? Did he play better in his second year than his first? Let's see what happens.
You met Jackson. I wouldn't try to retire based on the value of his autograph. He is a good physical specimen, who often got reckless in his play. Last year he showed improved discipline, but I am not sure he can sustain it. Prior to last year he did not play better than Lassiter.
Are the Cards worse than that whole list of teams? They are not particularly better. The Skins are a far better team, as are the Rams, who will contend and would not trade for the Cards' secondary.
Finally, what would make me happy? Winning during the season would make me happy. I have followed this team for 40 years and except for a few years in St. Louis and one or two in Arizona, I have listened every pre-season to how much they have improved. The proof is on the field. Put your predictions on the board, let Skrop record them and then let's post them at year's end. I wish we had done that last season. However, let me add a few things that would make me happy.
1. Spend the cap money. With tons of space under the cap, the Cards have said they will wait until after game one (a winnable game) to sign additional players, because it's cheaper. Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this? Who else is employing that strategy?
2. If you can't sign a top "need" free agent, then get a decent second-tier guy. No defensive end would play in AZ?
3. Stop drafting linebackers when you have more than you can play already. I yelled this at draft time and who was the first draft pick cut.
4. Go back to signing the top underdrafted free agents. Look what it got the Cards.
5. Sign some veteran backups.
6. Stop investing big money in constantly injured players. I mean the ones about whom they had advanced knowledge, like Clement.
That's enough for now. The list is longer.
Finally for Krang and the other who had vague responses about Graves preceded by a bunch of things I didn't say. I think the jury is out on Graves. If Pace continues his effective play into the season, it was a good draft. I know Boldin can play. Graves blew free agency in my estimation, though I like Blake and Hodgins. It's simply too early to call him a success or a failure. As to ownership, I simply refer you to the oratory of the late Phineas T. Barnum. I will also remind you what John Kennedy said, "Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it."
I glad I got you all going a little. Things were going too quietly for my taste.
Harry, thanks for the responses, debate is a good thing.
We did a little more than get his autograph, actually we didn't get his autograph. Jo interviewed him and I've been watching him in practices since the first mini camp and I have a few observations (even though I don't claim to have Ed B's eye for the game).
1) DJ works his butt off in every drill in every practice. His comment to Jo was that you every practice should have the same energy and focus as if you were playing in the SB. From what I've seen he backs his words up with actions. He practices like a demon even in 100+ degrees.
2) He insists that the guys around him practice and play the same way
3) He always seems to be around the ball and making a play.
From what you said it seems DJ is getting better each year, KL is getting slower.
I've heard the same comments about history but one must make a connection for it to be valid. eg What you have been doing for the last 5 years has no bearing on what I have been doing or will do because there is no connection. The point being that it is seems that the Cardinals are making changes in how they do business. They certainly have reworked the squad, given the changes in the players how does the performance of players who are no longer here affect the performance of the players who are here now ?
The prime example is Jake, I spent years being a Jake supporter. I saw him make mistakes in his first few years mixed with some pure genius. My reaction was that this was ok as he would learn and reduce the disaster. He didn't and is gone, if MNF is anything to go by he is still playing the same way. The point is why does Jake's performance over the last few years have any bearing on Blake's ? Or Pittman on Emmit or Mackavika on Hodgins or well you get the point.
Yes we may have got lucky in the draft but I find that the harder I work the luckier I get, maybe RG is improving our scouting process. I know he said that is a high priority for him when he took the job. Even BJ who we all expect to take a few games or even all year before he starts to produce showed some real good hands in the Minn game.
The Skins are not a better team, most Skins fans I met last weekend are on a suicide watch. They are expecting to be terrible this year.
The Rams 'could' be good but I think they could also implode if any of a number of things happen. The most likely is MF going down. He is having recurring knee problems. Their secondary is a mess. If the Rams do implode it will be ugly.
You are right we may not be particulay better but then again we might be. Nah, we are a lot better than Dallas and the Bears nobody lets us hit their starting QB that much.
As for signing players after game 1 being a problem, that depends on the player. If you have your eye on several for depth then I see little wrong in doing that. I suspect that the bulk of our $$ is aimed at resigning some key players to long term contracts (one of which I'm sure was KVB). This is good cap management and it's long over due here.
I think the point about this year is that we just don't know yet. We've seen signs that we might be reasonably good this year but many prefer not to get their hopes up only to have them dashed. I understand that but for now I'll go with what I've seen and that is a team that is far better than last year both in talent and attitude and with a little luck that may result in more wins and we will all be happy.
arthurracoon
The Cardinal Smiles
I agree
Thanks
Great post Harry. The article was very good as well.
No, you are not the only one.
It has been asked if the Cards are heading in the right direction. I personally feel that their direction can be judged by how much cap space they have left by the end of the season. Assuming there are no players that have been cut whom the Cards think can help this team, they should use their available cap dollars to extend some deals with their existing players during the season. To my knowledge, once the season is gone, the cap dollars are gone with it. To not use a significant portion of the cap dollars available to them, IMO would be an indication that the Cards are not willing to do what it takes to build a winner. Thus, if that becomes the case, they would not be heading in the right direction.
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