How A Pats' Trade Sets Up A Two-For-One For The Cardinals

[Mitch]

Mitch - You can't overdraft at CB. (i.e. you can never have too many corners).

You can always use one of the three guys as a nickel corner. Also, we're talking about relatively small, quick guys who have to play physical and, therefore, are likely to get nicked more than a couple of times during a season.

If Peterson is the best available player on our board, I can practically guarantee you that, that if we don't draft him, the football gods will inflict a season-ending injury on either Toler or DRC.

Jeff...what I meant was by overdrafting at one position, a team underdrafts at another---in the Cardinals' case, they've needed a stud OLB for as long as Whiz has been HC and they have not spent a first round draft pick on one yet---they've been hoping to get lucky with later picks (Cody Brown, Chris Harrington, Will Davis, etc.) meh, not so good there---yet hopefully they have in O'Brien Schofield, who was going to be a 1st round pick before his knee injury. Will Davis has not shown pass rushing ability to date. He can play the run fairly well, but he's not going to give the team what it needs most: edge pressure on the QB.

I agree---you can never have enough quality CBs---but I also envision the addition of UFA Ike Taylor and I believe that Greg Toler and A.J. Jefferson fit Horton's zone schemes well...so the foursome of DRC, Taylor, Toler and Jefferson looks very solid to me...while we still do not have a pass rushing threat at SOLB.

 

[Duckjake]

I still can't believe you'd go for this trade....dumb

PP7 is the best athlete in the draft

and you'll give him up for 3 good players.


This is why you end up with BJ and Pace rather than Suggs.

I don't care if Pace was playing at his current level ...he is still nowhere near the beast that Suggs is.

There is a reason we are picking #5....so we need to take the best player avail at #5

I totally agree on Peterson. But the Cards mistake was drafting skillet hands not Pace. It they had taken Nnamdi Asomugha for instance instead of BJohnson along with Pace it would have been a good trade.

Of course it is really irrelevant since Suggs, Pace, Asomugha or whoever would be gone now anyway.

4 starters out of the last 16 1st-3rd round draft picks!?!?!

Extra plea: Come on DWs please break that trend.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I agree on Peterson. We already made a mistake passing on a Peterson in the draft. But Calvin Pace was our coaches problem not a player not worth a pick in the middle of the first round.

Since going to the Jets: he has averaged 60 tackles, 7 sacks and 3FF

The one season the Cards actually used him properly: 98 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 6pdf an interception and a forced fumble.

He's had a heck of a lot better career than Michael Haynes or Jerome McDougle.

So of course right as we get ready to switch to a 3-4 full time we let Pace go for nothing.

Go for nothing!

What exactly were the Cards to do, given that he performed at the end of his contract?

They made him an offer in his final year; he decided to test the waters and got a great deal in NY.

The concensus on this board at the time was that NYJ were "nuts" to spend that $$$.

And that contract, one can add, was the beinning of the end of the long term relationship between Dansby and the Cards. He made it clear as soon as it became public that he wanted more than Pace.

 

[Seandonic]

Go for nothing!

Your right about this. It was bad timing and there was no way to receive anything in return.

What exactly were the Cards to do, given that he performed at the end of his contract?

Oh I dont know...offer him a great deal also.

They made him an offer in his final year; he decided to test the waters and got a great deal in NY.

The Cards offered him a low-ball contract which was easy to say no to. Meanwhile the Jets flew him around in a helicopter, wined and dined him, treated him like the king of N.Y., and threw a ton of cash at him. Gee, who would you choose?

The concensus on this board at the time was that NYJ were "nuts" to spend that $$$.

They were "nuts"...nuts about winning and proved they, unlike the Cards would do anything to win.

And that contract, one can add, was the beinning of the end of the long term relationship between Dansby and the Cards. He made it clear as soon as it became public that he wanted more than Pace.

It certainly was the end because after Dansby saw how this ex-teammate was royally treated he knew the Cards would never match that.

All that being said I am not without hope...now that junior bow-tie has more say. He seems to be different. But just how different is still a question to me.

 

[Dayman]

Re Pace:

Pro Football Focus recently ranked Calvin as the least productive 3-4 OLB in the league in terms of pass rushing. Haggans was second.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/03/16/pass-rushing-productivity-3/

As many have stated before, PFF's stats aren't 100% accurate, but they are pretty indicative of general performance.

Although Pace is still better than anybody we have now, I'm not so sure letting him leave was the biggest mistake. Not adequately replacing him, however, is another story.

