I Love my DTV DVR - NOT

[Sandan]

Because in a movie theater the shows goes on regardless of if I am there.

Really I just don't see any connection to the examples you are citing, they are all utterly different. In all cases you have compared this too I would either be retaining a physical copy of something and hence preventing them from re-renting it or I am sitting in a seat at a cinema. In the case of a DVR, I have an independent copy of the media. How long I keep it in no way impacts the seller/renter's abilty to sell or rent another copy or showing.

And no I wasn't questioning your intelligence, it just seems that you may not have a grasp of what the movie studios are planning on. You seem to think everything they do is just hunky dory. Thats says nothing about your intelligence, just maybe a little too trusting.

Give me one logical reason why I shouldn't be able to take a backup of DVD I own. It seems that New Zealand you may now rip DVDs providing the purpose is legal, ie fair use for yourself. While here in the US the congress is i the pocket of the media companies and are determined to chip aways at our Fair Use rights. Make no mistake they are working on taking away rights you currently have.

 

[Sandan]

Actually I have never had PPV without a DVR.

So they have taken something away, I think you could and I expect somebody will make the case that this is a violation of Fair use.

Unfortunately congress is in bed with the studios and yes I expect more of this to come from HBO, NFL etc. I have already heard that this is palnned for regular broadcast TV shows.

Fundamentally they hate DVRs and will try to marginalize them if at all possible. They hate time shifting and ad skipping. The channels want to get back to controlling what you watch and when you watch it.

Our only protection fro this is the ballot box, without help from congress expect DVRs as you know them now to become a thing of the part.

They would much prefer for you to have Video on Demand, that way you can watch any show when you want to .. You just have to pay for it every time

 

[Covert Rain]

Because in a movie theater the shows goes on regardless of if I am there.

Really I just don't see any connection to the examples you are citing, they are all utterly different. In all cases you have compared this too I would either be retaining a physical copy of something and hence preventing them from re-renting it or I am sitting in a seat at a cinema. In the case of a DVR, I have an independent copy of the media. How long I keep it in no way impacts the seller/renter's abilty to sell or rent another copy or showing.

And no I wasn't questioning your intelligence, it just seems that you may not have a grasp of what the movie studios are planning on. You seem to think everything they do is just hunky dory. Thats says nothing about your intelligence, just maybe a little too trusting.

Give me one logical reason why I shouldn't be able to take a backup of DVD I own. It seems that New Zealand you may now rip DVDs providing the purpose is legal, ie fair use for yourself. While here in the US the congress is i the pocket of the media companies and are determined to chip aways at our Fair Use rights. Make no mistake they are working on taking away rights you currently have.

 

[Ryanwb]

Because in a movie theater the shows goes on regardless of if I am there.

Well the PPV movie is going to play whether you order it or not

Really I just don't see any connection to the examples you are citing, they are all utterly different. In all cases you have compared this too I would either be retaining a physical copy of something and hence preventing them from re-renting it or I am sitting in a seat at a cinema. In the case of a DVR, I have an independent copy of the media. How long I keep it in no way impacts the seller/renter's abilty to sell or rent another copy or showing.

No, you have a LICENSED copy of the media, and that licesnse has a fair use granted. I am not following your mentioning of renting DVD's, it was mentioned yesterday but has not been mentioned in today's discussion

Give me one logical reason why I shouldn't be able to take a backup of DVD I own.

I never said that you couldn't, but a $3.99 PPV does not carry the same license that a purchased $19.99 DVD does.

It seems that New Zealand you may now rip DVDs providing the purpose is legal, ie fair use for yourself. While here in the US the congress is i the pocket of the media companies and are determined to chip aways at our Fair Use rights. Make no mistake they are working on taking away rights you currently have.

I used to work at a software firm and as I understand it, you can (hopefully still) keep a backup of any software you legally own. If this is not the case for a DVD, then I have a problem with that

There seems to be a disconnect here. You appear to want to use proprietary media any way you seem fit. As a former programmer I want to protect my intellectual rights. You may see it as money grubbing, but with piracy as rampant as it is, there needs to be a layer of protection for the people that produce this media, can you not agree?

I don't understand the reasoning behind having the same rights to a $3.99 PPV movie and a $19.99 DVD??? Does this make any sense what-so-ever?

I don't understand what "rights" are being chipped away? Can you explain that? As far as I am concerned, the way PPV was prior to this change in policy was strictly a loop hole.

