How come you guys are always complaining when Graves doesn't get someone?

Crazy Canuck

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Edge was not coveted. He was considered a RB who was on his last legs. I know you said this year, but the Cards consistently over pay for mediocre talent, see Portrer, Bradley, Johnson etc, and that makes it even more frustrating. Why not spend the money on talented players instead expecting proven mediocre players like Paris Lenon to come in and suddenly be good players. Demetrius Bell is available and fills a substantila need. Why would they let him leave unless there is a medical issue we don't know about. We'll find out about that. Why not make a play for Kameron Wimbley? Do you think he pulled Tennessee out of a hat? The Titans contacted him and showed a strong interest. That's why he's going there. Graves doesn't do that.

Wimbley is getting 5 yrs at $35M in Tenn. Nice player, but that's a little much for a guy whose averaged 7 sacks a year over his career. Maybe a serious thoight in a year when Cards aren't tight against the CAP.
 

tnmike

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Um, Yeah.

Exactly.

We "poop" on Graves because the organization needs to become more competitive, and attract that kind of talent. There is a reason these players don't want to come here, and it is not the coach, the system, the location, or the fans, IMHO. It is the reputation that this organization is a loser, and cheap.

Yes, you can fight that claim all you want, and even if the reputation is untrue, it is how the league, and its players think, and true or not, that is all that matters.
Everyone doesn't want to live in Arizona, some people want to live and work elsewhere. Its not always about money or the team. Sometimes its just about where they want to be or their family or just the team they grew up dreaming to play for. Everything that doesn't always go your way isn't always somebodys fault or screw up. Why can't some of the genius's on here get that?
 

RugbyMuffin

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Um, Yeah.

Exactly.

We "poop" on Graves because the organization needs to become more competitive, and attract that kind of talent. There is a reason these players don't want to come here, and it is not the coach, the system, the location, or the fans, IMHO. It is the reputation that this organization is a loser, and cheap.

Yes, you can fight that claim all you want, and even if the reputation is untrue, it is how the league, and its players think, and true or not, that is all that matters.

As a member of the NFL Alumni you, of course, would know. ;)

The Cards at $119M lead the League in cash spent last offseason. Some boycott!

Oh boy you got me there. I didn't play football, and the Cardinals made the poor decisions of paying Kolb, Chansi Stuckey, Stewart Bradley, Daryn College, Levi Brown, Joey Porter, Early Doucet, and host of other "talent" crazy amounts of cash that amounted to an 8-8 season really got me there.

Who said anything about money anyway. I am talking about decisions, and talent. So, great point, yet I have no idea what it has to do with the subject.

My assumptions are no more valid than the assumptions made at the beginning of this post.

At least my opinion/assumption has some examples to back them.

The laundry list of talent and players that this organization has not kept, or not signed when the opportunity arose FAR exceeds the talent kept, and the talent brought in through free agency. I would say the talent lost is about 5 times the list of talent kept.

Proof? Look at this record for this football team throughout its existence.

To be fair, I think the organization does well with what it has to work with, but they are NOT a competitive organization, and it costs them opportunities in my very, extremely, humble opinion.

The man asked a question at the start of the thread, and I answered it. He don't like the answer, then don't ask the question.
 
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PJ1

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My assumptions are no more valid than the assumptions made at the beginning of this post.

At least my opinion/assumption has some examples to back them.

The laundry list of talent and players that this organization has not kept, or not signed when the opportunity arose FAR exceeds the talent kept, and the talent brought in through free agency. I would say the talent lost is about 5 times the list of talent kept.

Proof? Look at this record for this football team throughout its existence.

To be fair, I think the organization does well with what it has to work with, but they are NOT a competitive organization, and it costs them opportunities in my very, extremely, humble opinion.

The man asked a question at the start of the thread, and I answered it. He don't like the answer, then don't ask the question.[/QUOTE]

Kind of tough to argue with this.
 

RugbyMuffin

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Everyone doesn't want to live in Arizona, some people want to live and work elsewhere. Its not always about money or the team. Sometimes its just about where they want to be or their family or just the team they grew up dreaming to play for. Everything that doesn't always go your way isn't always somebodys fault or screw up. Why can't some of the genius's on here get that?

Seriously ?

Can get a job where I have this kind of mentality present for my performance ?

