How many times will lightning strike?

[GuernseyCard]

When these players or coaches suddenly only have become good or great because they're on our team, I'm not buying it as a "reason."

If Drake is so good and just misused, why did he ultimately get traded for a 5th/6th round pick? Why weren't there tons of teams chasing Kingsbury out of the gate, or articles talking about how great KK was, but just had a bad go of it with with recruiting?

Especially given that there's been a full year in the NFL under him, and he still has a defense, with a DPOY candidate, that was 32nd.

Given your evidently intimate knowledge of all of the above and, no doubt, more; tell me how much time did Arians spend overseeing the "D" ?

 

[Jetstream Green]

Any time a player or coach is criticized, we unpack the excuses for them. I wish my job was this forgiving.

Kliff's offense is alright. It's not revolutionary, it's decent, but our defense is atrocious and he knows nothing about it. Great that he had an awesome offense in college, but it still didn't lead to wins. Kliff could have a top 10 offense in the NFL, and if the defense is still so bad that he can't win games, he's not going to have a job in the NFL. Winning is what matters, not moral victories.

This roster is so full of unknowns, and the winning teams in the NFL aren't. Every talk about success is "well if everything goes exactly right and this player plays much better than they ever have..."

It reminds me of how I used to talk about the team back in 2002/2003.

Yes, and in 2002/2003, I wanted us to be a good team so bad that I was sure Jake Plummer and David Boston were a dynamic offensive combo. That Josh McCown was a future star with all of the tools. That Jason McAddley had #1 potential as long as Sullivan just coached him up.

I learned a lesson over time. This board has a very short memory for how bad some of last year's games were, or the horrible choices Kingsbury made on the field. I understand recruiting was an issue at TT. It's been repeated ad nauseum. Just because recruiting is hard, doesn't make Kliff a good head coach. He's still completely hands-off with the defense, which is not what a good HC should be doing.

You have been spouting off on Murray and Kingsbury ad nauseam every chance you get... do not say block me then because you derail every thread and then I would not know what is going on lol

 

[Solar7]

Given your evidently intimate knowledge of all of the above and, no doubt, more; tell me how much time did Arians spend overseeing the "D" ?

Well, he sure as hell didn't need Steve Keim to go build him a coaching staff, and no quotes like the one where he said the defensive coaches kick him out of the room sometimes when he comes in with ideas.

Arians' defense also didn't crumble into nothingness when Bowles left. Was it dominant? Maybe not, but still very good. Just because he called plays doesn't mean he washed his hands of it.

You have been spouting off on Murray and Kingsbury ad nauseam every chance you get... do not say block me then because you derail every thread and then I would not know what is going on lol

I've barely said anything but good things about Kyler since the season ended. Yes, I still don't like Kingsbury, because he has never won anything, and people talk about him like he's some surefire top-of-the-league coach. Not sure what else you'd expect from this thread though, when my first line mentions negativity. Short of a couple of gifs or whatever, looks like some people didn't want to participate in anything negative, which is just fine. But that's what this thread is.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Yes, and in 2002/2003, I wanted us to be a good team so bad that I was sure Jake Plummer and David Boston were a dynamic offensive combo. That Josh McCown was a future star with all of the tools. That Jason McAddley had #1 potential as long as Sullivan just coached him up.

I learned a lesson over time. This board has a very short memory for how bad some of last year's games were, or the horrible choices Kingsbury made on the field. I understand recruiting was an issue at TT. It's been repeated ad nauseum. Just because recruiting is hard, doesn't make Kliff a good head coach. He's still completely hands-off with the defense, which is not what a good HC should be doing.

And Pete Carroll is hands off on his offense. For years if he didnt have Russell Wilson, that would be a bottom 5 or bottom 3 offense.

 

[JosiahLee]

Here’s my two cents, based on experience alone I think K1 & K2 will be better...Lamar Jackson’s growth from year 1 to year 2 was simply jaw-dropping (rBTW, this is a team that abandoned their traditional, even Super Bowl winning QB in favor of turbo athletic Jackson)...