 

[Duckjake]

Re Pace:

Pro Football Focus recently ranked Calvin as the least productive 3-4 OLB in the league in terms of pass rushing. Haggans was second.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/03/16/pass-rushing-productivity-3/

As many have stated before, PFF's stats aren't 100% accurate, but they are pretty indicative of general performance.

Although Pace is still better than anybody we have now, I'm not so sure letting him leave was the biggest mistake. Not adequately replacing him, however, is another story.

And that is the main problem. Certain people seem to think that you can just go get a guy off the street to replace the 1st-3rd round picks you lose because they're too expensive. That isn't how it works. It costs high draft picks and more money to go get new guys with less experience. And then just as those new guys become experienced veterans they are let go and the cycle starts all over again.

 

[Duckjake]

Go for nothing!

What exactly were the Cards to do, given that he performed at the end of his contract?

They made him an offer in his final year; he decided to test the waters and got a great deal in NY.

The concensus on this board at the time was that NYJ were "nuts" to spend that $$$.

And that contract, one can add, was the beinning of the end of the long term relationship between Dansby and the Cards. He made it clear as soon as it became public that he wanted more than Pace.

I've heard the same lame excuses thrown out about almost every single free agent who has left Arizona.

I couldn't tell if you were talking about Leonard Davis, Karlos Dansby, Antron Rolle or Calvin Pace.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I've heard the same lame excuses thrown out about almost every single free agent who has left Arizona.

I couldn't tell if you were talking about Leonard Davis, Karlos Dansby, Antron Rolle or Calvin Pace.

and I keep seeing the same tired head-banging ADD refrain about how we could have done this or that after the fact, and ignoring the circumstances at the time. Oh... and don't forget to add Mr. Steroids (David Boston) to your list.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

and I keep seeing the same tired head-banging ADD refrain about how we could have done this or that after the fact, and ignoring the circumstances at the time. Oh... and don't forget to add Mr. Steroids (David Boston) to your list.

Add Simeon Rice to the list too. Who have we brought in to replace those guys? When your FO brings in guys like Terrence Holt, Paris Lenon, Oliver Ross, Orlando Huff, Al Johnson and other complete trash for replacements, it makes you bang your head as to why not pay for guys that were drafted highly and have been in the system for 4-6 years. It's not like the guys who left have stunk the place up and were cut 1 year into their contracts like many of the guys Graves brought in.

 

[Duckjake]

Add Simeon Rice to the list too. Who have we brought in to replace those guys? When your FO brings in guys like Terrence Holt, Paris Lenon, Oliver Ross, Orlando Huff, Al Johnson and other complete trash for replacements, it makes you bang your head as to why not pay for guys that were drafted highly and have been in the system for 4-6 years. It's not like the guys who left have stunk the place up and were cut 1 year into their contracts like many of the guys Graves brought in.

You are wasting your breath CBus. CC thinks that the Cards who have exactly 3 winning seasons since moving to Arizona 23 years ago have never made a wrong move in their entire history.

Record from 1999-2006 41-87 yessir the circumstances were just right for every move the team made.

And lets look at scoring over the next 5 seasons after 1998. Ranking in points scored:
30th,29th,20th,29th and 32nd. Ranking in points allowed: 27th,30th,22nd,29th,and 32nd.

Finally 10 years later the Cards manage to actually get a veteran team and make the playoffs two years in a row. And what do they do? The same thing. He cost too much. He didnt' want to be here. He really wasn't that good. The homers are loading up the excuse train. Meanwhile the Cards finish 5-11 and 26th in points scored and 30th in points allowed.

It is unbelievable that some people are so blinded by the Kool Aid Glasses they actually think the Cards management has had it under control for two decades and given the circumstances have made the correct personnel decision every time.

 

[Seandonic]

You are wasting your breath CBus. CC thinks that the Cards who have exactly 3 winning seasons since moving to Arizona 23 years ago have never made a wrong move in their entire history.

Record from 1999-2006 41-87 yessir the circumstances were just right for every move the team made.

And lets look at scoring over the next 5 seasons after 1998. Ranking in points scored:
30th,29th,20th,29th and 32nd. Ranking in points allowed: 27th,30th,22nd,29th,and 32nd.

Finally 10 years later the Cards manage to actually get a veteran team and make the playoffs two years in a row. And what do they do? The same thing. He cost too much. He didnt' want to be here. He really wasn't that good. The homers are loading up the excuse train. Meanwhile the Cards finish 5-11 and 26th in points scored and 30th in points allowed.

It is unbelievable that some people are so blinded by the Kool Aid Glasses they actually think the Cards management has had it under control for two decades and given the circumstances have made the correct personnel decision every time.

Totally agree with all of this.

 

[Duckjake]

Totally agree with all of this.

