Harry Greene in frustration

[Skkorpion]

http://arizonasportsfans.com/storypage.php?Story_ID=658&Category=cardinals

 

[EndZone]

:

Harry is the ultimate darksider. Never a positive word in a single article I have seen him write. Are you really a fan?

Matt will sign, grow some balls and root for the team.

 

[ajcardfan]

We're all frustrated with Leinart not signing yet. But, none of us actually knows what has been offered or demanded up this point. All we'll really know is the deal Leinart winds up signing.

 

[Mike Olbinski]

:

Harry is the ultimate darksider. Never a positive word in a single article I have seen him write. Are you really a fan?

Matt will sign, grow some balls and root for the team.

Yeah, he never says anything positive...

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/storypage.php?Story_ID=655&Category=cardinals

I think that "balls" comment was completely beneath you End Zone and pretty lame.

If he didn't have "balls" he would write whatever you guys wanted to hear in the first place.

Geez.

Mike

 

[Shane]

Yeah, he never says anything positive...

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/storypage.php?Story_ID=655&Category=cardinals

I think that "balls" comment was completely beneath you End Zone and pretty lame.

If he didn't have "balls" he would write whatever you guys wanted to hear in the first place.

Geez.

Mike

 

[conraddobler]

IF the money is right now, I can't see it taking that much longer, not unless they are just picking nits over escalators.

I blame us for not having a viable number 3 to some extent but honestly if I compare us to say the Chiefs just for example, if we have Leinart eventually we are miles ahead of them if say Trent Green goes down that team is doomed.

Depth at QB isn't universal, a lot of teams have less than we will have when you get down to it, a lot do have more, I can see both sides of this.

 

[Renz]

Yawn. Did that "article" really rate a front page spread? If Harry has any proof that the Cardinals tried to low ball Leinart I'd love to see it. It's also amusing how he takes the Cards to task for praising Leinart after the draft. Do other organizations tell their fans that the players they just drafted were bad value and are going to suck? LOL!

Brees, Rivers and Culpepper all held out for at least two weeks before they signed.

Soon this will all be forgotten. Patience, Grasshopper.

 

[SeattleCard]

Easy folks - I think Harry is by far the best contributer this board has.

 

[Codeofhammurabi]

Easy folks - I think Harry is by far the best contributer this board has.

He is a great contributor, but this wasn't his best work.

 

[Duckjake]

The Cards have stunk it up on the field for almost every season over the last 30 years. All I have to do is look at who the initial inductees are in the ring of honor to know who is to blame.

It's a guy who thinks it's still 1946.

 

[Pariah]

:

Harry is the ultimate darksider. Never a positive word in a single article I have seen him write. Are you really a fan?

Matt will sign, grow some balls and root for the team.

Bush-league. Hatty speaks positively of the team a lot--probably too often. Just because someone is critical of the team doesn't mean they're not rooting for them.

What is it with posters on this board that seem to run off anyone with a professional take?

 

[ReddBird]

This was a negative piece but, clearly, the work of someone that loves his team. Usually, I love to read what Harry writes. He's done some knockout stuff on this board. This wasn't a true Harry article: This was more of a Harry rant.

 

[kerouac9]

Brees, Rivers and Culpepper all held out for at least two weeks before they signed.

Soon this will all be forgotten. Patience, Grasshopper.

It wasn't forgotten for those quarterbacks, Renz. Drew Brees played in 1 game his rookie season. Rivers and Culpepper didn't play in any.

In Drew Brees' second and third seasons, he struggled mightily, eventually getting benched for Doug Flutie. Phillip Rivers didnt play his first two seasons.

The Cards' don't have a legitimate quarterback backing up Warner right now, and while the Chiefs may have been able to get away with it, they also had one of the best offensive lines in NFL history.

Last season, Warner went down for a month three games into the season. If that happens this season and John Navarre (and his two career starts), whatever playoff hopes this team harbors (which I believe were slim to begin with) will evaporate, and while Edgerrin James is all fun and games, he's never lost 10 games in a season before, and there's no telling what would happen if he did.

