hoops.ws scoring system

[elindholm]

I know we have a different forum for fantasy sports, but many people don't look there. So, feel free to ignore this thread if it doesn't interest you.

The scoring system for the hoops.ws league is unusual and complicated. If you haven't played before, you'll definitely want to look this over. Even if you have, it might be worth some review.

Have fun!

PART I

The scoring in this league is counted up by minutes, not players. You get 48 center minutes, 96 forward minutes, and 96 guard minutes. There is no distinction between power forwards and small forwards, or between point guards and shooting guards.

You use your lineup to determine which players will give you those minutes. The scoring system (I’ll just say “the site” from now on) starts at the top of your lineup, and sees which minutes your first player will fill. Then it goes to the second player and sees which minutes he will fill, and so on. Once all of your minutes are filled up for the game, the rest of your players don’t matter – they “didn’t play” that game.

For example, let’s take this lineup (which I made up). After each player, the first number in parentheses is the number of minutes he played in his actual NBA game, and the second number is how many minutes count for the fantasy game.

G Marbury (38, 38)
F Martin (40, 40)
G Francis (36, 36)
C Divac (30, 30)
F Abdur-Rahim (35, 35)
F Garrity (35, 21)
C Mutombo (0, 0)
G Lenard (30, 22)
F Weatherspoon (20, 0)
G Fisher (20, 0)
C Tsakalidis (8, 8)
C Borchardt (24, 10)

So look at Garrity, sixth on the list. By the time “the site” gets to him, it has already counted 40 minutes from Martin at Forward and 35 minutes from Abdur-Rahim. That’s 75 minutes, so only 21 are left to reach the total of 96. Garrity gets to count 21 of his 35 NBA minutes, and the rest are ignored. And Weatherspoon was, for this game, completely irrelevant.

The 96 Forward minutes came from Martin (40), Abdur-Rahim (35), and Garrity (21).
The 96 Guard minutes came from Marbury (38), Francis (36), and Lenard (22).
The 48 Center minutes came from Divac (30), Tsakalidis (8), and Borchardt (10).

 

[elindholm]

PART II

If only part of a player’s minutes count, as with Garrity, Lenard, and Borchardt in this example, then the site gives you that fraction of the player’s overall fantasy score. For example, Garrity played 35 minutes in his NBA game, but only 21 of those minutes count for you. That’s 60%. So, if he scored 50 fantasy points in the 35 minutes of his NBA game, you would get 60% of 50, which is 30 fantasy points.

If your players didn’t give you enough minutes for a position – like if Borchardt hadn’t played in his NBA game, and everyone else’s numbers were the same – then you get zeroes for your leftover minutes. This is bad. You should try to get your minutes covered if you can.

Since players toward the top of your lineup are more likely to have their minutes count, that’s where your better players should go (more or less). In the lineup above, if Francis happened to have a terrible game and Fisher was great, too bad: you get Francis’s game, not Fisher’s.

Some lineup changes don’t have any effect on how your team does. For example, if you were to switch Marbury and Martin in the lineup above, it wouldn’t make any difference, because all of their minutes will count either way. But if you switched Martin and Fisher, it would matter, because now Fisher would be higher on your Guard “depth chart” and Martin would be lower on your Forward depth chart.

Some managers like to organize their lineups very clearly by position, because it makes it easy to see whose minutes are most likely to count. For the example above, that would be this:

C Divac
C Mutombo
C Tsakalidis
C Borchardt
F Martin
F Abdur-Rahim
F Garrity
F Weatherspoon
G Marbury
G Francis
G Lenard
G Fisher

This lineup would produce exactly the same results as the original one.

 

[elindholm]

PART III

Some players can play multiple positions. The site handles this in a systematic way, but you have to be careful to get the results you want.

Let’s say a player, like Tim Duncan, can play both Forward and Center. The site gives you the option of listing him as “FC” or as “CF”. To switch him from one to the other, select him on your lineup page and click “Switch positions”.

What difference does it make? Well, the site will try to use Duncan’s minutes at whatever his first listed position is, and “roll over” to the second position only if he can’t use all of his minutes at his first position.

