Heroes and Goats: JAC@ARI

[kerouac9]

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A few weeks ago, I dismissed despair and draft-positioning among the fan base by saying that the 2017 Arizona Cardinals are a 7-9 team that will play some entertaining, high-variance games at home. Today, that’s exactly where we are. This does not take anything away from the 7-3 Jaguars, who are absolutely killing opponents. The Cards are 4-2 in games decided by 7 points or less. That’s bad.

What’s worse is I don’t trust the coaching staff and front office to take the right lessons from this season. In a year when we’re probably a bad team who lucked into a mediocre record (we’re outperforming our Estimated Wins* by 1.2 games), I think that BASK think that we’re a good team held back by key injuries.

It’s not even December yet! Too early to worry about it! Let’s enjoy the win.

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Phil Dawson - Clutch performance at home by the old man. Doesn’t really change anything in the long term, but give credit where it’s due

Jared Veldheer - People are going to give too much credit to Gabbert’s mobility. Veldheer has been his usual steady self on the left side — which is why people should be questioning the decision to move him in favor of unreliable D.J. Humphries.

Josh Bynes - Stepped in for Deone Bucannon and played well enough that I’m not wondering if we should move Hasson Reddick back to the middle.

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Karlos Dansby - It was painful watching T.J. Yeldon run away from Dansby. Hard to fault Bettcher for designing the defense to make the 2nd string RB beat you, but it wasn’t easy to watch.

Deone Bucannon - Played 5 snaps before being injured. Was not missed (see above).

Robert Nkemdiche - Failed to record a tackle in 16 snaps. For comparison’s sake, Darnell Dockett had 3.5 sacks his first season.

BONUS HOT TAKE: I'm a Gabbert Truther for the time being. Bring me your "Gabbert is the REAL DEAL" takes, and I will happily explain to you the melting point of steel. A good analysis of why it's not time to turn the key to the franchise over quite yet can be found here.

* Estimated Wins uses a statistic known as "Forest Index" that emphasizes consistency as well as DVOA in the most important specific situations: red zone defense, first quarter offense, and performance in the second half when the score is close. It then projects a number of wins adjusted to a league-average schedule and a league-average rate of recovering fumbles. Teams that have had their bye week are projected as if they had played one game per week.

 

[oaken1]

I questioned and complained about the Veldheer move when it happened,.. but was mostly the only one. at the end of last season our line tried to solidify and moving any pieces was a mistake... Jared should stay on the left as long as he wears cardinal red...plenty of time to move the young guy later.
.
Like you...I recognize this staffs innate ability to fall into excuses..."we were hampered by injuries" is one they have used before and its terrifying to think they will use it again.

I think the worst injury we have is the oline coaches dementia. CTE??? I dunno... but somehow he manages to take talented guys and make them worse..... to his credit, the line shows a tendency towards gelling around week 12 each season and look good to end out the year.

Gabbert is just real deal enough that I dont think we should re sign Stanton this off season..

sad note...dont re sign KD either...he needs to retire now.

 

[unseenaz]

It’s interestkng to consider that gabbert could play adequately enough to be the starter next season if Palmer doesn’t come back. We have too many holes to fill to trade up in the first for a QB.. gonna be interesting to see how they bandaid the position next season

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

You said Gabbert was not an NFL caliber QB...that was incorrect. He's much better than Stanton and is all wwe need from a backup.

 

[pmacLean]

Pretty freaking hilarious that Gabbert isn't a 'hero'. And of course, yet another reference to "DVOA". Sure you are not a Seattle fan ? Where DVOA is GOD "? Where even if they loose the season, as long as they are on top in the DVOA they claim victory ?

Watch his pass to Brown for the TD. No other Cardinal QB could have done that.
Watch him bring the team downfield in under 1 1/2 minutes and get an FG to win the game.
Watch the drive that got to the Brown TD where he gets 2 first downs in a row because he can actually escape and run. No other Cardinal QB could have done that.

