I thought you guys would get a kick out of this...

[KloD]

I don't disagree, but if Raja was on another team, you would all hate him too.

If he were on yours, you'd love him.

The Raja hate from the Lakers is really funny. Do you folks honestly believe that Kobe had no part in this? It was the Lakers who brought the dirty play into that series, very clear examples prior to Raja showing Kobe the floor. Yet, the Laker fans are still complaining...its been so long now I forgot the Lakers were even in the playoffs. I know you are different, but several of your fellow fans cry too much.

 

[gdiddy]

The key to remember for all basketball fans is that it's just a game. I am so amazed by the number of people that take this game so seriously as if it were a matter of life or death.

Please people, the players, win or lose, will still go home millionaires.

 

[ryanshaug]

...

Reading those comments made me laugh, its funny to see how the other side is seeing us...I would actually have a lot of the same things to say about the Lakers...whining, etc...I guess its just whatever side of the fence you are on.

On our side of the fence, Raja is a hero and our heart...

 

[LakeShowMan]

If he were on yours, you'd love him.

The Raja hate from the Lakers is really funny. Do you folks honestly believe that Kobe had no part in this? It was the Lakers who brought the dirty play into that series, very clear examples prior to Raja showing Kobe the floor. Yet, the Laker fans are still complaining...its been so long now I forgot the Lakers were even in the playoffs. I know you are different, but several of your fellow fans cry too much.

All teams have fans that cry too much, it is the nature of the beast. After game 4 in here their will people saying that the NBA was trying to screw the Suns out of the playoffs. It's just the way it is.

 

[boisesuns]

Don't forget about the Memphis Grizzlies, they got swept so fast by Dallas that I almost forgot they were even in the playoffs.

It's really funny that you say that. The Gizzlies spend so much money every year on all this merchandise that says "Play On". They put it on buses, billboards, the make yard signs, t-shirts, and all sorts of stuff. Then they last for 4 games in the playoffs EVERY YEAR.

They sould start the "4 and Out" campaign instead.

I have all these "Play ON 05" Towels from the last year when the Suns swept them!

 

[nowagimp]

Vlade I will give you, but Raja is a much bigger flopper then D-Fish. Not even close.

Raja is a great "flopper" like Nocioni, jared Collins, and even Ben Wallace was top 5-6 in the NBA. I'm not sure I would like to call ben an "unmanly flopper". If the NBA was only force on force(no flopping) you'd end up with the WWFNBA, the players would all be huge and unskilled like the ROCK. When an offensive and defensive player make physical contact either it will be strength on strength or one of them will pull the contact to destabilize their man or draw a foul. Its very tricky as if the defender leaves himself wide open if he fails to destabilize or draw a foul. A defender who "plants" his feet to absorb impact becomes slow against a finesse move. Also, banging down low is used by offensive players to destabilize the defender so he cant block the shot. Just like a boxer feigns a punch to draw his opponent off, a player can feigh a bump or penetration move. I say that "flopping" is as much a part of the game as feigning is in boxing, otherwise its a mindless exercise in sumo wrestling. The art to playing against a flopper is not to over extend your energy, you must feel the opposing energy and react accordingly. If the opponent pulls his energy and you push hard, you knock him over. Players must be smart and sensitive enough to feel the energy and counter the move of the opponent.

My problem with the NBA and offensive fouls is that an increasing amount of lattitude is given to the defender to "run in front" of the offensive player. It seems that the requirement that the defender get his feet set and somewhat squared has disappeared. The NBA should wake up a bit on that and punish injury risking fouls(on airborne players) more to keep the game fast and high flying. Imagine if in the Bulls era Jordan had guys running in front of him all the time.

 

[LakeShowMan]

My problem with the NBA and offensive fouls is that an increasing amount of lattitude is given to the defender to "run in front" of the offensive player. It seems that the requirement that the defender get his feet set and somewhat squared has disappeared. The NBA should wake up a bit on that and punish injury risking fouls(on airborne players) more to keep the game fast and high flying. Imagine if in the Bulls era Jordan had guys running in front of him all the time.

