How good were the O-linemen Suggs faced?

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Ed B
I never said he was a lock. No player is a lock.

But the school of argument being used to discredit him is getting ridiculous. Now he didn't face good enough tackles in college. Guess no one should draft d-linemen from the PAC-10 because they went up against losers every week.

Ed the rationale behind it(and I started it 2 months ago) is this. Suggs had 24 sacks which is a quantum leap ahead of anybody else. so forget the 40 times he's so clearly dominant who cares?

Except if you look at his 24 sacks you start to wonder there were like 7-8 guys in the Pac 10 this year with double figure sack #'s and only one of them, rien Long, is even being considered as a first rounder other than Suggs. Fact is a lot of guys NFL teams are very iffy on(like Banta-Cain) had big sack #'s in the Pac 10. Everyone throws a lot, outside or Harris there was no big name OL in the conference. So while Suggs is clearly by far the best pass rusher in the Pac 10, how does that translate to the NFL?

I mentioned this 2 months ago Suggs had 3-4 sacks against UW this year, he never had a single sack against them his first 2 years. The primary difference is the guy who used to block him for UW graduated and they had a redshirt freshman and a soph blocking Suggs this year. Did Suggs get better htis year, certainly, but are those 24 sacks really enough to overlook his workouts?

That's the whole question, I haven't seen him enough to know the answer but I do think it's relevant to evaluate him based on who he's playing against because he won't get too many NFL starts against redshirt freshmen.

I'm fine with us taking Suggs at 6, but i understand those that aren't because all the talk about 4.65 40's has proven to be false.

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by AZCB34
From this point forward I will no longer comment on Suggs threads. I took a break on the Suggs subject for awhile a couple months ago and it is best if do so again, I guess. I don't apologize for my opinion but even I am willing to admit it has been argued to death.

Yeah, we run out of things to argue about right before the draft, so we start to cannibalize the same ideas over and over.

There's no point in debating it any further. Either they'll pick him or they won't. Believe it or not from my vigorous defense of Suggs, but I actually don't give a flying crap. Trufant would make me much happier, really.

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Ed the rationale behind it(and I started it 2 months ago) is this. Suggs had 24 sacks which is a quantum leap ahead of anybody else. so forget the 40 times he's so clearly dominant who cares?

Except if you look at his 24 sacks you start to wonder there were like 7-8 guys in the Pac 10 this year with double figure sack #'s and only one of them, rien Long, is even being considered as a first rounder other than Suggs. Fact is a lot of guys NFL teams are very iffy on(like Banta-Cain) had big sack #'s in the Pac 10. Everyone throws a lot, outside or Harris there was no big name OL in the conference. So while Suggs is clearly by far the best pass rusher in the Pac 10, how does that translate to the NFL?

How many "elite" tackles were there in all of college football last season? Your opinion, nothing more. I'm curious. I say about 3. Kwamie Harris is not one of them. He is badly overrated.

So since there are very few elite tackles in college football at this moment, isn't every DE to be measured with the same grain of salt?

And as for banta-cain and the rest, there are always plenty of players who put up big sack numbers and the NFL is "iffy" on.....in the late 90s, three NCAA sack leaders were Karon Riley, Tom Burke, and Corey Moore.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by EndZone
Actually 3 games with no sacks Neb, Stanford, and Oregon. And one game with an assist So Cal..in other words he piled on

Nope, he did get a sack against Nebraska. Here are his stats last year game-by-game so that everyone can lookie.

Nebraska - Sacked QB Junior Lord for a 1-yard loss and posted 4 hits.

Eastern Washington - Collected 5 tackles (3 solos) and sacked QB Josh Blankenship twice for minus 20 yards.

Central Florida - Registered 7 tackles (5 solos) with 3 sacks for minus-14 yards, 4 stops for losses of 24 yards and a pass break-up.

San Diego State - Added a 5-yard sack, 4 tackles and 3 stops for losses of 13 yards.