But hey
Your heroes

Phil Dawson... yes, he was dialed in, no argument, but isn't this the FIRST game this year that he has been dialed in (where is the wait and see more, which you insist on draping Gabbert with ?)
I say. let's see him do it again, before anointing the man (you know, like Gabbert has to).

Jared Valdheer ... sucked all year, first game he looked good, what a hero, let's ignore the fact that any Cardinal QB not named Gabbert would have been sacked over and over ... yup, 1 game, 1 big hero.
I say. let's see him do it again, before anointing the man (you know, like Gabbert has to).

Josh Bynes... here, even though it is only one game, he gets the call with " played well enough".
He played lights out, but.
I say. let's see him do it again, before anointing the man (you know, like Gabbert has to).

Real Heroes

Gabbert
Seals-jones
Badger (unbelievably enough)

And how the EFF you can be a goat "Deone Bucannon - Played 5 snaps before being injured. Was not missed (see above)" after getting INJURED, 5 plays in is beyond me.

Your abysmal attempt at rating who was good and who was bad, is at least, highly entertaining.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Well, the Cardinals are a good team that's been held back by injuries. I'm not saying they're a Super Bowl team but they were a good team. In fact, I was listening to a radio show the other day and they were amazed the Cardinals were still being listed in the playoff talk(I know they're not making it) with all the injuries to key players at key positions. QB1, QB2, LT, LG, top 3 RB in the NFL, leading pass rusher are all pretty significant losses that have been missed with Johnson, Hump, Golden, and Iupati pretty much the entire year.

 

[WisconsinCard]

Pretty freaking hilarious that Gabbert isn't a 'hero'. And of course, yet another reference to "DVOA". Sure you are not a Seattle fan ? Where DVOA is GOD "? Where even if they loose the season, as long as they are on top in the DVOA they claim victory ?

Watch his pass to Brown for the TD. No other Cardinal QB could have done that.
Watch him bring the team downfield in under 1 1/2 minutes and get an FG to win the game.
Watch the drive that got to the Brown TD where he gets 2 first downs in a row because he can actually escape and run. No other Cardinal QB could have done that.

But hey
Your heroes

Phil Dawson... yes, he was dialed in, no argument, but isn't this the FIRST game this year that he has been dialed in (where is the wait and see more, which you insist on draping Gabbert with ?)
I say. let's see him do it again, before anointing the man (you know, like Gabbert has to).

Jared Valdheer ... sucked all year, first game he looked good, what a hero, let's ignore the fact that any Cardinal QB not named Gabbert would have been sacked over and over ... yup, 1 game, 1 big hero.
I say. let's see him do it again, before anointing the man (you know, like Gabbert has to).

Josh Bynes... here, even though it is only one game, he gets the call with " played well enough".
He played lights out, but.
I say. let's see him do it again, before anointing the man (you know, like Gabbert has to).

Real Heroes

Gabbert
Seals-jones
Badger (unbelievably enough)

And how the EFF you can be a goat "Deone Bucannon - Played 5 snaps before being injured. Was not missed (see above)" after getting INJURED, 5 plays in is beyond me.

Your abysmal attempt at rating who was good and who was bad, is at least, highly entertaining.

Dude to quote Cheese "you need to switch to Sanka". It's just one mans opinion, why get so worked up? If you don't like his thread, either A.don't read it or B. start you own hero's and zeros thread.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

What’s worse is I don’t trust the coaching staff and front office to take the right lessons from this season. In a year when we’re probably a bad team who lucked into a mediocre record (we’re outperforming our Estimated Wins* by 1.2 games), I think that BASK think that we’re a good team held back by key injuries.

I think the way the roster is setup, the Cardinals will have no choice but to overturn the current roster, IMO. I will keep pointing to 2019, where there is no team to be talked about.

QB, WR, OL, TE, DL, ILB, CB, S

All going to look much different in about 2 years.