 

[Pariah]

It wasn't forgotten for those quarterbacks, Renz. Drew Brees played in 1 game his rookie season. Rivers and Culpepper didn't play in any.

Their holdouts didn't have anything to do with them not playing. Rookie QBs usually don't play.

I can go down the list of a bunch of first round QBs that got to camp on time and didn't play a down, too. Off the top pf my head, McNair, Palmer and Pennington (I think).

 

[jmr667]

What is it with posters on this board that seem to run off anyone with a professional take?

Because a lot of posters are just as frustrated as Harry but show it in a different way. The thought of ANOTHER five or six win season makes us all sick. Some posters may rant, others may try to deny it's even a possibility. But either way no one wants to have to consider it.

 

[lobo]

you learned.....?

harry usually writes some good stuff...however in 25 words or less is there anything in these paragraphs that you found new, proufound, insghtfull, etc. it was an article written because an article had to be written...i think his point of view on what he saw on saturday may have been more interesting....

 

[kerouac9]

Their holdouts didn't have anything to do with them not playing. Rookie QBs usually don't play.

I can go down the list of a bunch of first round QBs that got to camp on time and didn't play a down, too. Off the top pf my head, McNair, Palmer and Pennington (I think).

Seriously? Do you want to do it like this? You know that those guys are the exception, rather than the rule.

2005 1 1 1 1 Alex D. Smith 49ers Utah
2 1 24 24 Aaron Rodgers Packers California
3 1 25 25 Jason Campbell Redskins Auburn
2004 1 1 1 1 Eli Manning Chargers Mississippi
2 1 4 4 Philip Rivers Giants North Carolina State
3 1 11 11 Ben Roethlisberger Steelers Miami (OH)
4 1 22 22 J.P. Losman Bills Tulane
2003 1 1 1 1 Carson Palmer Bengals USC
2 1 7 7 Byron Leftwich Jaguars Marshall
3 1 19 19 Kyle Boller Ravens California
4 1 22 22 Rex Grossman Bears Florida
2002 1 1 1 1 David Carr Texans Fresno State
2 1 3 3 Joey Harrington Lions Oregon
3 1 32 32 Patrick Ramsey Redskins Tulane
2001 1 1 1 1 Michael Vick Falcons Virginia Tech
2000 1 1 18 18 Chad Pennington Jets Marshall
1999 1 1 1 1 Tim Couch Browns Kentucky
2 1 2 2 Donovan McNabb Eagles Syracuse
3 1 3 3 Akili Smith Bengals Oregon
4 1 11 11 Daunte Culpepper Vikings Central Florida
5 1 12 12 Cade McNown Bears UCLA
1998 1 1 1 1 Peyton Manning Colts Tennessee
2 1 2 2 Ryan Leaf Chargers Washington State
1997 1 1 26 26 Jim Druckenmiller 49ers Virginia Tech

That's 10 years of first-round QBs. The vast majority (14 of 24) of them contributed as rookies, and I didn't count Grossman and Losman who were expected to but were inured, or Michael Vick who was actually on the field for a lot of downs his rookie year, but didn't start. Phillip Rivers was expected to win the starting job in camp but he didn't earn it because--wait for it--he was a contract holdout. Add those guys in and it's 18 of 24 or 75% of first-round QBs who contribute as rookies.

 

[Pariah]

That's 10 years of first-round QBs. The vast majority (13 of 24) of them contributed as rookies, and I didn't count Grossman and Losman who were expected to but were inured, or Michael Vick who was actually on the field for a lot of downs his rookie year, but didn't start.

Vast majority? 54%? Okay.

What you haven't done is linked a holdout to lack of PT for a rookie QB.

 

[kerouac9]

Vast majority? 54%? Okay.

What you haven't done is linked a holdout to lack of PT for a rookie QB.

What about Phillip Rivers? Perhaps because most first-round QBs don't have the holdout time that the Cards have allowed Leinart to hold out, it's not as much of a problem. What we have seen is that in the one case in the past 10 years that we have to view--Phillip Rivers--there was a direct correllation between PT and rookie holdout.

 

[Pariah]

What about Phillip Rivers?