That would be great, just sit back and blame everyone and everything else for the short coming of the million dollar a year job that I do.

And thanks for that prime example of what I mean when I talk about lack of competitiveness.

Who dreamed of some day becoming a Cardinal ?

I am sure there are young players now who said, " Look at Dave Brown and the Cardinals! Wouldn't it be great to play on that team."

The reputation you have, you usually earn. I wonder why some of the geniuses can't get that ?
 

tnmike

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Seriously ?

Can get a job where I have this kind of mentality present for my performance ?

That would be great, just sit back and blame everyone and everything else for the short coming of the million dollar a year job that I do.

And thanks for that prime example of what I mean when I talk about lack of competitiveness.

Who dreamed of some day becoming a Cardinal ?

I am sure there are young players now who said, " Look at Dave Brown and the Cardinals! Wouldn't it be great to play on that team."

The reputation you have, you usually earn. I wonder why some of the geniuses can't get that ?
What a great outlook on life. I sure hope you don't carry your black cloud attitude with you everywhere you go. This is a big world and everybody doesn't want to be or go everywhere you think they should. Money isn't everything. Maybe someday you will realize that.
 

Pariah

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The title question "why do we blame Graves" might be legit. I don't think Graves has the autonomy needed to perform his GM functions like most of his peers. The Bidwills are still very involved.

This is not an endorsement of Graves--in fact, it could be construed as one more thing that's wrong with him. He needs to grow a pair and say to M. Bidwill "hey man, this isn't the way this is supposed to work. Let me do my job." ...and then we could accurately judge Graves. Until then, Graves is just a cog in a broken system.

(My sources on this perspective come from people that are close to the team--both ownership and recently retired players. Take it for what you will.)
 

pinetopred

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I do not envy any GM, if you are overly proactive and pay a guy what you think he is worth(Bradley/Kolb to list a few) and they don't pan out your an idiot. If you drag you feet because you are unsure of his worth(Bell/Wimbley) your an idiot. If you hit on a couple of guys they get tossed in the foder like they aren't really that good (College/Lennon/Marshall) This is the fun part about these boards we get to play GM with nobody nitpicking our every wish. Its fun to throw out names, act like we have some knowledge just like all those so called experts that had no idea what PM was doing but they all had an opinion. These boards have a wide range of views some very negitive some very positive and the truth usually is somewhere in the middle.
 

RugbyMuffin

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What a great outlook on life. I sure hope you don't carry your black cloud attitude with you everywhere you go. This is a big world and everybody doesn't want to be or go everywhere you think they should. Money isn't everything. Maybe someday you will realize that.

LOL.

WOW!

We are talking football. I am a fan, and I pay good money to complain about the team and the boss if I deem fit.

Seem like your only retort to my arguement is personal attacks, so I see that your gum drops and candy canes approach has little substance to it other than to insult the person, and not comment on the topic. Which is fine.

If money isn't everything then why do they refer to the NFL as a business, why shut down operations last year, and quarrell over it ? It is not my fault your niave, and that you cannot debate a topic, only try to insult a person. BTW, if money doesn't matter please send me all you have.

Good day to you sir.
 
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tnmike

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LOL.

WOW!

We are talking football. I am a fan, and I pay good money to complain about the team and the boss if I deem fit.

Seem like your only retort to my arguement is personal attacks, so I see that your gum drops and candy canes approach has little substance to it other than to insult the person, and not comment on the topic. Which is fine.

If money isn't everything then why do they refer to the NFL as a business, why shut down operations last year, and quarrell over it ? It is not my fault your niave, and that you cannot debate a topic, only try to insult a person. BTW, if money doesn't matter please send me all you have.

Good day to you sir.
It would help if you knew what you are talking about but you don't. so rant and rave all you want. Its not against the law to do that.
 

RugbyMuffin

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I do not envy any GM, if you are overly proactive and pay a guy what you think he is worth(Bradley/Kolb to list a few) and they don't pan out your an idiot. If you drag you feet because you are unsure of his worth(Bell/Wimbley) your an idiot. If you hit on a couple of guys they get tossed in the foder like they aren't really that good (College/Lennon) This is the fun part about these boards we get to play GM with nobody nitpicking our every wish. Its fun to throw out names, act like we have some knowledge just like all those so called experts that had no idea what PM was doing but they all had an opinion. These boards have a wide range of views some very negitive some very positive and the truth usually is somewhere in the middle.