The current core is shaping up to be:

Patrick Peterson
Chandler Jones
David Johnson

This organization will build off of that, which I think is a good thing.


Now if we could just start drafting players from the top of the talent pool and stop trying to convince people a Subaru Outback can beat Mustang in a race this organization can really start to build a NFL caliber team. (i.e. please stop drafting the John Brown's and Brandon Williams's of the world)

 

[schutd]

Dude to quote Cheese "you need to switch to Sanka". It's just one mans opinion, why get so worked up? If you don't like his thread, either A.don't read it or B. start you own hero's and zeros thread.

Sorry, Love reading K9's stuff, but he's a bit incendiary as well. To have other posters take it to task hard is exactly why he opines the way he does. As much as maclean tends to go off, I didnt find anything offensive in his post or tone.

 

[Dback Jon]

Sorry, Love reading K9's stuff, but he's a bit incendiary as well. To have other posters take it to task hard is exactly why he opines the way he does. As much as maclean tends to go off, I didnt find anything offensive in his post or tone.

+1000

K9 has said at times he picks choices to generate feedback and stir the pot

 

[Harry]

We’ll see how Veldheer does going forward. He did have a good game, but last year he often struggled against speed rushers. I think a Humphries is the LT next season. He looked good to me especially against the run. Veldheer has never been a big second level blocker.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Sorry, Love reading K9's stuff, but he's a bit incendiary as well.

I guess that is relative to the reader. I find K9 to be pretty tame in comparison to many other posters on this board.

At least he stands by his words, and is willing to debate.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

We’ll see how Veldheer does going forward. He did have a good game, but last year he often struggled against speed rushers. I think a Humphries is the LT next season. He looked good to me especially against the run. Veldheer has never been a big second level blocker.

I think by unreliable he meant "oft-injured"........at least that is how I took it. He may be saying Humphries play is unreliabe, but who knows.

I for one am a fan of Humphries, and while he is injury prone, when out there he has looked pretty good. Furthermore, I think he will get even better, IF his health holds up.

 

[kerouac9]

Pretty freaking hilarious that Gabbert isn't a 'hero'. And of course, yet another reference to "DVOA". Sure you are not a Seattle fan ? Where DVOA is GOD "? Where even if they loose the season, as long as they are on top in the DVOA they claim victory ?

Watch his pass to Brown for the TD. No other Cardinal QB could have done that.
Watch him bring the team downfield in under 1 1/2 minutes and get an FG to win the game.
Watch the drive that got to the Brown TD where he gets 2 first downs in a row because he can actually escape and run. No other Cardinal QB could have done that.

But hey
Your heroes

Phil Dawson... yes, he was dialed in, no argument, but isn't this the FIRST game this year that he has been dialed in (where is the wait and see more, which you insist on draping Gabbert with ?)
I say. let's see him do it again, before anointing the man (you know, like Gabbert has to).

Jared Valdheer ... sucked all year, first game he looked good, what a hero, let's ignore the fact that any Cardinal QB not named Gabbert would have been sacked over and over ... yup, 1 game, 1 big hero.
I say. let's see him do it again, before anointing the man (you know, like Gabbert has to).

Josh Bynes... here, even though it is only one game, he gets the call with " played well enough".
He played lights out, but.
I say. let's see him do it again, before anointing the man (you know, like Gabbert has to).

Real Heroes

Gabbert
Seals-jones
Badger (unbelievably enough)

And how the EFF you can be a goat "Deone Bucannon - Played 5 snaps before being injured. Was not missed (see above)" after getting INJURED, 5 plays in is beyond me.

Your abysmal attempt at rating who was good and who was bad, is at least, highly entertaining.

You don't get to be a hero when you throw a pick and fumble twice. Follow the link in the OP, check out how easy Gabbert's job was made by Arians and company, even as the offense went 7-17 on third downs.