But I’d like to take a minute to breakdown certain younger players on the roster and give my opinion on whether I think they will improve in 2020 (because despite your opinion, I don’t actually believe the majority on this board were rose-colored glasses - And I’ll prove it by listing some players that I don’t think make the leap in 2020)

Kyler Murray - He’s trending up. I think he enters year two with a ton of confidence and better leadership.

Isabella - I think he will be more productive (I know that isn’t saying a lot given his production in 2019, but if Byrd or Cooper leave in free agency I see his snap count increasing and him getting an opportunity to be the deep field threat)

Keesean Johnson - He isn’t a factor in 2020...Heck, I don’t even know if he’ll be on the roster after entering the doghouse once he fumbled in the SF game.

Hakeem Butler - I want to say he’ll be a valuable and contributing player...But there’s zero evidence to support this. Inconclusive.

Rodney Gunter - He’s not getting better. He is what he is...Maybe he’ll get a deal from another team this off season when he tests free agency. I could see him coming back again on another 1 year deal.

Zach Allen - Doubtful. My gut says he’ll be a bust of a 3rd round pick. He dealt with multiple injuries in year 1 leaving question marks about his bodies ability to hold up at this level.

Byron Murphy - I have no idea. If you put a gun to my head I’ll say he will improve simply because of the amount of reps he got as a rookie. He flashed at times, but was also inconsistent.

With all that said, does logic say this will be a playoff team? No. But do I think it’s possible with a strong free agency and draft, absolutely. My black and white prediction is that they will have more wins than the 2019 season.

 

[Krangodnzr]

When these players or coaches suddenly only have become good or great because they're on our team, I'm not buying it as a "reason."

If Drake is so good and just misused, why did he ultimately get traded for a 5th/6th round pick? Why weren't there tons of teams chasing Kingsbury out of the gate, or articles talking about how great KK was, but just had a bad go of it with with recruiting?

Especially given that there's been a full year in the NFL under him, and he still has a defense, with a DPOY candidate, that was 32nd.

Palmer got traded for a 6th round pick. I swear you create awful arguments sometimes.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Any time a player or coach is criticized, we unpack the excuses for them. I wish my job was this forgiving.

Kliff's offense is alright. It's not revolutionary, it's decent, but our defense is atrocious and he knows nothing about it. Great that he had an awesome offense in college, but it still didn't lead to wins. Kliff could have a top 10 offense in the NFL, and if the defense is still so bad that he can't win games, he's not going to have a job in the NFL. Winning is what matters, not moral victories.

This roster is so full of unknowns, and the winning teams in the NFL aren't. Every talk about success is "well if everything goes exactly right and this player plays much better than they ever have..."

It reminds me of how I used to talk about the team back in 2002/2003.

No one wants to go to Texas Tech. And that includes good coordinators because they have awful defensive talent. That's a school that has to make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

You are so worried about roster spots that are filled quite easily in the NFL. 3-4 DE. There are literally 40 guys out there that can play reasonably well. Hell just the other day @Chopper0080 assuaged my fears about finding an ILB. There are literally a dozen guys that would be a upgrades over Walker/Reddick.

The Cardinals have a near DPOY pass rusher, a hall of fame caliber CB, a competent LT, and a promising young QB. They literally have the four positions you build your team around! Do you know how often weve seen the Cardinals have those core positions filled?

I more concerned about Keim building a team that is constantly having to be rebuilt through free agency which means short Super Bowl windows.

And you're worried about dime a dozen positions.

 

[Solar7]

And Pete Carroll is hands off on his offense. For years if he didnt have Russell Wilson, that would be a bottom 5 or bottom 3 offense.

There's a difference between being hands off because you have coached alongside people you can trust and have a good handle on your staff, and never having sniffed an adequate defense at any coaching level.

Palmer got traded for a 6th round pick. I swear you create awful arguments sometimes.

Palmer being traded for a 6th had a ton of nuance to it, and you know it. He was squeezing his own way out of Oakland with his contract demands, went 4-12, Palmer hadn't played particularly well, and they were a team in need of a major rebuild. Not to mention, he was 33 and only had a few more years left in the tank. He wasn't a 25 year old with no apparent major injuries.

No one wants to go to Texas Tech. And that includes good coordinators because they have awful defensive talent. That's a school that has to make chicken salad out of chickenshit.

