How can you sit Drew when Counsell comes back?

[Ryanwb]

I like the idea that a player shouldn't lose his job while out on injury, but there is little coincidence that the club has turned it around about the time Drew took over at short.

How is Melvin going to deal with this situation when Craig comes back? Do you tell him to sit or do you throw him back into starting?

 

[KingLouieLouie]

I envision that Counsell will become the super-sub utlity player he was for the Dbacks prior to when he was dealt to the Brewers...

I dont envision him arguing being benched (ala Gonzo) since Counsell throughout his career has demonstrated being a consummate team player... Counsell understands that Drew is the long-term future and will somewhat help mentor him along....

I see Counsell playing at least twice a wk at either SS/2B and be a defensive substitution for Tracy at 3B in later innings....

And the corresponding move to be made when either Clark or Counsell are reactivated off the DL would be to demote Koplove since Green will be sent back to Tucson once he's eliglible to return off the DL.....

 

[Ryanwb]

...we're talking about Melvin here though

 

[KingLouieLouie]

...we're talking about Melvin here though

I know, but I am certain that Byrnes and Co. have intervened somewhat with directives that Melvin must play Drew on a regular basis... Perhaps it was one of the conditions in to which allowed for him to have his contract extended...
I certainly hope that is the case or else........

 

[Diamondback Jay]

True, but I don't think Melvin's short sited enough to bench Drew.. I could be wrong, but I see things going down exactly as Lou stated-- Counsell being the super-sub, utility guy who plays some in the OF, some at 3rd, some in the two MI positions.

 

[devilfan02]

Would anyone be against moving Counsell to 3rd (IMO, a def upgrade defensively to Tracy) and have a platoon of Clark/CoJack at 1B and a RF platoon of Tracy/Green. I know this won't ever happen because it would piss too many vets of (Tracy and Green) but its just a thought. We need to keep Drew in, Counsell is a must IMO as he is an adequate leadoff hitter who plays great defense not to mention all the small intangibles... Cousell will end up platooning between either 2nd, SS, 3rd every other day I bet.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

Tracy isnt a good right fielder and its already a crowded outfield. Clark isnt going to be back any time soon either.

 

[Ryanwb]

I thought Tracy would have done more this season

 

[devilfan02]

I thought Tracy would have done more this season

He was on track and then he got extended and his performance plummeted. Not saying the money influenced him but his play at the plate and in the field since he got his extension have been very unattentive which is the most disturbing thing. He makes so many mental errors in the field and his strike outs are threw the roof

 

[Stallion]

Drew should play the rest of the year. It's better for the 2006 D-backs and much better for the 2007 D-backs.

But my gut says Counsell will be starting again when he's back off the DL.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Which one or all of the following tired baseball cliches to describe a below average player that tries hard will Melvin use to justify Counsell returning as starting SS?

"Counse knows how to win."

"Counse has that veteran leadership that we need on the field"

"Counse does all the little things"

"Counse brings an energy to the ballpark"

"Counse plays the game the right way"

"Counse is a lunch pail guy"

 

[KingLouieLouie]

I thought Tracy would have done more this season

This is where Melvin somewhat has to be at fault.. and the following applies to CoJack...

Neither CoJack and Tracy should be hitting higher than 6th in the line-up.. especially CoJack batting clean-up....

Melvin is aiding & abetting them to have the "pull" mentality at the plate, whereas both would thrive (which is where Tracy excelled last year) in using the spray the ball to all fields approach which would enable them to hit HRs once every so often..... Melvin tends to take his younger players out of their elements and I dont know if we'll see any of these uber phenoms live-up to their full potential until Melvin is no longer manager..

If people say how managers may impact a team is overrated is deadly wrong.. Exhibit A would certainly be this year's Tigers.... Jim Leyland has made an absolute difference.. the Tigers (barring Rogers and Jones who are essentially on the downside of their careers anyways) have the same personnel as in previous years, but a manager and coaching staff that are top-notch to elevate their level of play.....

Ideally... the line-up should be:

1) Byrnes-CF
2) Drew-SS
3) Gonzalez-LF
4) Green-RF (he's a veteran and knows he doesnt have to pull all the time to generate offense)
5) Estrada-C
6) Tracy-3B
7) Hudson-2B
8) Jackson-1B

Then perhaps hit Estrada 4th and Quentin 5th since Carlos has truer sheer power compared to the others and with his bat speed generates ample power.......

Hudson would bat 2nd, however, his stats batting 7th are astronomical and Melvin should never take him out of the spot in the order...

Next year though.. the Dbacks obviously have to add a legit power bat to the order..someone who is imposing and has a long track record of high power numbers.. but dont know if they'll invest in power when of course starting pitching is a higher priority and Im certain that Kendrick and co. are still trying to keep that payroll budgeted rather lower.. but.. with several players earning minimal contracts next year.. they could afford to lure some of the higher priced FAs and keep their payroll at around $65-$75 mil....