 

[Linderbee]

I used to work at a software firm and as I understand it, you can (hopefully still) keep a backup of any software you legally own. If this is not the case for a DVD, then I have a problem with that

Along the same lines, I heard recently that you are not allowed to rip a cd to your computer. I have major issue with that. They aren't sure how they're going to enforce it, but it's in violation. I think they're going a little crazy with the protection stuff. If I buy the cd, I should be able to rip it to my computer to get it onto my zune.

 

[Ryanwb]

Along the same lines, I heard recently that you are not allowed to rip a cd to your computer. I have major issue with that. They aren't sure how they're going to enforce it, but it's in violation. I think they're going a little crazy with the protection stuff. If I buy the cd, I should be able to rip it to my computer to get it onto my zune.

This is something I can agree with, the purchase of a CD or even an individual song should be such that you can use it anyway you see fit as long as it is not infriging on copyright laws or you are not using it for personal profit

 

[Linderbee]

 

[Covert Rain]

I think some have gotten off the beaten path here. This debate is not about the number of times you can watch a movie or the legality of ripping it or a stance against losing your rights. This is not about comparing rights between buying a DVD versus renting the same movie via PPV. This is about the Studio imposing reasonable protection of their content to protect DVD sales without inconveniencing your customer. Last time I checked this business was still about the consumer.

They just didn't think it through very well. We can watch it as many time as we want...in 24 hours. They could have just as easily have said...you must delete it within 24 hours of viewing it. Does that not still accomplish the same thing?

I view this much in the same way as when I get a Netflix movie. I rent a movie and should be able to watch it at my leisure. When I am done I return it. In DTV case, once I am done they "take" it. Not much of a difference here. I don't see how charging me basically the same rate but delivering the media digitally somehow becomes a threat because I didn't watch it within 24 hours of my order. Now that doesn't make sense.

So I am sure the movie studios probably requested some type of control. I am curious if this solution was the only one DTV could think of or if this truly is 100% brain child of the studios.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Crap like this is why I have built a DVD collection, and will continue to build upon it.

I'll leave this bickering to you guys.

 

[Sandan]

There seems to be a disconnect here. You appear to want to use proprietary media any way you seem fit. As a former programmer I want to protect my intellectual rights. You may see it as money grubbing, but with piracy as rampant as it is, there needs to be a layer of protection for the people that produce this media, can you not agree?

You are trivializing my comments, its clear we do have a disconnect as you are not getting what I am saying. Maybe I'm not explaining myself clearly enough. As far as you go there is some truth to what you say but you need to go a little further.

I did not say this. I did say that my being allowed to watch the move at my leisure in no way infringes their IP rights. I paid to watch it, why should they care if I take 3 days do to it.

Somehow you are associating this with piracy ? I don't see it and I've been developing software for 30 years. What I am trying to explain to you is something you seem to be missing.

DRM as the move and music industry sees it really isn't about priacy protection. Sure they make a lot of fuss about that but that is just the public smokescreen.

What I am trying to explain to you is that their real agenda is very different. Right now [though these have been eroded already] you have certain rights under what is called Fair Use. Not being a lawyer I won't attempt to detail them but it includes things like making a backup, selling a CD you legally bought [1st owner I think it is called]. Ripping a CD onto your PC to listen to with Winamp etc and simialr things.

As one poster has pointed out the music industry is trying to to make the case that ripping a CD for LEGAL purposes is illegal, the movie industry has already succeeded with that [so yes making a backup of a DVD IS ILLEGAL]

The reason they are doing this has little to do with piracy [which you are concerned about as am I]. What it is all about is taking those 'Fair Use' rights you have [in some cases had] and making you pay for something similar in the future.

The current objective is Video on Demand. Google Microsoft's comments on that. They and the industry want to push us away from owning DVDs, they would prefer we use VoD for just about everything this has several benefits.

They can insert adverts into everything, even feature movies. However the most insidious part is that they can charge you every time you watch ANYTHING. This is the game plan.

By using DRM technology and getting laws changed they can prevent you making copies, backups or recordings of anything hence you have to go to a VoD service then thy get to charge you every time.

This is what DRM is about not stopping piracy. This is the part you don't seem to get. I agree stopping piracy is important, I've never downloaded a bootleg MP3 in my life but DRM is about taking rights you currently have and charging you to exercise them.

I suggest you do some research on the chipping away of your Fair Use rights before dismissing my comments. Asrtehnica is an excellent techie site with about the best forums for tech help anywhere but they also occasionally run articles on this topic.