Stanford - Returned an interception 22 yards.

North Carolina - Sacked Tar Heel quarterbacks 4 times for minus-31 yards, made 5 stops behind the line of scrimmage, caused 2 fumbles and delivered 7 tackles (5 solos).

Oregon State - Had 3 tackles, a 7-yard sack and a pair of stops for minus-8 yards.

Oregon - Credited with 2 pressures, hitting QB Jason Fife on a pass play that resulted in an interception by ASU's Brett Hudson to set up a scoring drive in a 45-42 decision.

Washington - Named Pac-10 Defensive Player of the Week as he totaled a season-high 12 tackles (5 solos) with a forced fumble, 4½ sacks for minus-36 yards and 7 stops for losses of 44 yards … His 4½ sacks were the most by a Sun Devil since Derrick Rodgers matched that total vs. California in 1996.

Washington State - Sacked QB Jason Gesser for an 8-yard loss, pressured the passer twice, caused a pair of fumbles and made 4 tackles.

California - Deflected a pass and sacked QB Kyle Boller for a 4-yard loss.

Southern California - Assisted in sacking Heisman Trophy winner Carson Palmer for a 3-yard loss and came up with 6 tackles (4 solos).

Arizona - Made 8 tackles (5 solos) with 2 sacks for minus-21 yards, 3 stops for losses of 23 yards and a forced fumble.

Kansas State (Holiday Bowl) - Sacked QB Ell Roberson twice for minus-21 yards and had 4 solo tackles.

 

[EndZone]

Originally posted by Ed B
That is true, and it is true of every player.

Name one single great WR that Terrance Newman went up against or one quality defense that Byron Leftwich torched. How many of the corners that Charlie Rogers turned into puddles will be playing in the NFL someday? Not many. Who are the corners on Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, and the rest of the big 10 competition he dominated? A bunch of future UPS drivers, that's who.

Terrance Newman went up against:
Roy Williams was 3 for 16 yards no tds
Justin Gage was 2 for 56 no tds
Rashaun Woods was 8 for 77 no tds.

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by EndZone
Terrance Newman went up against:
Roy Williams was 3 for 16 yards no tds
Justin Gage was 2 for 56 no tds
Rashaun Woods was 8 for 77 no tds.

OK, if Justin Gage and Raushan Woods are elite, NFL caliber wideouts, then I give up.

You can find some tackles Suggs played against who will be future NFL backups like Gage.

 

[EndZone]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Nope, he did get a sack against Nebraska. Here are his stats last year game-by-game so that everyone can lookie.

Nebraska - Sacked QB Junior Lord for a 1-yard loss and posted 4 hits.

Eastern Washington - Collected 5 tackles (3 solos) and sacked QB Josh Blankenship twice for minus 20 yards.

Central Florida - Registered 7 tackles (5 solos) with 3 sacks for minus-14 yards, 4 stops for losses of 24 yards and a pass break-up.

San Diego State - Added a 5-yard sack, 4 tackles and 3 stops for losses of 13 yards.

Stanford - Returned an interception 22 yards.

North Carolina - Sacked Tar Heel quarterbacks 4 times for minus-31 yards, made 5 stops behind the line of scrimmage, caused 2 fumbles and delivered 7 tackles (5 solos).

Oregon State - Had 3 tackles, a 7-yard sack and a pair of stops for minus-8 yards.

Oregon - Credited with 2 pressures, hitting QB Jason Fife on a pass play that resulted in an interception by ASU's Brett Hudson to set up a scoring drive in a 45-42 decision.

Washington - Named Pac-10 Defensive Player of the Week as he totaled a season-high 12 tackles (5 solos) with a forced fumble, 4½ sacks for minus-36 yards and 7 stops for losses of 44 yards … His 4½ sacks were the most by a Sun Devil since Derrick Rodgers matched that total vs. California in 1996.

Washington State - Sacked QB Jason Gesser for an 8-yard loss, pressured the passer twice, caused a pair of fumbles and made 4 tackles.

