Heres my question

[dinesh15]

Ok, didnt Kurt Warner play at No 1 QB or No2 QB level this year(2008)?? I suppose everyone will agree that he played at that level. Infact he even played at a Top 5 QB level in 2007... But he was paid only about 5 million this year and last..

so considering that, whats wrong in paying him about 26 million the next two years and the cards can assume that we are paying him for 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010? Come on, he took Cards to the super bowl that no one else can ever do in over a 100 years..I agree he is not the only reason we went to the SB, but he is ONE of the main reasons...

I think its fair as to what Kurt expects... especially after the Bidwills were so stingy in paying his 500K bonus in 07.. comeon, pay the man...little bit of thanks for what he has done and what he means to cards and how he represents himself....Lets not lose him to the niners and go back 3 steps!!!

 

[joeshmo]

Why go back and pay a player for past deals that the Player and Agent themselves negotiated. The player and agent themselves signed on the dotted line without a gun to their head.

Past contracts have absolutely no room whatsoever in current negotiations, becuase its the player that made the mistake in the last contract not the team. Why should the team pay for a player mistake(their the ones that signed the deal).

Also he got paid 8 mill each season becuase of incentives.

The 500k bonus was not allowed to be paid according to NFLPA guidelines. You cant just start paying a player money if it isnt in their contract, it is against the rules and the NFLPA told the Cards they couldnt do it. It was not a CArds being cheap issue at all it was a league issue.

 

[TigToad]

In pro sports, you sign a contract and play well hoping the next contract will be better. Kurt did that. He played great.

I'm not really sure more of these threads need to be created, but here are my arguments to your points...

He did great in 07 and 08. He didn't look that great though when he got here. I remember the calls for his benching because of the chronic fumbling and he's one hit on the hand away from that problem returning. His age isn't a factor yet, but its only a matter of time. He might have 2 more great years left, or he might be done. Its impossible to know with most QBs... and Kurt, with his injury history, is a bigger question mark.

You cannot pay a guy backwards. You pay him for what he will do for you in the future. Examples are everywhere, but no better example is out there than Dawkins. Who thought he'd leave the Eagles?

Not paying the 500k bonus is not stingy. He didn't earn that bonus. Its a hard precident to set giving money up to guys who are close... you do that once, and everyone, every time is screaming that they were close. Besides, it is only in the world of sports that _fans_ can look at half a million dollars and call someone not wiling to part with it, stingy.

And I guess, in the final analysis ... I have some faith in Leinart.

 

[zuchini]

You pay a guy for what you expect (hope) he will do for you in the future...

BASED on what he did in the past. Isn't that how FA base their contract requests? What they did in the past?

The argument with Warner really does boil down to his age, I think.

38 is old for most NFL qbs. But...

Warner has more tread on his tires than most 38 year old qbs. As you all know, he hasn't been taking nfl hits since he was 22, but rather, since he was about 28. And he's never been one to be out all hours of the morning boozing it up. Well not with the boys anyway. Maybe at home with Brenda. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors, huh?

If the Cards are now offering 12.5 guaranteed, his agent needs to come back and say he'll take 13 million guaranteed and it's a done deal.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

In pro sports, you sign a contract and play well hoping the next contract will be better. Kurt did that. He played great.

I'm not really sure more of these threads need to be created, but here are my arguments to your points...

He did great in 07 and 08. He didn't look that great though when he got here. I remember the calls for his benching because of the chronic fumbling and he's one hit on the hand away from that problem returning. His age isn't a factor yet, but its only a matter of time. He might have 2 more great years left, or he might be done. Its impossible to know with most QBs... and Kurt, with his injury history, is a bigger question mark.

You cannot pay a guy backwards. You pay him for what he will do for you in the future. Examples are everywhere, but no better example is out there than Dawkins. Who thought he'd leave the Eagles?

Not paying the 500k bonus is not stingy. He didn't earn that bonus. Its a hard precident to set giving money up to guys who are close... you do that once, and everyone, every time is screaming that they were close. Besides, it is only in the world of sports that _fans_ can look at half a million dollars and call someone not wiling to part with it, stingy.

And I guess, in the final analysis ... I have some faith in Leinart.

Agreed. These are going to start to be condensed into other threads very soon.

 

[CardLogic]

If the Cards are now offering 12.5 guaranteed, his agent needs to come back and say he'll take 13 million guaranteed and it's a done deal.

If the Cards are now offering 12.5 guaranteed, his agent needs to tell Warner to get his butt in there and sign it!

 

[dreamcastrocks]

We should start charging players that don't live up to their contracts.

 

[abomb]

We should start charging players that don't live up to their contracts.

Excel cant hold them all.

Back to the OP, you dont pay for "make up pay" in NFL contracts. You just dont.

 

[JeffGollin]

Another Weasel Idea...