So, if you put Duncan at the very top of your lineup listed as FC, he will count all of his minutes at Forward, and none at Center. And if you list him as CF, he will count all of his minutes at Center. (The exception would be if the Spurs went into overtime and Duncan played more than 48 NBA minutes. He would use 48 minutes at Center, which would fill your team’s center needs. Then, his extra minutes would spill over and start contributing at Forward. This actually happened once last season!)

So sometimes it makes sense to put your multi-position players a little lower in your lineup. Here’s an example:

F Martin
F Abdur-Rahim
FC Duncan
F Garrity
F Weatherspoon
C Divac
(etc.)

How many minutes will Martin and Abdur-Rahim give you at Forward? You don’t know, but you figure those minutes will be pretty good. Of course, Duncan’s minutes will probably be even better, so you want to be sure to use all of his, but at which position will he be most valuable? It’s hard to guess.

So, with the above lineup, Duncan starts by filling up the Forward minutes that are left over after Martin and Abdur-Rahim make their contributions. Then, all of the rest of Duncan’s minutes count at Center. Assuming you get good minutes from all three players, you won’t have to use Garrity at all. Furthermore, you’ll use only the amount of Divac’s minutes that you need.

But be careful! If Martin sits out the game with an injury (or a suspension, heh), he’ll give you zero minutes. Then all of Duncan’s minutes will count at Forward, and he won’t make any contribution at Center. This might cause problems lower in your lineup, if you were counting on Duncan to give you some decent Center minutes.

 

[elindholm]

PART IV

Even subtle differences in how you set your lineup can have a big impact on what score your team earns, especially when you have multi-position players. Let’s look at some examples, just involving the Forwards and Centers to keep things a little simpler.

Assume that these players accomplished the following in their NBA games:

F/C Duncan – 119 fantasy points in 41 minutes
F Martin – 84 fantasy points in 40 minutes
F Abdur-Rahim – 62 fantasy points in 35 minutes
C Divac – 57 fantasy points in 30 minutes
F Garrity – 42 fantasy points in 35 minutes
C Tsakalidis – 20 fantasy points in 16 minutes

Now let’s see how your fantasy team would score with various ways of setting the lineup of those players.

Lineup #1 (position, player, minutes that count, fantasy points that count):

F Martin – 40 at Forward, 84 points
F Abdur-Rahim – 35 at Forward, 62 points
F Garrity – 21 at Forward, 25.2 points, because (21/35) * 42 = 25.2
CF Duncan – 41 at Center, 119 points
C Divac – 7 at Center, 13.3 points, because (7/30) * 57 = 13.3
C Tsakalidis – zero

Total points for this lineup (without whatever the Guards did): 303.5

Lineup #2:

F Martin – 40 at Forward, 84 points
F Abdur-Rahim – 35 at Forward, 62 points
FC Duncan – 21 at Forward and 20 at Center, for 41 total minutes, 119 points
F Garrity – zero
C Divac – 28 at Center (since Duncan took the first 20 Center minutes), 53.2 points
C Tsakalidis – zero

Total for this lineup: 318.2

Lineup #3:

FC Duncan – 41 at Forward, 119 points
F Martin – 40 at Forward, 84 points
F Abdur-Rahim – 15 at Forward, 26.6 points
C Divac – 30 at Center, 57 points
F Garrity – zero
C Tsakalidis – 16 at Center, 20 points

Note: Only 46 of 48 possible Center minutes were scored! If you didn’t have another Center lower in your lineup, you’d get zero for those leftover 2 minutes. Duncan contributes nothing at Center in this lineup, because all of his minutes get applied to Forward.

Total for this lineup (assuming no other Centers): 306.6

Lineup #4:

C Divac – 30 at Center, 57 points
CF Duncan – 18 at Center and 23 at Forward, 119 points
F Martin – 40 at Forward, 84 points
F Abdur-Rahim – 33 at Forward (since Duncan and Martin have combined for 63), 58.5 points
F Garrity – zero
C Tsakalidis – zero

Total for this lineup: 318.5

So, based on these results in the NBA games, Lineup #4 gives the highest score, narrowly over Lineup #2. But with slightly different games from your NBA players, another lineup might have done better. So there’s a lot of strategy involved, but also some guesswork.