You are so worried about roster spots that are filled quite easily in the NFL. 3-4 DE. There are literally 40 guys out there that can play reasonably well. Hell just the other day @Chopper0080 assuaged my fears about finding an ILB. There are literally a dozen guys that would be a upgrades over Walker/Reddick.

The Cardinals have a near DPOY pass rusher, a hall of fame caliber CB, a competent LT, and a promising young QB. They literally have the four positions you build your team around! Do you know how often weve seen the Cardinals have those core positions filled?

I more concerned about Keim building a team that is constantly having to be rebuilt through free agency which means short Super Bowl windows.

And you're worried about dime a dozen positions.

We had those players last year and still went 5-11-1, with very unimpressive wins making up three of those. I'm not worried solely about the empty spaces across the team, although they're scary too. I don't think we can count on guys who are never was'ers to be good enough to overtake teams with fresh Super Bowl appearances and stronger rosters/proven coaching.

Edit: Yeah. I just saw your thing about Keim. Why have any faith in him to build a super bowl roster? We have been bad for four years and have next to nothing in young cheap talent.

 

[Krangodnzr]

There's a difference between being hands off because you have coached alongside people you can trust and have a good handle on your staff, and never having sniffed an adequate defense at any coaching level.


Palmer being traded for a 6th had a ton of nuance to it, and you know it. He was squeezing his own way out of Oakland with his contract demands, went 4-12, Palmer hadn't played particularly well, and they were a team in need of a major rebuild. Not to mention, he was 33 and only had a few more years left in the tank. He wasn't a 25 year old with no apparent major injuries.


We had those players last year and still went 5-11-1, with very unimpressive wins making up three of those. I'm not worried solely about the empty spaces across the team, although they're scary too. I don't think we can count on guys who are never was'ers to be good enough to overtake teams with fresh Super Bowl appearances and stronger rosters/proven coaching.

Yeah Pete Carroll trusted crap offensive coordinator Darrell Bevell for years. Dude was Steve Wilks of offensive coordinators. Not having a good defensive coordinator at Texas Tech is pretty freaking obvious why....good coaches that have any aspirations arent going to Lubbock, Texas.

I know the Dolphins were looking to get as many picks as possible. There are many instances of a team trading a player or letting them go and that player blossoming.

I can find other instances of players getting traded for peanuts and producing widely, but your argument is just so ridiculously bad and irrelevant that I dont think I'll waste the time.

 

[Solar7]

Yeah Pete Carroll trusted crap offensive coordinator Darrell Bevell for years. Dude was Steve Wilks of offensive coordinators. Not having a good defensive coordinator at Texas Tech is pretty freaking obvious why....good coaches that have any aspirations arent going to Lubbock, Texas.

I know the Dolphins were looking to get as many picks as possible. There are many instances of a team trading a player or letting them go and that player blossoming.

I can find other instances of players getting traded for peanuts and producing widely, but your argument is just so ridiculously bad and irrelevant that I dont think I'll waste the time.

Considering your argument is "our head coach and our running back are good for reasons they've never proven," I don't think you need to bother.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Considering your argument is "our head coach and our running back are good for reasons they've never proven," I don't think you need to bother.

LOL STRAWMAN.

 

[Solar7]

LOL STRAWMAN.

Suuuuure it is.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Well, he sure as hell didn't need Steve Keim to go build him a coaching staff, and no quotes like the one where he said the defensive coaches kick him out of the room sometimes when he comes in with ideas.

Arians' defense also didn't crumble into nothingness when Bowles left. Was it dominant? Maybe not, but still very good. Just because he called plays doesn't mean he washed his hands of it.


I've barely said anything but good things about Kyler since the season ended. Yes, I still don't like Kingsbury, because he has never won anything, and people talk about him like he's some surefire top-of-the-league coach. Not sure what else you'd expect from this thread though, when my first line mentions negativity. Short of a couple of gifs or whatever, looks like some people didn't want to participate in anything negative, which is just fine. But that's what this thread is.

KK makes a patently obvious joke about the defence and you take it literally because it fits into your narrative. And how you can somehow make him the scapegoat for a defensive performance by a depleted side festooned with rookies and backups is a bridge too far.