If a sticking point in the negotiations is that the Cards don't want to take the cap hit caused by an increase in guaranteed compensation, what's to prevent the Bidwills from donating a few million dollars to a charity of Warner's choosing.

After all, Kurt says he's all about helping the community and - at both past and current levels of compensation - doesn't figure to miss many meals (and would probably donate the money anyway).

Bottom Line - The money gets donated. It doesn't count against the cap. It's for a good cause.

The only tricky thing to avoid would involve the contribution's eligiblity for a tax write-off (of the kind that right now is disrupting the confirmation of the former Dallas Mayor to a federal post).

 

[D-Dogg]

Here's my question.

How can someone wade through all the posts on this idiotic topic and a) not catch that the NFL didn't allow us to pay Warner the $500K bonus even though we wanted to and b) somehow think that we needed ANOTHER thread on this?

If we want to play the "make up" game...Kurt sucked out loud his first couple of seasons, so he stole money back then. We can call it all a wash.

 

[D-Dogg]

If a sticking point in the negotiations is that the Cards don't want to take the cap hit caused by an increase in guaranteed compensation, what's to prevent the Bidwills from donating a few million dollars to a charity of Warner's choosing.

The NFL rules.

 

[ajcardfan]

We should start charging players that don't live up to their contracts.

We do. We cut players, or force them to take pay cuts, regularly. We do that based on what they did in the past and expect them to do in the future. This isn't like MLB or NBA where once a deal is signed it's all guaranteed. NFL teams have the advantage in contract situations.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

We do. We cut players, or force them to take pay cuts, regularly. We do that based on what they did in the past and expect them to do in the future. This isn't like MLB or NBA where once a deal is signed it's all guaranteed. NFL teams have the advantage in contract situations.

BUT, we don't ask them to give back money. Warner wants us to pay him extra money because he played better than his contract last year. They can't take money from players that perform poorly, so why would we pay them extra?

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

I am not always happy with the way the Bidwills do business but I am really tired of the MISINFORMED continuing to perpetuate the myth that the Cards were stingy with Warner's 500k bonus as an excuse to justify bashing them (There is plenty other fodder for that).

Do we need to sticky a thread titled: "THE NFL DOES NOT ALLOW UNMET INCENTIVES TO BE PAID BECAUSE THE PLAYER WAS CLOSE TO MEETING IT!!!!"

 

[D-Dogg]

Come on, Kurt Warner has no respect for the one team in the league who took a chance on him and gave him a nice salary to be a backup after his days in NY were cut short, benched for a rookie and fumbling all over the place. A team that stuck with him as he still fumbled and picked his way to terrible games...and then gave him the chance to still compete for a starting spot.

A team that backed him, when nobody else believed in him. And now he wants MORE money from them? Hell of a way to repay the team that gave you a shot and allowed you to show that you still had it. But if you are about the money, then diss this team and go to SF where it is a terrible fit, and they don't even have a roof to close. Thanks for the loyalty.



See, you can take either side on this stupid argument.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Do we need to sticky a thread titled: "THE NFL DOES NOT ALLOW UNMET INCENTIVES TO BE PAID BECAUSE THE PLAYER WAS CLOSE TO MEETING IT!!!!"

I hope not.

 

[Cards232]

Here's my question.

How can someone wade through all the posts on this idiotic topic and a) not catch that the NFL didn't allow us to pay Warner the $500K bonus even though we wanted to and b) somehow think that we needed ANOTHER thread on this?

If we want to play the "make up" game...Kurt sucked out loud his first couple of seasons, so he stole money back then. We can call it all a wash.

The Card's as a whole "sucked out loud" his first couple of seasons. Is there a correlation? Can you name me any HOF qb's that played at HOF levels on "sucked out loud" teams? Go back & read the articles where Fitz talks about the importance of Warner's tutoring in his development. There's a lot more to Warner's worth than the numbers, especially the first couple of years.

 

[40yearfan]

I am not always happy with the way the Bidwills do business but I am really tired of the MISINFORMED continuing to perpetuate the myth that the Cards were stingy with Warner's 500k bonus as an excuse to justify bashing them (There is plenty other fodder for that).

Do we need to sticky a thread titled: "THE NFL DOES NOT ALLOW UNMET INCENTIVES TO BE PAID BECAUSE THE PLAYER WAS CLOSE TO MEETING IT!!!!"

The problem is that people won't take the time to read all the posts. They only read the ones that agree with their views. That's why there's so much mis-information that just keeps getting bandied about.

 

[Mainstreet]

But if you are about the money, then diss this team and go to SF where it is a terrible fit, and they don't even have a roof to close. Thanks for the loyalty.

See, you can take either side on this stupid argument.

You win in this version. The part... "they don't even have a roof to close" sold me.

 

[D-Dogg]

The Card's as a whole "sucked out loud" his first couple of seasons. Is there a correlation? Can you name me any HOF qb's that played at HOF levels on "sucked out loud" teams? Go back & read the articles where Fitz talks about the importance of Warner's tutoring in his development. There's a lot more to Warner's worth than the numbers, especially the first couple of years.