 

[elindholm]

PART V

And finally, our scoring system:

Point scored (no matter what kind of shot): +3.0
Assist, blocked shot, steal, or defensive rebound: +3.0
Offensive rebound: +4.5
Any shot attempt (no matter from where): -0.6
Personal foul: -1.2
Turnover: -3.0
Technical foul: -3.0

This leads to team scores in the 400-500 point range, generally speaking.

I’m going to hold off a bit longer before distributing the password, just because I want to give people a chance to drop out if they won’t be that interested. There’s still plenty of time left.

 

[elindholm]

And finally...

Right now we are at 15 teams. We can't go with an odd number. If someone isn't sure they want to spend the time on this, they can drop out, or we can add someone. Either is fine, so anyone reading this (whether you are a current member of the league or not), give it some thought. Thanks!

 

[joshofaz]

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[elindholm]

bump

 

[sly fly]

Hey Eric,

I'm not sure I understand the rational behind a deduction for personal fouls.

If a guy is playing good D, he's going to pick up fouls.

Stopping a breakway bucket by fouling is a good thing.

Stepping in front of a defender going to the hoop usually means the guy is giving up his body.

That can't be said for a lot of players who don't do either.

Anyways, I thought that I would just bring this up for debate.

 

[sly fly]

Another question.

Does this site give you every imaginable stat to choose from regarding the scoring system?

If so, could you post it if you have time?

P.S. I know we had the "attendance" feature last year. That was awful, IMO.

Getting a point for a "team win" was good.

 

[elindholm]

On the main league page, click on the link for "See League Details and Scoring," in small yellow type in the upper left corner. That should answer your question. I removed the "team win" factor because it was too buggy last season.

 

[Zarko_The_Great]

Originally posted by sly fly
Hey Eric,

I'm not sure I understand the rational behind a deduction for personal fouls.

If a guy is playing good D, he's going to pick up fouls.

I agree with Sly Fly on that point.

 

[elindholm]

People seemed to like Chaplin's scoring system from last year, so I tried to leave it alone. The only things I changed (eliminated) were the attendance and team win/loss, because they were so buggy. Other than that I didn't touch it.

My personal opinion is that it makes sense to deduct for fouls. Fouls award an advantage to the opponent; therefore committing fouls is generally not a good idea. Obviously there are exceptions. But I would imagine that usually the team that commits fewer fouls in a game is more likely to be the winner.

I'd like to point out one other thing. This scoring system already favors front-court players over guards, because rebounds, on average, are worth more than assists (thanks to the offensive rebound factor). Since interior players will also tend to commit more fouls, I think of this as balancing the scales a little bit. Remove the foul penalty, and then you'll really see a bias to front-court players.

 

[sly fly]

Originally posted by elindholm
People seemed to like Chaplin's scoring system from last year, so I tried to leave it alone. The only things I changed (eliminated) were the attendance and team win/loss, because they were so buggy. Other than that I didn't touch it.

My personal opinion is that it makes sense to deduct for fouls. Fouls award an advantage to the opponent; therefore committing fouls is generally not a good idea. Obviously there are exceptions. But I would imagine that usually the team that commits fewer fouls in a game is more likely to be the winner.

I'd like to point out one other thing. This scoring system already favors front-court players over guards, because rebounds, on average, are worth more than assists (thanks to the offensive rebound factor). Since interior players will also tend to commit more fouls, I think of this as balancing the scales a little bit. Remove the foul penalty, and then you'll really see a bias to front-court players.

Point taken. However, you could balance out the front court/backcourt by giving more priority to assists and steals.

This scoring system is generally fine, but tweaks here and there can tell a broader picture. I'm ok with whatever.

 

[Chaplin]

I agree with Eric. Yes, fouls are part of the game. But you shouldn't foul, just like you shouldn't have a turnover.

But really, how much difference are you complaining about? Unless the player really stinks it up, you're still going to get positive points. And if the player really is that bad, you deserve the lower score for starting him!

 

[elindholm]

bump

If you're new to the league and haven't re-read this recently, it might be worth another look. Understanding how the scoring has a big influence on what players you want to draft.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

bump