 

[cardncubfan]

Palmer got traded for a 6th round pick. I swear you create awful arguments sometimes.

What a terrible GM we have to trade a 6th rd pick for Palmer.

 

[slanidrac16]

Solar keeps going back four years when talking about Keim. The focus 4 years ago is so much different than last year and moving forward.

Keim was trying to keep the band together one more year in 2017. Big mistake. Signing Bradford big mistake.

Keim needs to hit this off season. But he is looking at it with a different philosophy. It’s rebuilding now and not trying to hold it together with bandaids.

I do not think we will see but maybe 1 splash free agency signing. The rest are going to be upgrades in a few others on defense. Most of us will be underwhelmed and disappointed but I think it’s the right thing.

One player ( i.e. Chris Jones) is not going to turn this defense around. But three 8m free agents will. We will see 1 or 2 prove it deals.

Let’s assume we add a DE ( Wolfe ? ) an ILB ( Kwiatkowski or Trevathan?) along with our own free agents we want back.

Drafting CeeDee instantly helps the offense and follow that up with an OLB/ Edge to compete and push Reddick. With the rest of our draft we could add to the Front 7 and OL but may have to use one of those picks for a Rb.

Will this guarantee a playoff spot? Of course not but I think it makes us significantly more competitive and on the right path.

 

[cardpa]

Those 2002/2003 had literally no talent dude.

Boldins rookie year he was easily the best player on the team.

Do you watch college football like at all? Recruiting is pretty much how you build a good team. Kingsburys biggest failing at Texas Tech was his inability to recruit. That's not an issue in the pros.

It wasn't really an inability to recruit as much as part of his job he didn't like doing so he slacked at it. He even admitted he hated the recruiting part of the job. If you hated the part of your job that was essential for your success why are you a collegiate head coach? It's no different in AZ, he doesn't really want to be bothered spending time with the defense so he pretty much leaves it to others when it's part of his job as head coach to have a vested interest in the defense. When did the description of head coach in the NFL suddenly become optional to only be concerned about half of the team?

 

[Garthshort]

One last swath of negativity to get it out of my system as we enter the first week of the offseason in earnest.

Following on a conversation in another thread, I find myself asking about the fanbase: Just how many times can we expect lightning to strike?

It seems like a dangerous but oft-repeated mantra here: "I believe he'll be better here." That applies for Kliff Kingsbury, Kenyan Drake, even in some degrees to Kyler Murray. This works from time to time, but Steve Keim has been setting a dangerous precedent in continuing to think he's smarter than everyone else in the room. I think we're a little blinded by our biases as fans, and really hoping for the best.

If we changed the names on the team to say, the Lions, and I told you back when we were at our peak in 2015 that the worst team in the league would attempt to fix everything by signing a losing college head coach who was just fired from his alma mater and got no other coaching offers, drafting the shortest QB in 1st round history who had only played one full season of college football #1 overall, and remedying the RB position by trading for and then paying an RB with 5 total 100 yard games in four years of play, you'd all have laughed. I'm sure it would have sounded something like "wow, sounds like the classic Lions to me."

I can be pervadingly negative, but it's because when I talk to my friends who know the NFL inside and out, including people who work in the industry, people who set the lines here in Vegas, and more, I get laughed at and asked "dude, what are your Cardinals doing?" My negative outlook and some of my hard-line stances here come from a lot of those conversations, because I feel like this place is wearing rose-colored glasses, hoping for a Cinderella story that probably isn't coming.

Now, 2020 is getting underway. Let's see what Keim has up his sleeve. So far he hasn't done anything I'm wildly against. I just want to see some savvy, traditional football moves. No more "well, no one's ever done this, and IF this guy does x, y, and z, we'll be great!" No more spending your draft capital replacing your entire draft from the year prior. No wasting of precious draft picks on hail mary overpaid players. Build the belly of the team, develop some young talent, create a sustainable winning team for the future.

All that said, go Cardinals, and let's hope for the best as things get started!