 

[devilfan02]

Which one or all of the following tired baseball cliches to describe a below average player that tries hard will Melvin use to justify Counsell returning as starting SS?

"Counse knows how to win."

"Counse has that veteran leadership that we need on the field"

"Counse does all the little things"

"Counse brings an energy to the ballpark"

"Counse plays the game the right way"

"Counse is a lunch pail guy"

Sorry but Counsell is far from a "below average palyer"

 

[devilfan02]

Neither CoJack and Tracy should be hitting higher than 6th in the line-up.. especially CoJack batting clean-up....

If people say how managers may impact a team is overrated is deadly wrong.. Exhibit A would certainly be this year's Tigers.... Jim Leyland has made an absolute difference.. the Tigers (barring Rogers and Jones who are essentially on the downside of their careers anyways) have the same personnel as in previous years, but a manager and coaching staff that are top-notch to elevate their level of play.....

Ideally... the line-up should be:

1) Byrnes-CF
2) Drew-SS
3) Gonzalez-LF
4) Green-RF (he's a veteran and knows he doesnt have to pull all the time to generate offense)
5) Estrada-C
6) Tracy-3B
7) Hudson-2B
8) Jackson-1B


Next year though.. the Dbacks obviously have to add a legit power bat to the order..someone who is imposing and has a long track record of high power numbers.. but dont know if they'll invest in power when of course starting pitching is a higher priority and Im certain that Kendrick and co. are still trying to keep that payroll budgeted rather lower.. but.. with several players earning minimal contracts next year.. they could afford to lure some of the higher priced FAs and keep their payroll at around $65-$75 mil....

Agree 100%. I have been wondering why Melivin hasn't put Cojack down in the lineup to take some pressure off and let him hit the line drives he was hitting so often and early this season. Same with Tracy, he has obviously struggled and moving him out of the "pressure spots" in the lineup might loosen him up.

I used to be one of those guys who thought MLB managers were easily replaceable and a tad bit overrated. Ozzy Guillen drastically changed my mind last season. The season before the Sox hired Ozzy, Jerry Manuel was the manager and was similar to Melvin. He was quiet yet strategic yet he didn't get the full potential out of his young players and pitchers. That quickly changed when Ozzy lit a fire under their @#$ and got full potential out of all his players- starters, bench bullpen. This is exactly why I wish we could have hired Backman. He would have been great for our young guys and demanding of the vets.

As for the power bat, I would love to see us attempt at getting Carlos Lee. I know his tag will be high but if we could see what it takes, he would be a great fit. If we could trade Green, I see no excuse as to why we couldn't sign an ace and Carlos Lee. A bat like Lee's would take a lot of pressure of Cojack, Q, and Tracy

 

[KingLouieLouie]

I noticed on another thread there was a debate about Lyle Overbay.... Jackson and Tracy are pretty much enduring the same growing-pains that Overbay did.... Back then Brenly wanted Overbay to hit HRs with higher frequency or else they would go out and pursue a 'legit power-hitting 1B and we obviously know what ultimately happened in the end...

Most of the good teams around the Majors have a true power source both or either of the corner positions, but of course that's the area in which Jackson and Tracy arent adequate with....

As far as going after a power-hitter such as Carlos Lee or any other FA OF'er, that would be a long-term block for Young in CF or perhaps Carlos Gonzalez to play either LF or RF (I believe Quentin would become the every day LF next season)....

I might be of the minority.. but I feel the best trade bait for the Dbacks would be Jackson.. he's the most expendable and could be solid lure for a solid starting pitcher....

Next season Green (assuming he isnt traded before '07) will finish off the final year of his contract being the Dbacks every day 1B, Quentin would take over in LF, Chris Young in CF, and then the Dbacks re-sign Byrnes to a 2-yr contract and have him switch over to RF to be a stop-gap until Carlos Gonzalez is ready enough......

I heard how Upton has been struggling in CF, so perhaps the Dbacks should return him back to 2B... sign Hudson until '08-'09 and by then Upton should be ready to replace him and help form one of the best DP combos of all-time along w/Drew.......

I know Green doesnt solve the power problem at 1B, however, at least he's a veteran hitter who knows to compensate for his loss of HR potential..... Plus.. getting an above-average starting pitcher for Jackson would naturally be a boon....

Obviously I would prefer to keep Jackson over Green, but Green would decline most of any trade proposals and no one is willing to accept his contract anyways.. plus. .the Dbacks would of course get more in return for Jackson.....

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Sorry but Counsell is far from a "below average palyer"

12th in the NL among shortstops in OPS.
2nd to last in MLB in OBP for leadoff hitters.