California - Deflected a pass and sacked QB Kyle Boller for a 4-yard loss.

Southern California - Assisted in sacking Heisman Trophy winner Carson Palmer for a 3-yard loss and came up with 6 tackles (4 solos).

Arizona - Made 8 tackles (5 solos) with 2 sacks for minus-21 yards, 3 stops for losses of 23 yards and a forced fumble.

Kansas State (Holiday Bowl) - Sacked QB Ell Roberson twice for minus-21 yards and had 4 solo tackles.

Well I don't know where you got your stats but I got mine for ASU's link to gametracker.

http://livestats.thesundevils.fansonly.com/livestats/data/m-footbl/122937/mf_defense_stats.html

http://www.huskersnside.com/pdf1/10...ID=515&SPSID=3&SPID=22&DB_OEM_ID=100#GAME.DEF

 

[EndZone]

Originally posted by Ed B
OK, if Justin Gage and Raushan Woods are elite, NFL caliber wideouts, then I give up.

You can find some tackles Suggs played against who will be future NFL backups like Gage.

Woods will be a star along with Williams.

And I believe that Suggs played against two good Tackles who are backups in the NFL not this year but the past two and he was shut out...I believe it was Washington and Oregon.

 

[Ed B]

I just don't see where some of you want this argument to go. Especially the traditional leftwich supporters.

OK, Terrell Suggs played against completely awful, unworthy competition every week, which means his stats and his value as a prospect are meaningless.

Byron Leftwich, on the other hand, is not to be downgraded for having faced secondaries full of guys who will be driving buses in 6 months at places like Akron and Ohio University.

As for every other prospect in the draft, they were all playing against a future NFL star every single game.

 

[BACH]

Originally posted by Stout
I won't be disappointed getting Suggs at #6. He's a good gamble IMO. I will hold my head and groan a few minutes if we pass on Lefty, but unless we do something silly and take Kevin Williams at #6, I'll probably be happy.

I couldn't agree more. I'm for Suggs, but I basicly don't care who we draft as long as they don't reach. If they want a franchise QB - fine. If they rate Trufant over Suggs - Fine. If they feel a stud DT would help more than Suggs - Fine.

There are ten players who seperates themselves from the rest according to basicly everyone. We pick at #6 and as long as they take one of those ten players I'm happy.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by EndZone
Well I don't know where you got your stats but I got mine for ASU's link to gametracker.

http://livestats.thesundevils.fansonly.com/livestats/data/m-footbl/122937/mf_defense_stats.html

http://www.huskersnside.com/pdf1/10...ID=515&SPSID=3&SPID=22&DB_OEM_ID=100#GAME.DEF

NFL.com--->NFL Draft----> player profiles

 

[EndZone]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
NFL.com--->NFL Draft----> player profiles

I have seen nothing that supports that stat. But hey both sources could be wrong.

 

[EndZone]

Originally posted by Ed B
I just don't see where some of you want this argument to go. Especially the traditional leftwich supporters.

OK, Terrell Suggs played against completely awful, unworthy competition every week, which means his stats and his value as a prospect are meaningless.

Byron Leftwich, on the other hand, is not to be downgraded for having faced secondaries full of guys who will be driving buses in 6 months at places like Akron and Ohio University.

As for every other prospect in the draft, they were all playing against a future NFL star every single game.

And likewise for you.

I would be happy with either. Its just that Suggs is not as good as his stats say. Leftwich on the otherhand did perform for 3 or 4 years. Suggs had 1 good year and padded his stats against terrible teams.

 

[kerouac9]

This is a great thread. I'm cracking up over here. Josh McCown lit up Div II, Leftwich-style. I could light up Akron.

If we draft Leftwich, I'll appreciate the pick. I'll be disappointed that we wasted last-year's #3, and that we'll probably have to burn next year's #1 on a WR, but I'll find a way to manage.

