How Hard Is It to Copy the Suns?

[George O'Brien]

When Don Nelson was hired to coach the Warriors, the first thing he started talking about was to move Murphy to Center, Dunleavey to PF, and Jason Richardson to SF. This certainly sounds like a Suns style lineup.

The problem Nelly faces (besides absolutely no defense) is going to be to get Baron Davis to play up tempo basketball. He's not alone. Very few point guards are suited to the Suns style.

The problem they face is that up temp basketabll is harder for the PG than half court basketabll. In the half court, the PG's job is to throw the ball one of the major offensive threats as part of set plays or they focus on drive the basket. In any case, the main goal is to avoid making turnovers.

Not only do most point guards lack court awareness but the ones that are above average are often very small. On defense oriented teams, PGs are often selected for their size and defensive skills rather than court awareness. (Watch the Sonics battle between Ridnour and Watson for a classic confrontation between these two approaches).

Of course, most of the guys with court awareness are not only small, but typically can't shoot. There are guys like TJ Ford who have great court awareness and can run the break well, but can't shoot. The result is that opponents back off on them and dare them to shoot. Jason Kidd is a great talent, but the Nets often struggle in the half court because Kidd is such an erratic shooter.

Few guys have both court awareness and shooting skills. The challenge of up tempo basketball is that it places much higher emphasis on court awareness. This means not only being able to pass the ball accurately (apparently not as easy as it sounds), but to be able to spot the open man and quickly get him the ball. Nash is almost unique in being able to see the open man and passing the ball without picking up his dribble. Yet at the same time, the PG has to be better than average shooter and be able to make instant decisions about whether to pass and to whom or to take a shot or to pull the ball back and run a play.

There is no time to "stop and think". Most point guards are more comfortable in slow, half court attacks because there is less to think about and more time to think

A point guard like Baron Davis is primarily focused on determining if he can beat his defender. Kick outs are generally the second and even third options. He doesn't pay attention to the entire floor and rely more on athletic ability, strength, and ability to make his own shot than on PG skills.

One of the reasons that many people think Banks was the best PG prospect for the Suns in this summer's free agency is that he is comfortable operating at top speed. That is the hardest skills to teach. At the same, the first thing the Suns did when signing Banks was to give him a crash course in shooting.

It's not that the Suns want their PG shooting much, but he has to be a threat to shoot. Nash is great shooter who is just as good at pull up mid range shots (and short range fall aways) as he is at spot up shooting. Teams that play off him have learned Nash can beat them on his own.

Are great up tempo PG's born or can they be trained? It would seem that court awareness is one of the hardest things to train. It is easy enough to say that there was something wrong with Barbosa since he was very slow at picking up court awareness and the requisite instant reactions the Suns style needs. But no one doubted that Marbury is a PG (OK some do ), but he was no better at running the break than Barbosa.

My guess is that a lot of teams will try to step up their offensive tempo this season after watching how effective and exciting the Suns style is. I'm also guessing that most will fail because their PG's aren't suited to this style.

 

[The_Matrix]

Is Nelson serious about Dungleavy at PF? I thought Ike Diogu was their man. Maybe Nelson is just desperate to keep Adonal Foyle on the bench.

 

[CaptainInsano]

I think barring any injuries the warriors are good enough to pull it off somewhat and possibly clinch a playoff seed.

 

[Errntknght]

It looks like a tough row to hoe for Nellie if he wants to remake the team into an up tempo one, though things were worse in Dallas when he started there. I wouldn't be too surprised to see him move Monta Ellis into the PG role and slide Baron over to SG - he has to do something along that line. Richardson should thrive and his European contingent, Pietrius, Biedris and Zarko, get up an down the floor fairly well. At least he has a decent bench to work with.

Of course, Nellie won't consider it copying the Suns since he has always had his teams playing up-tempo.

 

[Errntknght]

Frankly, I don't expect many teams to try to copy the Suns and certainly not ones that are successful in playing the style they're accustomed to. At one time the Boston Celtics ruled the league with up-tempo basketball for a decade and the rest of the league didn't move much in that direction so why would they copy the Suns, who haven't won a single title yet.