Dude, if Kurt kept playing like he did back then, he never would have played again. Don't act like he didn't fix SEVERAL major issues in his game, most notably the fumbling.

The Gloved Wonder and the Fumbling Doofball played under the same contract. You don't pay the former some make up cash and ignore the latter fumbled away games against the Rams. At least back then when Matt lost, it was at the foot of Rackers (Bears, Chiefs) and not because he wasn't able to come out from center holding the ball.

Pay Kurt on what you expect him to do for you NEXT year, and the following. Not on what he did, or didn't do, in years prior. And $10 mill is more than enough.

 

[Cards232]

Dude, if Kurt kept playing like he did back then, he never would have played again. Don't act like he didn't fix SEVERAL major issues in his game, most notably the fumbling.

The Gloved Wonder and the Fumbling Doofball played under the same contract. You don't pay the former some make up cash and ignore the latter fumbled away games against the Rams. At least back then when Matt lost, it was at the foot of Rackers (Bears, Chiefs) and not because he wasn't able to come out from center holding the ball.

Pay Kurt on what you expect him to do for you NEXT year, and the following. Not on what he did, or didn't do, in years prior. And $10 mill is more than enough.

I guess in your world protection has nothing to do w/ the fumbling problem. Has Warner had FAR better protection the last couple of years? When Warner fumbles, it's usually b/c he's waiting for the last second for the receiver to break into the clear, & then he gets creamed before he can get the ball off. The difference? The last 2 years he's had that split second more to launch. He still fumbled this year when that wasn't the case. So did Big Ben & many other qb's this year.

I am a coach & a student of the game. I have studied Warner for years now so that I can teach others about balance, leadership, etc. I can tell you, very little has changed in his form, not even holding on to the ball better for the better part. If the gloves were the cure-all, why does he still fumble? Perhaps it's b/c it's part of the game, & a bigger part of Warner's game b/c he waits until the last second more than any other qb in the league. It's a high risk, high reward type of qbing. As this year proves, when given that split second more, the reward far outweighs the risk.

Your lack of respect for the only qb to ever take the Card's to the SB is duly noted. He hung in there during some very trying times while getting plastered by opposing lines. Your appreciation for all that? Petty name calling & disdain. Nice!

 

[D-Dogg]

Sorry Coach...didn't mean to bust on your boy there, with the lack of respect and all.

 

[Cards232]

Sorry Coach...didn't mean to bust on your boy there, with the lack of respect and all.

He was a Cards qb. He should be your boy as a Card's fan. The attitude doesn't garner you much respect my friend. One can have disagreements w/o throwing the players under the bus for no reason. A shame.

 

[D-Dogg]

Nobody threw anyone under the bus, Coach. You are the only person (including his coaches) who is trying to claim that Warner is playing the same as he did a few years ago. The rest, including his coaches, credit his hard work, decision to go with the gloves, and focus on holding onto the ball when hit and making faster decisions as why he's excelling at this stage of his career.

I'm all for bringing Kurt back for next year. I'm not all for paying him more than he's worth. Like I said, pay him for what you expect from him NEXT YEAR, not on what he feels he might be owed for last season. He signed that contract back then...he doesn't get a do-over.

I root for the players on the team, regardless of them being my favorite or not. I'll root for Kurt the player if/when he pulls his head out and takes the nice offer we have for him. I'll root for Leinart if not. Boldin's my boy, but if it makes us a better team then trade him. If Warner wants to go to SF over a couple million dollars, then fine...saves us 10 or 12 million to use on FA, tie our guys up longer and it's not like we don't have another QB on the roster.

The team isn't about one guy. Never has been; never will be.

 

[zuchini]

I guess in your world protection has nothing to do w/ the fumbling problem. Has Warner had FAR better protection the last couple of years? When Warner fumbles, it's usually b/c he's waiting for the last second for the receiver to break into the clear, & then he gets creamed before he can get the ball off. The difference? The last 2 years he's had that split second more to launch. He still fumbled this year when that wasn't the case. So did Big Ben & many other qb's this year.

I am a coach & a student of the game. I have studied Warner for years now so that I can teach others about balance, leadership, etc. I can tell you, very little has changed in his form, not even holding on to the ball better for the better part. If the gloves were the cure-all, why does he still fumble? Perhaps it's b/c it's part of the game, & a bigger part of Warner's game b/c he waits until the last second more than any other qb in the league. It's a high risk, high reward type of qbing. As this year proves, when given that split second more, the reward far outweighs the risk.

Your lack of respect for the only qb to ever take the Card's to the SB is duly noted. He hung in there during some very trying times while getting plastered by opposing lines. Your appreciation for all that? Petty name calling & disdain. Nice!

Good post.