If we draft Suggs, I'll find a way to sleep at night. I'll know there are questions, but there's some valor in taking a risky pick, especially in an area of need and when the payoff can be so huge.

If we somehow manage to grab Robertson or even Kennedy, I'll think that the Cards will be better off than with any other player, especially at #6. If we don't, then I pray that Coach Greene figures out how to coach than just showing his protoges his Super Bowl rings.

If we grab Newman or Truffant, I'll shrug and wonder why, but hope for the best for them.

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by EndZone
And likewise for you.

I would be happy with either. Its just that Suggs is not as good as his stats say. Leftwich on the otherhand did perform for 3 or 4 years. Suggs had 1 good year and padded his stats against terrible teams.

Well then I guess it's an argument between which is worse, padding your stats against crap teams for one year or doing it for 3 years. If you want to get into a level of competition argument, you don't want to do that while supporting Leftwich, because no other prospect in this draft has played anything near as bad as the glorified community college schedule he faced for 3 seasons.

When it comes down to it, like I said, I don't really care who we draft so long as it is a talented player who can (or eventually will) make an impact. leftwich? Fine. Suggs? fine. Someone else? Fine. I just want to keep the arguments logically consistent. Let's not talk about Suggs padding his stats against Central Florida and then pat Byron on the back for torching Toledo.

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by Ed B
I just don't see where some of you want this argument to go. Especially the traditional leftwich supporters.

OK, Terrell Suggs played against completely awful, unworthy competition every week, which means his stats and his value as a prospect are meaningless.

Byron Leftwich, on the other hand, is not to be downgraded for having faced secondaries full of guys who will be driving buses in 6 months at places like Akron and Ohio University.

As for every other prospect in the draft, they were all playing against a future NFL star every single game.

Agreed, Ed. I'm not trying to compare the competition. I think the Pac-10, while not as good, is certainly good enough. I think the whole Marshall argument went out the window this year with Pennington. I also think both are good picks at that spot, #6, and I won't cry over either of them. I do prefer Lefty, but that's all. Like you said, at this point, there's just about nothing that hasn't been argued.

Oh wait. I think Suggs' shoe size is only a 12-anything below a 15 and you can't anchor enough against an NFL-caliber OT and so he is going to be a complete and utter bust Just trying to lighten it up a bit!

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by EndZone
I have seen nothing that supports that stat. But hey both sources could be wrong.

Funny. Both of those links that you posted contradict each other. Look at them closely.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Ed B
How many "elite" tackles were there in all of college football last season? Your opinion, nothing more. I'm curious. I say about 3. Kwamie Harris is not one of them. He is badly overrated.

So since there are very few elite tackles in college football at this moment, isn't every DE to be measured with the same grain of salt?

And as for banta-cain and the rest, there are always plenty of players who put up big sack numbers and the NFL is "iffy" on.....in the late 90s, three NCAA sack leaders were Karon Riley, Tom Burke, and Corey Moore.

The reason people are analyzing Suggs like this on this board and not say Rogers as you asked is nobody really believes Rogers will be there when we pick, Suggs probably will and we probably would pick him if he is, so naturally he gets more discussion here.

Harris is the natural athlete guy that's why scouts love him he's pretty good for a raw player if he develops he could get really good. I haven't seen Gross play I'm very suspicious because of the conference and he almost came out of nowhere. There are some good younger players out there but I'm not sure yet who the next great OL is.

If you look at the NFL careers of the 3 NCAA sack leaders you mentioned you have to say isn't it then fair to question if Suggs is going to be a great NFL player or not? I think every DE is being measured to some extent by that same grain of salt that's why Suggs is the only one being discussed universally as a top 5 pick until his 40 times came out.

I said this last year with Freeney, he may be a good NFL player he may not but when you see how McKinnie manhandled him when they played Miami, you have to wonder. It turned out to be wrong Freeney had a great year rushing the passer, but Freeney is also faster than Suggs.