Veldheer had a rough start to the season, for sure. But he'd even settled down quite a bit on the right side. He was exceptional last week.

Well, the Cardinals are a good team that's been held back by injuries. I'm not saying they're a Super Bowl team but they were a good team. In fact, I was listening to a radio show the other day and they were amazed the Cardinals were still being listed in the playoff talk(I know they're not making it) with all the injuries to key players at key positions. QB1, QB2, LT, LG, top 3 RB in the NFL, leading pass rusher are all pretty significant losses that have been missed with Johnson, Hump, Golden, and Iupati pretty much the entire year.

We had those guys last year and went 7-8-1. Not sure how you can depend on Humphries ever again. Oft-injured college player becomes oft-injured professional player. IMO, we have a Top 25 quarterback in Palmer (but probably not Top 10 anymore—i.e., not someone who can get you to the playoffs without tons of help) and two Top 50 backups in Gabbert and Stanton (which is better than many-to-most teams have).

With pretty much everyone but David Johnson, we were a .500-ish team. The ceiling on this roster is probably 9 wins. It depends on what your definition of "good" is.

I think the way the roster is setup, the Cardinals will have no choice but to overturn the current roster, IMO. I will keep pointing to 2019, where there is no team to be talked about.

QB, WR, OL, TE, DL, ILB, CB, S

All going to look much different in about 2 years.

The current core is shaping up to be:

Patrick Peterson
Chandler Jones
David Johnson

This organization will build off of that, which I think is a good thing.


Now if we could just start drafting players from the top of the talent pool and stop trying to convince people a Subaru Outback can beat Mustang in a race this organization can really start to build a NFL caliber team. (i.e. please stop drafting the John Brown's and Brandon Williams's of the world)

Look at some other rosters on SporTrac or OverTheCap. I don't think many teams have more than a couple dozen contracts two years out. Next year, we'll have another 5-8 players under contract following the draft, plus a handful of free agents on 2-3 year deals. I think that Budda Baker is likely in the core, and Hassan Reddick can be just as good as Kevin Minter or Deone Bucannon. That's a good start.

We’ll see how Veldheer does going forward. He did have a good game, but last year he often struggled against speed rushers. I think a Humphries is the LT next season. He looked good to me especially against the run. Veldheer has never been a big second level blocker.

I agree with this. Humphries was getting a lot of help that I don't see Veldheer getting. I have little doubt that Keim is gonna plug Humphries back in, but that doesn't mean it's the right decision.

 

[Krangodnzr]

We’ll see how Veldheer does going forward. He did have a good game, but last year he often struggled against speed rushers. I think a Humphries is the LT next season. He looked good to me especially against the run. Veldheer has never been a big second level blocker.

Kerouac hate DJ Humphries.

 

[kerouac9]

Kerouac hate DJ Humphries.

D.J. Humphries has averaged 6 games per season as a professional.

Discounting his rookie year, when he was never active, he's averaged 9 starts per season.

He may be Steve Keim's most successful first-round pick.

 

[WisconsinCard]

Sorry, Love reading K9's stuff, but he's a bit incendiary as well. To have other posters take it to task hard is exactly why he opines the way he does. As much as maclean tends to go off, I didnt find anything offensive in his post or tone.

Not my point, my point is if someone gives you their opinion on a message board that you don't like, then ignore it or deal with it. If there was no sarcasm in that post then I miss read it for sure. He didn't like it because his boy was left off the list. So I merely mentioned if you don't like someone's list make your own.

 

[NJCardFan]

D.J. Humphries has averaged 6 games per season as a professional.

Discounting his rookie year, when he was never active, he's averaged 9 starts per season.

He may be Steve Keim's most successful first-round pick.

So you're implying that Humphries has been more successful than Bucannon? A guy who has been playing out of position his entire career but manages to play adequately and sometimes pretty well?

 

[kerouac9]

So you're implying that Humphries has been more successful than Bucannon? A guy who has been playing out of position his entire career but manages to play adequately and sometimes pretty well?