IMO, it won't be the individual teams that decide it is in their best interest to provide a style of basketball that more fans will pay to see - which we believe is the Suns style. We're probably right about that but I think it will take the league making the decision and changing the rules and refereeing to push teams in the Sun's direction.

Its just human nature to do what is best for oneself rather than what is for the collective good. From each teams viewpoint it is more important to make the playoffs and to compete for the title than it is to play a certain style - they've learned from long experience that success in the WL column brings out fans for them even though the league's fans as a whole are indifferent as to which teams succeed and which don't. Of course, they'd probably be happy if lots of teams played Suns style because they'd gain from more paying fans all around the league.

 

[Nash]

Frankly, I don't expect many teams to try to copy the Suns and certainly not ones that are successful in playing the style they're accustomed to. At one time the Boston Celtics ruled the league with up-tempo basketball for a decade and the rest of the league didn't move much in that direction so why would they copy the Suns, who haven't won a single title yet.

Good point. I read a lot about teams trying to get on the run and gun bandwagon, looking at the Suns' success with it but I've never been convinced the league (in terms of individual teams) is heading in that direction. Like you said, the Suns just haven't won that all important championship and have stumbled en route due mainlyh to their style of play (in other words, their weak defense.) The past 3 champions have achieved success primarily through their strong defense -
Pistons - pure defensive team
Spurs - plodding style, strong post presence, good defense
Heat - the sterling defense of Udonis Haslem, Mourning in the finals was key to their victory.

The Raptors clearly are trying to play like the Suns and my feeling is that Colangelo might be doing that to attract more fans to games and gain support for his team apart from the fact that he's run a succesful team using the same strategy.

IMO, it won't be the individual teams that decide it is in their best interest to provide a style of basketball that more fans will pay to see - which we believe is the Suns style. We're probably right about that but I think it will take the league making the decision and changing the rules and refereeing to push teams in the Sun's direction.

Though a diehard Suns fan myself, I hope the league doesn't dilute the rules further to favor scoring. As it is, Wade draws fouls when defenders breathe the air around him. And some rules are plain iffy..take for example the way Cassell drew fouls by initiating contact and tossing the ball up in a supposed shot attempt in the WC semis. That was plain infuriating. Sure Bell picked it up and used it after that but it sure isn't making the game look any better.
The game would become too one dimensional if the rules favor the offense anymore.

I was a fan of college basketball before the NBA and my college (Cincinnati Bearcats) was a very good defensive unit. When defense is executed well, it really is a beautiful thing to watch (as dumb as this may sound on a Suns' board ).

<steps off the soapbox>

 

[JCSunsfan]

It seems like EVERYONE is trying to go up-tempo, with maybe the exception of the Pistons. Even the Spurs have been talking about it.

But its much more difficult than it seems. Its very much like teams trying to copy the Bulls/Lakers/Jackson/Winter triangle offense.

First, there are nuances that coaches try to keep private. So its difficult to get it exactly right.

Second, the coach and his entire staff have to be completely committed to it. That is a rare thing. There are very few coaches who are truly up-tempo coaches. When going gets tough, they always revert. Remember when Cotton tried to implement the triangle when Kidd first came. We lost the first 13 games of the season--it was a disaster and Cotton ended up quitting over it.

Third, your team leaders have to buy in, and enthusiastically BELIEVE in the system. MJ did with the triangle, and Nash does with our "hammer" fast break. If Steph was still here, DAntoni would have quit by now.

Fourth, the organization has to be willing to take the heat from fans. They want traditional players (the triangle had no true pg, the "hammer" offense has no place for a traditional center). In our case, we have to have versatile, fast players, who can shoot. There are some great players that wouldn't play great in our system, and there are some players who don't look so hot elsewhere who will look great here. The GM has to understand this, brush aside all the voices that complain, and doggedly get the personnel that work in the system.

So, NO, its not easy to duplicate.

 

[JCSunsfan]

BTW. Does our offense have a name?

Nominations

Up-Tempo
Steve Nash Offense
"Hammer" Offense (named after the slot that Amare or Boris usually fills on the break)

But my favorite would be.