What about him? Drew Brees developed into a pro bowl QB. If not for that he would have played.

 

[kerouac9]

What about him? Drew Brees developed into a pro bowl QB. If not for that he would have played.

No, he would have played if he'd made it to camp on time. He would have started Week 1, as was widely reported at the time. Don't go back and try and change history now.

 

[Pariah]

No, he would have played if he'd made it to camp on time. He would have started Week 1, as was widely reported at the time. Don't go back and try and change history now.

No, K9, it was reported that that was the case prior to TC. Then Brees made it impossible for him ot get on the field.

Also, even if it were the case (which it's not), how does this one situation prove your hypothesis?

 

[kerouac9]

No, K9, it was reported that that was the case prior to TC. Then Brees made it impossible for him ot get on the field.

Also, even if it were the case (which it's not), how does this one situation prove your hypothesis?

It's not my hypothesis. This is what you said:

Their holdouts didn't have anything to do with them not playing. Rookie QBs usually don't play.

I can go down the list of a bunch of first round QBs that got to camp on time and didn't play a down, too. Off the top pf my head, McNair, Palmer and Pennington (I think).

1) Rookie QBs usually do play. I showed you how that was the case. It gets even worse when you cut it down to Top 10 QBs, where 9 of the 13 top 10 picks started games--with Phillip Rivers holdout possibly making it 10 of 13.

2) You said that Rivers lost the starting job before camp opened. Please prove that. You've already tried revising history once by saying that it was Brees' development that got him the starting job.

Here's what I found:

Rivers gets $40.5 million deal -- plus $14.25M signing bonus

Aug. 23, 2004
SportsLine.com staff and wire reports

The San Diego Chargers have agreed to a six-year deal with quarterback Philip Rivers, their first-round pick this past April, ending a 23-day holdout.

The contract will pay Rivers $40.5 million, including a $14.25 million signing bonus. He can earn $10 million more in incentives.

Rivers will be at Chargers camp Tuesday to officially sign the deal, according to the team. He then will take part in his first NFL practice.

Rivers, the fourth player taken in the draft by the New York Giants, was traded to the Chargers in a draft-day trade for Eli Manning. San Diego also received a first-round pick next year from the Giants as part of the trade.

The Chargers were hoping to start Rivers as a rookie, but after missing three weeks of camp that is now highly unlikely. Plus, veteran Drew Brees has played well in his absence, leading the league in preseason passing yards..

At North Carolina State, Rivers threw for the second-most passing yards in NCAA history, but it was his work after the season, including at the Senior Bowl, that helped his stock soar.

Rivers is the last remaining first-round pick to agree to a deal, culminating what has been some acrimonious negotiations between the team and agent Jimmy Sexton. Rivers was seeking a deal similar the one signed by Manning with the Giants, but the Chargers balked.

The lone rookie without a contract is Indianapolis safety Bob Sanders, who is a second-round pick.

3) 100% of the sample shows that rookie holdouts = not playing as a rookie when it comes to quarterbacks. The sample size is small, but there's nothing we can do about that. Turns out that not a lot of rookie QBs endure long holdouts.

 

[Pariah]

How many of the QBs that didn't play also didn't hold out?

I guess my point is that your premise that holdout prevent rookie QBs from seeing the field is false logic. There's a lot that goes into a rookie QB not playing.

 

[Russ Smith]

What about Phillip Rivers? Perhaps because most first-round QBs don't have the holdout time that the Cards have allowed Leinart to hold out, it's not as much of a problem. What we have seen is that in the one case in the past 10 years that we have to view--Phillip Rivers--there was a direct correllation between PT and rookie holdout.

But you have to at least somewhat prove that Rivers holdout cost him the starting job. Rivers had the whole year to take the job from Brees and couldn't, and then couldn't again the next year.Only a serious injury to Brees got Rivers the job, there's no evidence that if Brees hadn't gotten hurt, RIvers wouldn't still be complaining about not playing and demanding a trade.

Not saying QB's missing time is a good thing, but in that case I don't think it cost Rivers the job, I think Brees was simply a better player.