In a hitter's park that makes him a below average player even with his above average defense (the drop off from him to Drew in this area is negligible). I'd have no problem with him if he was playing 2B and batting eighth but at a premier position batting leadoff he's actually pretty sorry and that's where BoMel will inevitably play him.

And Jackson batting eighth could be one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. Take one of the best OBP prospects in the last decade and put him at #8 hole where he has to hack away. Brilliant! And that's without getting to the part where it was recommended that Green finish out his contract for one more year at 1B so we could send Jackson packing. Good lord.

 

[Ryanwb]

Sorry but Counsell is far from a "below average palyer"

Come on dude.... take off them teal colored glasses

 

[KingLouieLouie]

And Jackson batting eighth could be one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. Take one of the best OBP prospects in the last decade and put him at #8 hole where he has to hack away. Brilliant! And that's without getting to the part where it was recommended that Green finish out his contract for one more year at 1B so we could send Jackson packing. Good lord.

Unfortunately, Jackson might not live up to his full OBP potential batting clean-up where he tends to want to pull the ball w/more frequency than he would elsewhere...

And also, I didnt mean necessarily banishing him to the 8th part of the line-up permanately, however, in the interim...His OBP in fact is considerably lower now than it was at the Minor League level, so perhaps using that as an indicator of his potential slightly skewed.... His stats would improve once he's removed from hitting in those pressure spots in the order that isnt completely suited for him at this time....

Also.. my thought on possibly trading Jackson was incomplete.... I should have added that the Dbacks pursue a power-hitting 1B as a FA once Green's contract expires.... Only close 1B prospect at this time is Chris Carter, but he more than likely would be used as trade-bait (in some package deal more than likely).....

I'm just insiutating that Jackson doesnt have the upside as the other highly regarded prospects have.... this is essentially what Jackson will forever be... A 1B that will never hit for power (which is the main asset a ML 1B needs) and is a major defensive liability..... I see him being traded for a starting pitcher or perhaps as part of a trade for a solid 1B (but tremendously better than Sexson obviously)....

Another reason why I slated Jackson for 8th is.. who else would you hit #8 in the line-up at this moment? Drew get more ABs per game.. so batting him 8th is really just as bad as hitting Jackson at #4.... I think Drew is a better major league hitter than Jackson at this time.. but perhaps it could be because he's not under the intense scrutiny of hitting clean-up on a regular basis... we shall see.... But we all agree that Melvin has no rhyme of reason why he's still manager.. let alone signed for 2-more years...

 

[devilfan02]

Come on dude.... take off them teal colored glasses

Your right- his gold glove defense at 3 different positions, adequate hitting, bunting ability, base running, clubhouse leadership are all "below average." At this point, I'd rather have him in the lineup everyday as opposed to Tracy. I'll keep my teal colored glasses on if that means one of the most underrated players gets a spot in our lineup (not at Drew's expense however)

 

[Ryanwb]

Your right- his gold glove defense at 3 different positions, adequate hitting, bunting ability, base running, clubhouse leadership are all "below average." At this point, I'd rather have him in the lineup everyday as opposed to Tracy. I'll keep my teal colored glasses on if that means one of the most underrated players gets a spot in our lineup (not at Drew's expense however)

Counsell hasn't won a single gold glove at any position, let alone 3. The rest of your observations are all bunk based on the fact that he is one of , if not the lowest rated leadoff hitters in the entire game.

Let's face some reality here.........

 

[devilfan02]

Counsell hasn't won a single gold glove at any position, let alone 3. The rest of your observations are all bunk based on the fact that he is one of , if not the lowest rated leadoff hitters in the entire game.

Let's face some reality here.........

Did I say anything about his leadoff ability? Who's saying he will bat leadoff when he gets back anyways. If he finishes the year strong defensively, if he plays enough that is, he will get attention for a gold glove. Its unlikely but if he would have stayed healthy he would of had a shot

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Your right- his gold glove defense at 3 different positions, adequate hitting, bunting ability, base running, clubhouse leadership are all "below average." At this point, I'd rather have him in the lineup everyday as opposed to Tracy. I'll keep my teal colored glasses on if that means one of the most underrated players gets a spot in our lineup (not at Drew's expense however)

Is that you BoMel?

 

[Bada0Bing]

I like the idea that a player shouldn't lose his job while out on injury, but there is little coincidence that the club has turned it around about the time Drew took over at short.


I totally disagree. The best player should play.

 

[Phill11]

Did I say anything about his leadoff ability? Who's saying he will bat leadoff when he gets back anyways. If he finishes the year strong defensively, if he plays enough that is, he will get attention for a gold glove. Its unlikely but if he would have stayed healthy he would of had a shot

I love Counsell to death but even I know he's not a gold glover let alone an adequate lead-off hitter. Counsell a couple years ago was a great 2 hole hitter. Now he's nothing more than a utility guy with an occasional start.