7 Second Offense

 

[The_Matrix]

O-Town: Every Seven Seconds

Every seven seconds
D'Antoni starts begging
Your drive and kick is wreckin' me
Until you shoot a three!
8.57 a minute
514.29 times an hour
Another open hammer!
Until you shoot a three! (until you shoot a three)

 

[Ryanwb]

Often imitated, never duplicated

 

[Gaddabout]

The trick to the Suns offense is not the tempo. Anybody can put up a shot in 7 seconds or less. The trick is the half-court spacing and the selflessness. It's really, really hard to get guys with limited college experience to learn spacing. The game moves so fast, and if you didn't show up at training camp with a decent basketball IQ, you're lost. It only takes one player to blow up the spacing and rotation and allow a defense to clamp down on the ball as it swing around. It goes without saying that getting today's NBA players to make the extra pass for the team runs counterpoint to what the NBA actually celebrates.

That said, it doesn't really matter what schemes Don Nelson is using. You could give him a roster fit for a freak show (which I suspect is his preference), and he'd find a way to turn them into a scoring machine that gets to the playoffs.

 

[George O'Brien]

I lived in San Francisco when Nelly was last coach there, so I've seen the how creative he can be. However, when he left he went to the Knicks and was a huge disaster. Ewing refused to change his style and all but drove Nelly out of town.

From my observation, D'Antoni is far more committed to the concept of speed ball than Nelly. Nelly will have his guys push tempo, but not with the relentless persistence that D'Antoni requires. Nelly will find a role for tough rebounders with limited offensive skills like Tyrone Hill and Fortson that D'Antoni would never play.

The odd part about Nelson is that people get an image of his teams that is not always matched by the facts. For example, his best team was his 2002-03 Mavs which went 60-22. If you asked most people, they'd say that team did it strictly with offense and no defense. They had offense, averaging 103.0 ppg, but their defense held opponents to 43.8% shooting, only 34% for three, plus they had 5.48 blocks per game. (However, they were out rebounded by 3 rpg). Holding opponents to 43.8% shooting is excellant. However, this is Don Nelson, so success had to be due to his offense.

Ultimately the Mavs lost in the WCF to the Lakers following an injury to Dirk. The next summer the team made a lot of personnel change and were not as successful.

 

[Errntknght]

Two possible names from the past:

'Fast-break' basketball was the usual name for it when the Celtics were doing it.

'Run and gun' was originally attached to the style the Nuggets played, must have been in the early seventies. Doug Moe was the coach if I recall correctly. Unlike the Celtics they didn't play much defense and that name has connoted a casual approach to D ever since. The Suns' running style was called that, too, around that time. Phoenix and Denver has some super high scoring games... I think in one game at the height of it they each scored over 170 points in regulation. Needless to say neither team won a title with that style of play and my recollection is that the Nugs were never a factor at all in the playoffs. Later on the whole WC conference was tagged as 'run and gun', which they were compared to the 'grind it out' halfcourt style of the EC with their bruising defense.

The Lakers 'showtime' included a good deal of up-tempo play but I don't recall it ever being called 'run and gun' - probably because they gave more than lip service to defense.

Year before last, I'd have said 'run and gun' was a fitting name for the Suns style but last year they made an effort to defend and even made a conscious effort to get players whose strong suit was defense. In the past they would pick up a defender now and then - Maurice Lucas, Dennis Johnson, Don Buse, Mark West - but it always seemed accidental.

Right now I'd have to say "Nash's offense" is the most accurate description of what the Sun's play - that includes both the up-tempo part and when they are forced into a half court set. There's really no evidence that D'Antoni could do much of anything without Stevie working his magic - but to Mike's credit he does let him do what he does best and gives his shooter's the green light.

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm not sure that defense is relevant in discussing the Suns offense. Obviously teams that load up on big, defense oriented guys don't play the Suns style, but many running teams have played better than average defense. The perception that they don't is that too many writers focus on total opponent's points rather than on points per possession.

Back to "what to call the Suns offense", I think it is deceptive to describe the Suns as simply a fast break team. Traditional fast break teams focus on getting layups. Often teams run because they can't shoot and this is the only way they can score.