 

[GuernseyCard]

It wasn't really an inability to recruit as much as part of his job he didn't like doing so he slacked at it. He even admitted he hated the recruiting part of the job. If you hated the part of your job that was essential for your success why are you a collegiate head coach? It's no different in AZ, he doesn't really want to be bothered spending time with the defense so he pretty much leaves it to others when it's part of his job as head coach to have a vested interest in the defense. When did the description of head coach in the NFL suddenly become optional to only be concerned about half of the team?

And where can I find a story that indicates that he doesn't exercise overall supervision of the Defence and Special teams?

(there's a difference between recognizing that it's not his strength and expertise and not acting in his full supervisory role.)

 

[Krangodnzr]

It wasn't really an inability to recruit as much as part of his job he didn't like doing so he slacked at it. He even admitted he hated the recruiting part of the job. If you hated the part of your job that was essential for your success why are you a collegiate head coach? It's no different in AZ, he doesn't really want to be bothered spending time with the defense so he pretty much leaves it to others when it's part of his job as head coach to have a vested interest in the defense. When did the description of head coach in the NFL suddenly become optional to only be concerned about half of the team?

I dont want my offensive head coach screwing with the defense.

 

[GatorAZ]

What a terrible GM we have to trade a 6th rd pick for Palmer.

He was going to be released but ya I suppose...

 

[Solar7]

KK makes a patently obvious joke about the defence and you take it literally because it fits into your narrative. And how you can somehow make him the scapegoat for a defensive performance by a depleted side festooned with rookies and backups is a bridge too far.

Alright, however you want to see it then. I see an offensive coach way out of his scope, with very few of his own coaching connections to draw from. We have an offense that's 16th, and a defense that's 32nd. Sure, it's better than Wilks, but in no way something we should be dancing in the streets about.

This guy is supposed to light the league on fire, and he got us to middle of the pack. Just hard for me to see anything that says he's not just what he's always been. The only reason to think he's going to be better is mostly blind hope.

Solar keeps going back four years when talking about Keim. The focus 4 years ago is so much different than last year and moving forward.

I go back four years because we haven't had a winning season in four. He's the one constant. There's a couple of excuses along the way, but the abysmal state of our roster has no excuse.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Alright, however you want to see it then. I see an offensive coach way out of his scope, with very few of his own coaching connections to draw from. We have an offense that's 16th, and a defense that's 32nd. Sure, it's better than Wilks, but in no way something we should be dancing in the streets about.

This guy is supposed to light the league on fire, and he got us to middle of the pack. Just hard for me to see anything that says he's not just what he's always been. The only reason to think he's going to be better is mostly blind hope.


I go back four years because we haven't had a winning season in four. He's the one constant. There's a couple of excuses along the way, but the abysmal state of our roster has no excuse.

Blind hope?

Expecting that KK/KM connection will be more proficient is hardly the blind hope of a lottery win. Only the wilfully blind would ignore the progress in year one and see it as suggesting that the offence can further improve.

 

[Solar7]

Blind hope?

Expecting that KK/KM connection will be more proficient is hardly the blind hope of a lottery win. Only the wilfully blind would ignore the progress in year one and see it as suggestion that the offence can further improve.

KK/KM's offense alone can't win for us, but I respect your position.

 

[GuernseyCard]

KK/KM's offense alone can't win for us, but I respect your position.

That's a given.

It may be easier to add 50+ points than shaving same from the Defence.

 

[slanidrac16]

Alright, however you want to see it then. I see an offensive coach way out of his scope, with very few of his own coaching connections to draw from. We have an offense that's 16th, and a defense that's 32nd. Sure, it's better than Wilks, but in no way something we should be dancing in the streets about.

This guy is supposed to light the league on fire, and he got us to middle of the pack. Just hard for me to see anything that says he's not just what he's always been. The only reason to think he's going to be better is mostly blind hope.


I go back four years because we haven't had a winning season in four. He's the one constant. There's a couple of excuses along the way, but the abysmal state of our roster has no excuse.

How can on one hand you question Kingsbury’s accomplishments and on the other hand tell everybody how we have no talent? Bottom line is you can only put so much lipstick on a pig. With what he had to work with, installing and entire new offense and a rookie qb you fail to give credit apparently because we didn’t have a top 5 offense.