For good reason.

Let's look at some of the first round draft picks.

The Cards take Thomas Jones when they already have Michael Pittman. They can't decide who should start and eventually TJones is off to other fields where he rushes for 8,885 yards and 59 TDs and the Cards have to get free agents Emmit Smith and Edgerrin James. Of course not to get away from Cardinal tradition the Cards draft Beanie Wells in the first round when they already have Tim Hightower and can't decide who to start and ............

The next year the Cards draft Leonard Davis. They can't stand the prosperity of having LD play RT so move him to LT and within a couple of years the fans are having LD's gone parties. Of course not to get away from Cardinal tradition they draft Levi Brown. They can't stand the prosperity of LB playing RT so they move him to LT and fans are wanting to run him out of town.

Two years later the Cards draft Calvin Pace a prototype 3-4 OLB to play DE. Of course not to get away from Cardinal tradition two years later the Cards draft Antrel Rolle a prototype FS to play CB. The Cards let Pace go and then have to sign Travis LaBoy, Clark Haggans and Joey Porter as Free Agents and draft Cody Brown, Will Davis, and O'Brien Schofield to try and replace him.

Let's not forget the historical failures with first round QBs. Two of whom wouldn't even sign with the team. Draft a highly touted college QB at #10 in 2006 when they already have Kurt Warner and the draftee doesn't even start a full season for the Cards in 4 years. Of course in keeping with Cardinal tradition the team goes to the SB with a QB who wasn't even drafted. (Charley Johnson round 10, Jim Hart UDFA, Kurt Warner UDFA)

What a crazy franchise.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

For good reason.

Let's look at some of the first round draft picks.

The Cards take Thomas Jones when they already have Michael Pittman. They can't decide who should start and eventually TJones is off to other fields where he rushes for 8,885 yards and 59 TDs and the Cards have to get free agents Emmit Smith and Edgerrin James. Of course not to get away from Cardinal tradition the Cards draft Beanie Wells in the first round when they already have Tim Hightower and can't decide who to start and ............

The next year the Cards draft Leonard Davis. They can't stand the prosperity of having LD play RT so move him to LT and within a couple of years the fans are having LD's gone parties. Of course not to get away from Cardinal tradition they draft Levi Brown. They can't stand the prosperity of LB playing RT so they move him to LT and fans are wanting to run him out of town.

Two years later the Cards draft Calvin Pace a prototype 3-4 OLB to play DE. Of course not to get away from Cardinal tradition two years later the Cards draft Antrel Rolle a prototype FS to play CB. The Cards let Pace go and then have to sign Travis LaBoy, Clark Haggans and Joey Porter as Free Agents and draft Cody Brown, Will Davis, and O'Brien Schofield to try and replace him.

Let's not forget the historical failures with first round QBs. Two of whom wouldn't even sign with the team. Draft a highly touted college QB at #10 in 2006 when they already have Kurt Warner and the draftee doesn't even start a full season for the Cards in 4 years. Of course in keeping with Cardinal tradition the team goes to the SB with a QB who wasn't even drafted. (Charley Johnson round 10, Jim Hart UDFA, Kurt Warner UDFA)

What a crazy franchise.

I'm as frustrated as the next with some of the personnel decisions made over the years. But, I take them in the FULL context of the time, and your diatribes rarely tell the whole story.

 

[Garthshort]

If the Cardinals are going to draft a pass rusher, and Peterson is still available, the only way they can keep him away from SF is to swap first round picks with Dallas, and picking ninth select Quinn or Kerrigan. Swapping picks with the Patriots only makes sense for NE.

 

[overseascardfan]

If Peterson and Miller are off the board when #5 rolls around then I am all for it. Why would NE do it, they need a #1 receiver but Jones & Green will be gone by #17. I would ask for either the #28 pick or #60 & #92.

If we take #17 & #28:

#17 - OT Tyron Smith
#28 - OLB Jabaal Sheard
#38 - CB Brandon Harris
#69 - QB Andy Dalton
#103 - OG Ben Moffitt
#136 - ILB Kelvin Sheppard
#171 - SS Jeron Johnson
#184 - C Jake Kirkpatrick
#247 - TE Steven Skelton

If we take #17, #60 & #92

#17 - OT Tyron Smith
#38 - DE Cameron Heyward
#60 - CB Brandon Harris
#69 - OLB Sam Acho
#69 - QB Andy Dalton
#92 - OLB Dontay Moch
#103 - OG Ben Moffitt
#136 - ILB Kelvin Sheppard
#171 - SS Jeron Johnson
#184 - C Jake Kirkpatrick
#247 - Steven Skelton