Also hurt. Also very mediocre.

I have seen little evidence that Bucannon could have more impact if he were playing further from the line of scrimmage.

 

[TJ]

Pretty freaking hilarious that Gabbert isn't a 'hero'. And of course, yet another reference to "DVOA". Sure you are not a Seattle fan ? Where DVOA is GOD "? Where even if they loose the season, as long as they are on top in the DVOA they claim victory ?

Watch his pass to Brown for the TD. No other Cardinal QB could have done that.
Watch him bring the team downfield in under 1 1/2 minutes and get an FG to win the game.
Watch the drive that got to the Brown TD where he gets 2 first downs in a row because he can actually escape and run. No other Cardinal QB could have done that.

Are you related to Gabbert? You seem to get very emotional when someone points out his flaws.

Here's the deal: Fans should be wanting to find THE guy as opposed to A guy at quarterback. So far, I've seen little, if anything, that indicates that Blaine is more than a backup option in this league. He's had spurts of good plays, but he lost the game against Houston with very costly, ill-timed turnovers, and almost did the same thing against Jacksonville. Also, his numbers seem to dip when blitzed, which is a sign that he still needs help in making decisions faster and avoiding pressure more consistently.

 

[Chopper0080]

Again, the Cardinals third down conversion rate and the turnovers really make me question the future for Gabbert. I have no problem with him not on the heroes list. That he threw a game winning bomb doesn't cover up the fact that he was the result of the defensive TD giving up the lead. Gabbert in game awareness is also pretty scary. It is like he doesn't know what the goal is in the moment and what game he needs to play.

How Patrick Peterson is not on the Hero list is beyond me. Dude shut down the one legit WR threat the Jags had and made Bortles very uncomfortable in doing so. I don't know if there is a better CB in the NFL right now.

RE: Humphries...inconsistency is the worst thing you can have from an offensive linemen, especially from a LT. I agree that Humphries will be at LT in 2018, but I don't believe the result will be an different.

Honestly, I don't hate our roster long term. I believe Chandler Jones, Patrick Peterson, Budda Baker, Tyrann Mathieu, Haason Reddick, and Olson Pierre can be a decent foundation. I don't believe in Bettcher which will ultimately hold the unit back however. ON offense, things are worse. I can stomach Gresham and his contract. RSJ gives a big, vertical mismatch which is nice. I don't count any of our offensive linemen as anything to build off of. Fitz is great. David Johnson is a RB which has a shelf life. We will see with Chad Williams. Other than that...meh.

The big questions are ...
1-Can we develop any offensive linemen?
2-Can we hit on an impact 1st round pick.
3-Can we succeed despite Amos Jones and James Bettcher?

My answers to these questions are no...which is why I don't believe we have a chance to take the West back from the Rams. Of course, if we make changes, we can eliminate some of those questions.

 

[kerouac9]

Patrick Peterson is always a hero. You don’t give Superman the keys to the city for reducing a cat, tho.

 

[pmacLean]

Dude to quote Cheese "you need to switch to Sanka". It's just one mans opinion, why get so worked up? If you don't like his thread, either A.don't read it or B. start you own hero's and zeros thread.

God forbid we should disagree. Is this a Scientology Church or a Cardinals fan message board ?

Why not get worked up, isn't that half the fun ?

 

[NJCardFan]

God forbid we should disagree. Is this a Scientology Church or a Cardinals fan message board ?

Why not get worked up, isn't that half the fun ?

You have to remember that the person telling you to switch to Sanka has me on ignore because I dare to be critical of this team.

 

[Krangodnzr]

D.J. Humphries has averaged 6 games per season as a professional.

Discounting his rookie year, when he was never active, he's averaged 9 starts per season.

He may be Steve Keim's most successful first-round pick.

Sad but true. I think he was good when healthy but he hasn't been healthy.