Well said.

FTFY, I wouldn't add Marshall to players that Graves has done good by.

Graves has had his hits, but he has had a lot of misses as well.

Yet, you are 100% correct, better to be on a board then that actual GM. It is a thankless job.

Yet, Graves gets paid a boatload of cash for the criticism he takes, and we as fans pay good money to make those criticism.

Regardless if some pretentious person wants everyone to be positive, be nice, hold hands, and skip through the meadows together.
 

RugbyMuffin

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It would help if you knew what you are talking about but you don't. so rant and rave all you want. Its not against the law to do that.

:lmao:

And you do of course right ? Know what you are talking about, right ?

Goodness. How tall of a ladder you need to get off that horse of yours.

Can you send me a panphlet and how to be a proper fan, and good person ? Please ?\

Come on. I don't know anything, teach me! Give me examples, and theories. Talk about all the good that Graves does, the examples of players not following the money, and how organizations have no control over bringing players in. Show me something besides insults, cause they are just something for me to laugh at.


Jeez, can't even have a different opinion about something. If you do, your dumb, stupid, clueless, a horrible person with no values, and should be bannished. LOL. This place is so much fun sometimes.
 
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Catfish

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future-----In answer to your question in the initial post about why we are so down on Graves, try to understand that, (while you visit here occasionally), we have been here day after day, week after week, year after year, WAITING for our organization to make that one signing that will put us over the top.

Right now, we are poised to complete the re-structuring of out O-line. We have brought in three O-linemen to look at in free agency, 1-guard (very expensive), 2-guard (not so expensive), 3-a left tackle (not so expensive). We released our (too expensive) tackle and then re-signed him at a lower salary, (very good). We signed the not so expensive guard that we brought in, also good. If we would simply sign the visiting tackle, we would be light years ahead of where we have been with our O-line for years now. The problem is that we haven't done so. The truth is, we may not have even signed the not so expensive visiting guard, (except that his wife wanted to be here), so he signed. Note: the encouragement to do so did not come from Graves, but from his wife who lived here growing up. Now we sit and wait.

The problem is that this happens each and every year. Last year we made a huge number of signings, only to stop short of getting one of several available Wide Receivers who were in our price range. The front office and coaching staff had simply decided that they had ENOUGH receivers. We never pursued a #2 WR, electing to go on the cheap with the tight ends we had signed. Well, Todd Heap was injured nearly all year, and we were always one receiver short of getting the job done.

The year before, we brought in Joey Porter and a linebacker. After working out, (and waiting all weekend), the linebacker left without getting an offer from our FO and signed with his former team. Joey Porter, (who wanted to play here), had to embarass the front off office by going to the media and asking for an offer. NOW he was no prize catch to be sure, but he too would have been gone if not for the fact that he WANTED to play here badly enough to call out the FO.

Sadly, this has been the pattern for those of us that live Cardinals football everyday. It gets old quickly, and eventually becomes something that we choke on year after year. They select players that the scouts say we can use. They bring them in for visits, and then they stop, (just short of signing that one or two players that will make the difference for the team for that particular year). We have ALWAYS had the money to do so-----we just don't do it, electing to sit on the money instead.

Completing a FULL roster is a GM's primary function. Ours always seems to stop short, unless someone embarasses them into finishing the job each year. It has become maddening to us fans to see this happen each year, almost without fail.

So, now we wait again for the FO to act. IF----they sign a LT we are set for the draft, and a chance to set up our O-line for the next 7-10 years. If not, we will once again go into a season, either being able to run block, (or to pass block), but not both, OR have depth, (or no depth), and it is due to our lack of initiative as an organization to finish the GM's job. The longer we wait, the easier it is for the visiting players to sign elsewhere.
 
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Solar7

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Seriously ?

Can get a job where I have this kind of mentality present for my performance ?

That would be great, just sit back and blame everyone and everything else for the short coming of the million dollar a year job that I do.

And thanks for that prime example of what I mean when I talk about lack of competitiveness.

Who dreamed of some day becoming a Cardinal ?

