Hot stove heater

[unc84steve]

Originally posted by schillingfan
What does 50 to 100 years ago have to do with today?

We can learn from the past because there's little reason to believe that aging patterns have changed. At least that was the hypothesis of this "mini-experiment" which is implicit in your question (i.e. that things have changed and are thus irrelevant).

It's important because no team wants to miss the next Hall of Famer. The Phils are particularly haunted by trading away Ryne Sandberg & Fergie Jenkins to the Cubs. (Though they got one from the Cards--Carlton--and the Cubs gave one to the Cards--Brock).

Anyway, just eyeballing the list, I was struck by outfielders being younger than other players & pitchers being older. Warren Spahn had a war to fight & Lefty Grove was held hostage by the International League Baltimore Orioles of the 1920's.

That's true "back then" and now.

 

[DWKB]

Originally posted by schillingfan
What does 50 to 100 years ago have to do with today?

This is a great question. Moviegeek, why did you bother to bring up things that were 100 years ago to make a point, it has nothing to do with Lyle Overbay. I don't see the point in it.

 

[moviegeekjn]

Originally posted by unc84steve
Anyway, just eyeballing the list, I was struck by outfielders being younger than other players & pitchers being older. Warren Spahn had a war to fight & Lefty Grove was held hostage by the International League Baltimore Orioles of the 1920's.

Pitchers sometimes take longer to learn their craft--Koufax languished largely unused in the Dodger pen for several years, supposedly due to wildness... but also because Alston wasn't willing to let him learn on the mound in game situations. Finally out of necessity and through the urging of a Dodger coach, Koufax was given a chance to start regularly.

Gibson also struggled with early career wildness, and was languishing under Solly Hemus (much bad blood between them) until Johnny Keane came on the scene and showed belief in his abilities.

 

[moviegeekjn]

Originally posted by DWKB
This is a great question. Moviegeek, why did you bother to bring up things that were 100 years ago to make a point, it has nothing to do with Lyle Overbay. I don't see the point in it.

Only because YOU invoked the names of Cobb and Ruth... I didn't see the relevance of the point that you were making as well, and that is what inspired the other references.

 

[DWKB]

Originally posted by moviegeekjn
Only because YOU invoked the names of Cobb and Ruth... I didn't see the relevance of the point that you were making as well, and that is what inspired the other references.

I suggest you go back through and read the thread again. Several times if neccessary. Maybe then you can grasp the relavence.

 

[moviegeekjn]

Originally posted by DWKB
I suggest you go back through and read the thread again. Several times if neccessary. Maybe then you can grasp the relavence.

Try that advice on yourself!!!!

 

[unc84steve]

Let's try to play nice. (I'm not sure I can though ).
To review this thread:

An original link to the ESPN/Baseball Prospectus preview of the 2003 D'backs. Issues raised included:

• Past contract commitments hurting the club now
• "Age, age, age" with a prediction that all the good players would decline
• Discussion of the Durazo trade
• Discussion of why Elmer Dessens 3.03 ERA was probably a fluke

Schillingfan then noted that in fact the club had got younger at 1B, catcher & SP (with John Patterson). DWKB countered that "younger, but not better" and noted how old the rookies were: notably Lyle Overbay at 26.

(ed. note: I hated the description of "D'backs getting younger when they would trade Durazo for a player 2 years older & the Kim for another 4 years older.")

Then discussion about who the club could have got for Durazo shifted to the proposed Colorado deal.

Then at the bottom of page one, schillingfan came back to the age issue relating to Lyle Overbay

Originally posted by schillingfan
DWKB I disagree with you on the age issue. 25 is an okay age for a rookie to debut. Even given the stats about productivity it is still below peak production. Don't be so rigid in your interpretations. It doesn't matter how old Overbay for purposes of are the D-Backs getting younger and better. I've seen people predict him to be a possible rookie of the year and every analysis I've seen says he should give Mark Grace type production with excellent BA and OPS because he will hit a lot of doubles.

But for injury Patterson would have debuted earlier. He's always been presumed to have high ceiling. Again, people expect him to have an excellent rookie year.

Oops.

Anyway, one debate evolved into "either Overbay won't be that great, OR the D'backs wasted some years in the minors, OR the club wisely stepped him thru."

Another debate was "you stats guys are so rigid about ages as a factor"--"no, where did I said it had to be that way for Overbay? It's just a general trend."

Then I joined in with my age obsession as things were shifting. The issue was whether stars/superstars can debut older. IMO, we discuss those players because they are easier to find. Dback John invited us to play a game of all-time all stars who either debuted or became full-time players at certain ages.

One last thing.

Originally posted by Derek in Tucson
As far as Overbay goes, although I don't see him as having a long annd glorious career with the Dbacks, I do think he'll be better than the .740(?) OPS that DWKB projects him out to. I think he'll have an OPS of .800 or better in 2003 because he's made any adjustments he's had to make at every level he's played at as a pro.

Lyle Overbay's OPS in 2003 was .767;
we'll see how many Rookie of the Year votes he gets

 

[Lefty]

I'm not going to give my opinion on this thread but it's nice to see Derek in Tucson posting.

 

[DWKB]

Originally posted by unc84steve
Let's try to play nice. (I'm not sure I can though ).
To review this thread:
[...]
One last thing.

Lyle Overbay's OPS in 2003 was .767;
we'll see how many Rookie of the Year votes he gets

Boy you really know how to kill a thread steve . I guess money talks and (expletive) walks.

 

[Ryanwb]

Originally posted by DWKB
I suggest you go back through and read the thread again. Several times if neccessary. Maybe then you can grasp the relavence.

You are such an immature jackass. Why don't you move out of your mother's basement and get a life???

 

[DbaxJ]

Ryan, you dont have to appreciate what DWKB says, you dont have to agree with him, (I know I usually dont either) but we dont need to be abusive either! Lets please keep this civil!

 

[Ryanwb]

Originally posted by DbaxJ
Ryan, you dont have to appreciate what DWKB says, you dont have to agree with him, (I know I usually dont either) but we dont need to be abusive either! Lets please keep this civil!

You don't get the abusive and profane private messages that I get from him......he is an immature bastard who needs an ass kick

 

[BC867]

Originally posted by schillingfan
Well, you were arguing like it was certain or at least felt it was highly likely that Overbay will flop.

Didn't other factors come into play upon Overbay's promotion to the D'backs?

On a team which has power at the other corner positions, Lyle could have (and still might) become a solid Mark Grace type .300 hitter playing 1B.

But on a team short on power, but still urged to swing for the seats, he failed.

Add to that Dwayne Murphy's shortcomings as Hitting Coach.

When I advocated sending Overbay back to Tucson last year, it wasn't because I didn't like his potential. It was because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I compare Lyle to J.T. Snow. Felipe Alou moved him to second in the batting order last season and he did well. But it looks like he won't be back with the Giants next year. Perhaps there is no place with Major League teams for a non-power hitting 1B.

Maybe the Cubs would want a Gracie clone.