I haven't seen Suggs enough to say he'll be great or he'll be a bust but I do think it's relevant to consider how many of his sacks came in the Pac 10 against guys who are not very good. By the same token if Suggs had 3-4 sacks against Stanford we'd all be saying look the guy killed Kwame Harris he's "that good".

I didn't see ASU enough to know but it seems to me a team that allowed over 400 points on defense wasn't a great team. Does that means Suggs is overrated is anybody's guess. I think he's the most likely guy for us to pick that's for sure.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9
This is a great thread. I'm cracking up over here. Josh McCown lit up Div II, Leftwich-style. I could light up Akron.

Josh McCown never played in Div. II, he played Div. IAA (NAU level)

 

[EndZone]

Originally posted by Ed B
Well then I guess it's an argument between which is worse, padding your stats against crap teams for one year or doing it for 3 years. If you want to get into a level of competition argument, you don't want to do that while supporting Leftwich, because no other prospect in this draft has played anything near as bad as the glorified community college schedule he faced for 3 seasons.

When it comes down to it, like I said, I don't really care who we draft so long as it is a talented player who can (or eventually will) make an impact. leftwich? Fine. Suggs? fine. Someone else? Fine. I just want to keep the arguments logically consistent. Let's not talk about Suggs padding his stats against Central Florida and then pat Byron on the back for torching Toledo.

I am not patting anyone. I have responded to your posts. You said name 1 receiver I named 3. You said he had 1 0 sack game I posted the facts he had 3.

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by Russ Smith

Harris is the natural athlete guy that's why scouts love him he's pretty good for a raw player if he develops he could get really good. I haven't seen Gross play I'm very suspicious because of the conference and he almost came out of nowhere. There are some good younger players out there but I'm not sure yet who the next great OL is.

If you look at the NFL careers of the 3 NCAA sack leaders you mentioned you have to say isn't it then fair to question if Suggs is going to be a great NFL player or not? I think every DE is being measured to some extent by that same grain of salt that's why Suggs is the only one being discussed universally as a top 5 pick until his 40 times came out.

Gross is the real deal. Kiper and PFW both had him as the #1 guy <b>before</b> his senior season in my books, so I wouldn't say he came out of nowhere. He doesn't have much power but he has that great Ken Ruettgers/Gary Zimmerman "pass blocking technician" feel to him.

Harris reminds me of Kenyatta Walker. Afraid of the ugly part of the game.

The difference between Suggs and the other 3 NCAA sack leaders I listed is that none of those guys were considered elite prospects. Personnel men around the league universally consider Suggs a first round talent but for various reasons, Riley Burke and Moore were considered 4th round types at best. The difference with Suggs is his hand technique, understanding of pass rush moves, and burst, I think. Terrell Suggs is not considered an elite prospect because of his stats. If stats made prospects, Karon Riley and his 18 sacks would have gone #1, not at the bottom of the 4th round.

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by EndZone
I am not patting anyone. I have responded to your posts. You said name 1 receiver I named 3. You said he had 1 0 sack game I posted the facts he had 3.

I didn't mean "you" meaning you in particular. It was a general comment.

I'm still going to debate you that Gage and Woods count as elite competition for Newman, but overall I take your points as corrections and appreciate the info.

 

[EndZone]

Originally posted by Ed B
I didn't mean "you" meaning you in particular. It was a general comment.

I'm still going to debate you that Gage and Woods count as elite competition for Newman, but overall I take your points as corrections and appreciate the info.

Gage may be pushing it but Woods is a freaking STUD. Have you watched him much? He is very talented. Take a looksie.

 

[Ed B]

I don't see as much Big 12 as I see of other football. In fact I only saw 1 OK State game which is a real shame because in retrospect I would like to have seen more of Kevin Williams.

But I will try to see more of this guy.

 

[SECTION 11]

Rashaun Woods is a menace.
The receiver class next year is going to be dynamite.


Refer to my Master Plan, Chapter Two "Drafting our #1 WR in 2004" for any further questions.