 

[Sandan]

This is something I can agree with, the purchase of a CD or even an individual song should be such that you can use it anyway you see fit as long as it is not infriging on copyright laws or you are not using it for personal profit

There goes one of your Fair Use rights

 

[Sandan]

Crap like this is why I have built a DVD collection, and will continue to build upon it.

I'll leave this bickering to you guys.

Its called attempted education and I do the same but expansion is on hold until I can afford BR system

 

[Ryanwb]

On second thought, I guess I will just ask that we agree to disagree. I don't want to see oppressive rules placed on media anymore than anyone else.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

Along the same lines, I heard recently that you are not allowed to rip a cd to your computer. I have major issue with that. They aren't sure how they're going to enforce it, but it's in violation. I think they're going a little crazy with the protection stuff. If I buy the cd, I should be able to rip it to my computer to get it onto my zune.

There's been some confusion floating around the internet on this. The RIAA has claimed in a recent lawsuit not that it is illegal for someone to rip their own cd onto their pc, but that it is illegal to place those ripped songs within the "area" of a P2P program (even if nobody has downloaded them off of you). As far as I know, no court judgment had been passed on that particular statement. This is still a little murky, but it seems that it is perfectly legal for a consumer to create a back up, as long as they can prove ownership of the original. The RIAA is still a ridiculous organization that is making their industry less and less relevant by the day.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

There's been some confusion floating around the internet on this. The RIAA has claimed in a recent lawsuit not that it is illegal for someone to rip their own cd onto their pc, but that it is illegal to place those ripped songs within the "area" of a P2P program (even if nobody has downloaded them off of you). As far as I know, no court judgment had been passed on that particular statement. This is still a little murky, but it seems that it is perfectly legal for a consumer to create a back up, as long as they can prove ownership of the original. The RIAA is still a ridiculous organization that is making their industry less and less relevant by the day.

It is NOT illegal to rip your own CD. It is illegal to share them. The RIAA is correct.

It is NOT illegal to download music from the internet. It IS illegal to share the music that you do download so everyone else can download it on the internet.

It IS illegal to download movies off of the internet.

After working for Cox, I had the "privilege" of sitting in some DMCA (digital media copyright act) meetings.

 

[Sandan]

It is NOT illegal to rip your own CD. It is illegal to share them. The RIAA is correct.

Absolutely correct but ....

The RIAA and their parent companies are trying to get it made ripping music CDs for your own use, made illegal.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

It is NOT illegal to rip your own CD. It is illegal to share them. The RIAA is correct.

It is NOT illegal to download music from the internet. It IS illegal to share the music that you do download so everyone else can download it on the internet.

It IS illegal to download movies off of the internet.

After working for Cox, I had the "privilege" of sitting in some DMCA (digital media copyright act) meetings.

Not quite sure why you are quoting me as I think we're saying the same thing on this, but yeah.

Absolutely correct but ....

The RIAA and their parent companies are trying to get it made ripping music CDs for your own use, made illegal.

If we're referring to the lawsuit against the Arizona man from last December, then no, that isn't what the RIAA was claiming. Pretty much every blog on the internet had it printed that the RIAA was saying that ripping your own CDs is illegal, but that isn't what the case was about. The Washington Post even put a retraction on their story, as the RIAA was claiming that the illegal act was the man putting his ripped music into a shared folder.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/28/AR2007122800693.html

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Not quite sure why you are quoting me as I think we're saying the same thing on this, but yeah.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/28/AR2007122800693.html

Just because you were talking about it.....thats all.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

Just because you were talking about it.....thats all.

Gotcha

 

[Sandan]

Ok, I hadn't seen that.

I agree with their stance that illegal downloading should be stopped.

Their tactics have so turned me off I don't give a damn anymore and frankly I wouldn't much past them at all.

 

[Red Hawk]

I download movies through XBOX live.

They give you 14 days from purchase or 24 hours after you play it.

 

[Pariah]

My DTV HD DVR recently erased everything in my queue. I think it did it because it became full (a mistake on my part--I was recording both days of the draft...usually I keep it at about 40% free).

That doesn't seem right, but maybe there's a setting that dictated that course of action? Anyway, I lost all the smallvilles I hadn't seen so now I'll have to wait till the DVD comes out to see the second half of the season.

 

[Sandan]

Don't have an Xbox and I expect that time line will be reduced over time

 

[KloD]

Don't you have OnDemand in Az? I've never heard of recording a PPV? I didn't even know they still had show times for PPV..

 

[Darth Llama]

Don't you have OnDemand in Az?

Not really.

It's been "Coming Soon" for the last 6 Months now, just like all those HD channels Cox is supposedly adding.