I am sure there are young players now who said, " Look at Dave Brown and the Cardinals! Wouldn't it be great to play on that team."

The reputation you have, you usually earn. I wonder why some of the geniuses can't get that ?

I don't think it's that far out of left field to think that someone might just really not want to go somewhere for whatever reasons, even if to others it might look a little crazy. I turned down the opportunity to interview for a job that would have increased what I make by literally %300, and I turned it down because I just didn't want to live in Reno. Plenty of people make decisions that aren't financial.

And who's to say that there isn't someone who became a Cardinals fan that happens to have a shot in the NFL, even if it was the Dave Brown era? I became a fan when we were downright miserable, and remained miserable. If I had enough athletic talent, I would love to play for the Cardinals.

Maybe it's not logical, but it does work that way.
 

ajcardfan

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Have you maybe ever thought, all these players don't want to play for the Cardinals. I'm sure Graves did go after Winston. I'm sure he did go after Bell. I'm sure he did go after Wimbley. These players probably just have no desire to play for the Cardinals, then you guys go all ape poop on Graves.

Did I miss the fact that Bell signed with another team? If so, who?
 

vinnymac

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Look at what Buffalo's GM did in free agency. He set a target of Mario Williams, got him to visit, and didn't let him leave without a contract. When is the last time the Cards did something like this in free agency? I'm sure Buffalo wasn't the only choice of Williams's at the beginning of free agency. Also, Buffalo got their #1 impending free agent re-signed at the deadline in Steve Johnson. Graves let stars like Warner, and I even think Fitz was available at one time at the beginning of FA, but I could be mistaken, hit the open market. Campbell will be the next to go. It would be nice for Graves to for once say we're going after this guy and get him. Hell, Graves couldn't even keep Richard Marshall. I don't consider him a big loss but if your DC call him the teams defensvie MVP and he can be re-signed at a price that isn't cost prohibitive, why is he now in Miami? According to Marshall, the Cards didn't even make a competitive offer. Let's face it, when it comes to free agency, Graves gets guys that are on their last contract or no one else really wants. He has never even beein the mix for a "coveted" free agent.

When the Cardinals signed Edjerrin James. Everybody on this board including me was shocked that the Cardinals got James to sign with us
 

tnmike

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I don't think it's that far out of left field to think that someone might just really not want to go somewhere for whatever reasons, even if to others it might look a little crazy. I turned down the opportunity to interview for a job that would have increased what I make by literally %300, and I turned it down because I just didn't want to live in Reno. Plenty of people make decisions that aren't financial.

And who's to say that there isn't someone who became a Cardinals fan that happens to have a shot in the NFL, even if it was the Dave Brown era? I became a fan when we were downright miserable, and remained miserable. If I had enough athletic talent, I would love to play for the Cardinals.

Maybe it's not logical, but it does work that way.
Good to see that somebody gets it
 

RugbyMuffin

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And who's to say that there isn't someone who became a Cardinals fan that happens to have a shot in the NFL, even if it was the Dave Brown era? I became a fan when we were downright miserable, and remained miserable. If I had enough athletic talent, I would love to play for the Cardinals.

Maybe it's not logical, but it does work that way.

True.

I would make an assumption that it is an exception to the rule. Deuce Lutui was a Cardinal fan, and was set to sign with the Bengals for.....wait for it.....more money.

That being said. I would definately play for the Cardinals. Just wired that way as well.

But the original topic was why the fans bash Rod Graves. Thus the responses you read.
 

RugbyMuffin

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When the Cardinals signed Edjerrin James. Everybody on this board including me was shocked that the Cardinals got James to sign with us

I was shocked that the Cardinals got Levi Brown back, at a discount. That's a feather for Rod Graves, IMO.

AND Levi Brown said he wanted to stay because he liked the Cardinals, and had "unfinished business" so that would be two strikes against me.
 

tnmike

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True.

I would make an assumption that it is an exception to the rule. Deuce Lutui was a Cardinal fan, and was set to sign with the Bengals for.....wait for it.....more money.

That being said. I would definately play for the Cardinals. Just wired that way as well.

But the original topic was why the fans bash Rod Graves. Thus the responses you read.
Lutui was going to sign for more BEFORE the Bengals found out he was a lard a$$, which the Cards already knew. Don't let the truth get in the way of your argument.
 
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