There is some superficial resemblence to the old Paul Westhead Loyola Marymount/Denver Nuggets team that emphasized not only running, but quick shots. In his first game in Denver (1990-1991), the Nuggets lost to Golden State 158-162 on the way to a 20 win season (and only 24 the following season). It's not jus that the Suns have had much more success than Westhead, the Sun's style is vastly more team oriented than Westhead's Nuggets. There was another factor, the Suns are vastly better shooters. Inspite of having Walter Davis and Orlando Woodridge, the 1990-91 Nuggets shot only 44% from the field and shot very poorly for three.

A key to the Suns offense is the objective of creating open three point shots in their early offense. D'Antoni's theory is that the longer the offense waits, the greater the advantage is for the defense. But this is not like Westhead's style which did not discriminate between good shots and bad ones, D'Antoni wants quick ball movement to get the ball to the open man. Open shooters are expected to shoot and get into trouble if they don't. But they are also expected to hit their shots and averaged 47.9% from the field.

The key to the Suns is not so much their running, but having five outside shooters on the floor at all time with a green light to shoot when open. They focus on spreading the floor and finding the open man. In short, the running is not an end in itself, but a means to create open three point shots.

I doubt there has ever been a team that was designed that way. Prior to the three point shot, it was simply not feasible. Since then, running teams have rarely been good at outside shooting and certainly have not emphasized it like the Suns.

In the Suns 20 playoff games, the Suns shot 470 three point shots and hit 39.1% of them. (In the regular season, the Suns shot 2097 three pointers and hit 39.9%)

If anything, the Suns style is about "Run and Bomb".

 

[Nash]

If anything, the Suns style is about "Run and Bomb".

errr.. considering the negative connotation associated with 'bomb' of being a miserable failure, 'run and gun' or maybe 'run and shoot' are more apt.

 

[Gaddabout]

'Run and gun' was originally attached to the style the Nuggets played, must have been in the early seventies. Doug Moe was the coach if I recall correctly. Unlike the Celtics they didn't play much defense and that name has connoted a casual approach to D ever since. The Suns' running style was called that, too, around that time. Phoenix and Denver has some super high scoring games... I think in one game at the height of it they each scored over 170 points in regulation. Needless to say neither team won a title with that style of play and my recollection is that the Nugs were never a factor at all in the playoffs. Later on the whole WC conference was tagged as 'run and gun', which they were compared to the 'grind it out' halfcourt style of the EC with their bruising defense.

Moe ran a motion offense that defied structure. It was constantly adjusting and adapting to the defense, and he had the perfect players to run. Everyone on that team could run and score, and the visiting team was usually sucking wind at the high altitude.

Some guy named Tex Winters wrote a book in the early sixties called the Triple Post Offense that influenced Moe. Then some flake for the Bulls truly bought into the system and ran the original Triple Post -- also known as the triangle -- in Chicago, taking the ball out of Michael Jordan's hands. What a jerk that guy was.

 

[Nash]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I was reading through hoopshype today and coincidentally saw an article about the 57-69 Celtics dynasty and their style of play. There were quite a few areas where I could see an interesting correlation with the current Suns team. The full article can be found at http://www.hoopshype.com/articles/celtics_lazenby.htm[/FONT]

Here are a few interesting excerpts from the article.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Auerbach believed deeply in the running game as a strategy for out-distancing the madness. That was perfect, because he had Bob Cousy, the Houdini of the Hardwood, running the point on that first great team.[/FONT]

Auerbach - DAntoni connect

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"He was the greatest innovator of the game," Most said of Cousy. "He had such a fabulous imagination. I think the greatest passer who ever lived. He could throw any kind of pass. The minute he touched the ball his head was up and he was looking down court looking for the open man. It was his philosophy to do it with the pass rather than the dribble. But if he had to dribble, if they forced the dribble, he could make you look like a fool. He really could. He had all the moves of a Globetrotter. And he never was lacking in confidence."[/FONT]

Cousy - Nash connect
Similarities - brilliant passing
Difference - dribbling. Nash likes to keep the dribble alive to keep his options open.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In 1954-55, the NBA adopted its 24-second shot clock, and to Auerbach's liking, the game became much speedier. Yet the new tempo made the Celtics' weaknesses even more glaring. Boston had the greyhound guards in Cousy and Bill Sharman to run other teams off the floor, but they didn't have a powerful rebounding center who could pull the ball off the defensive boards and throw the outlet pass to start the fast break.[/FONT]

Similarity - The Suns have greyhounds in Nash, Marion, Barbosa, Bell, Banks.
But damn it, we just don't have that all important solid rebounder and defensive presence inside. (gimpy KT aside)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"I had to have somebody who could get me the ball," Auerbach recalled. "I'd been tipped off about Russell by my college coach, Bill Reinhart. Bill said Russell was the greatest defensive player and greatest rebounder he'd ever seen."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Russell struggled a bit the first few games, but his presence unshackled the rest of the team. The rookie center was such an awesome defensive rebounder that Heinsohn's and Loscutoff's roles shifted from battling on the boards. The forwards merely boxed out their men, then released quickly for the fast break while Russell was snaring the rebound and whipping the outlet pass to Cousy.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sharman and Cousy, meanwhile, were ecstatic with this development, after having spent the previous seasons frustrated by the team's lack of inside power. Plus Russell's intimidating presence at center allowed them to gamble on defense. If they made a mistake, more often than not, Russell's intimidating presence covered for them.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Auerbach, however, sensed these injustices and constantly raved about Russell and other unrecognized players to reporters.[/FONT]

Hope the Suns gain with Amare and KT as much as the Celts did with the addition of Russell.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Disclaimer: I just recalled that f'ed up comparison between Russell and Nash that Bill Walton kept pimping last season. That was plain stupid.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If there is a single post that compares this post to Walton's comparison...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"[/FONT]I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to compare this post to Walton's ! "

 

[George O'Brien]

Moe ran a motion offense that defied structure. It was constantly adjusting and adapting to the defense, and he had the perfect players to run. Everyone on that team could run and score, and the visiting team was usually sucking wind at the high altitude.

Some guy named Tex Winters wrote a book in the early sixties called the Triple Post Offense that influenced Moe. Then some flake for the Bulls truly bought into the system and ran the original Triple Post -- also known as the triangle -- in Chicago, taking the ball out of Michael Jordan's hands. What a jerk that guy was.

If memory serves, the Doug Moe motion offense and various triangle systems all were focused on the half court. With the right personnel, they were quite effective.

The issue about Russell is very relevant. Traditionally, great running always starts with great rebounding. That is the one thing that the Suns have to improve if they expect to go all the way.

 

[Gaddabout]

If memory serves, the Doug Moe motion offense and various triangle systems all were focused on the half court. With the right personnel, they were quite effective.

Moe's teams didn't race down the floor, but they ran all night passing and weaving. It was much more exhausting for defenses, because they had to work so hard. Moe's teams didn't stand around for anything. Like the Suns, you really had to guard everybody. Dan Issel and Alvan Adams had some classic matchups in the mid- to late 70s.

The triangle is more deliberate. It's a motion offense, but it has rigorous details about where each player should be, and uses terminology not found in any other offense. It works when the players buy in and learn it in all its complications. If not, it looks like a train wreck. It took about a season and a half for the Bulls to get it down, and that was with two All-Time 50 players.

 

[Mainstreet]

Moe's teams didn't race down the floor, but they ran all night passing and weaving. It was much more exhausting for defenses, because they had to work so hard. Moe's teams didn't stand around for anything. Like the Suns, you really had to guard everybody. Dan Issel and Alvan Adams had some classic matchups in the mid- to late 70s.

The triangle is more deliberate. It's a motion offense, but it has rigorous details about where each player should be, and uses terminology not found in any other offense. It works when the players buy in and learn it in all its complications. If not, it looks like a train wreck. It took about a season and a half for the Bulls to get it down, and that was with two All-Time 50 players.

The Suns may not run the triangle offense (or a triple post offense) in basketball, but Steve Nash is certainly in the mold of the quarterback-intensive triple option offense that used to frequent college football.

 

[George O'Brien]

The Suns may not run the triangle offense (or a triple post offense) in basketball, but Steve Nash is certainly in the mold of the quarterback-intensive triple option offense that used to frequent college football.

You don't actually see true triple option offenses in football very often because it takes so many skills for the QB for it to work. The same is true with Nash.