I agree with this part completely. It has become a defensive tactic to run underneath someone, which IMO isn't what taking a charge should be about. This has definitly come into vogue in the last few years and irratates me to no end. Taking a charge should be about a defender that has established position, and is dislodged or run over (while keeping that position) by the offensive player. It shouldn't be about trying to run to a spot on a court, and undercutting a guy with your arms up in the air. This, and the rediculous amounts of moving screens in the NBA are my two biggest pet peeves in todays NBA.

As far as Raja being a great flopper, we'll have to agree to disagree. I grant you that he plays with good position. However, many times I have seen him clutch and grab, only to fall down like he got kicked in the chest by a mule, when the offensive player tries to free himself. Also, the supposed elbow to the face that triggered the clothesline, CLEARLY never even came close to hitting him in the face. Raja is a great defender, but his flopping is out of control. There is no way anyone will be able to convince me otherwise from what I have seen from my own eyes.

 

[nowagimp]

I agree with this part completely. It has become a defensive tactic to run underneath someone, which IMO isn't what taking a charge should be about. This has definitly come into vogue in the last few years and irratates me to no end. Taking a charge should be about a defender that has established position, and is dislodged or run over (while keeping that position) by the offensive player. It shouldn't be about trying to run to a spot on a court, and undercutting a guy with your arms up in the air. This, and the rediculous amounts of moving screens in the NBA are my two biggest pet peeves in todays NBA.

As far as Raja being a great flopper, we'll have to agree to disagree. I grant you that he plays with good position. However, many times I have seen him clutch and grab, only to fall down like he got kicked in the chest by a mule, when the offensive player tries to free himself. Also, the supposed elbow to the face that triggered the clothesline, CLEARLY never even came close to hitting him in the face. Raja is a great defender, but his flopping is out of control. There is no way anyone will be able to convince me otherwise from what I have seen from my own eyes.

I did not like the Raja flagrant, but on this site there was a movie that showed Kobe actually moving away from the ball to throw the elbow towards Raja's head as the pass to kobe was made. Kobe also elbowed Raja on two other occasions this season that I saw slow motion replays of. Its(the elbow) probably a response to being grabbed, but its rather a severe response that is not penalized. An elbow is a very powerful force(greater than a fist) if thrown correctly, as in the Martial arts. That said, I dont believe that Kobe knows how to do this, its obvious to me by the way he moves that he's not a trained fighter. Still, I think that if I was playing somebody who did this to me, and I thought it was intentional, I'd probably do worse than Raja did to kobe. That was a pretty bad clothesline, but preferable to the clothesline that Walton laid on TT, who was airborne. Head injuries are alot worse when falling from high up, just ask Joe Johnson. And remember the Lakers are the ones who upped the ante on flagrants before the Raja foul with Kwame and Waltons behavior.

 

[LakeShowMan]

I did not like the Raja flagrant, but on this site there was a movie that showed Kobe actually moving away from the ball to throw the elbow towards Raja's head as the pass to kobe was made. Kobe also elbowed Raja on two other occasions this season that I saw slow motion replays of. Its(the elbow) probably a response to being grabbed, but its rather a severe response that is not penalized. An elbow is a very powerful force(greater than a fist) if thrown correctly, as in the Martial arts. That said, I dont believe that Kobe knows how to do this, its obvious to me by the way he moves that he's not a trained fighter. Still, I think that if I was playing somebody who did this to me, and I thought it was intentional, I'd probably do worse than Raja did to kobe. That was a pretty bad clothesline, but preferable to the clothesline that Walton laid on TT, who was airborne. Head injuries are alot worse when falling from high up, just ask Joe Johnson. And remember the Lakers are the ones who upped the ante on flagrants before the Raja foul with Kwame and Waltons behavior.

I don't think there is any place in basketball for purposely trying to hurt someone, period.

 

[myrondizzo]

Also, the supposed elbow to the face that triggered the clothesline, CLEARLY never even came close to hitting him in the face.

that is true if you watch the choppy espn highlight but in high def and in true slow motion you can not only see the contact but also the skin around the contact bulge.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

that is true if you watch the choppy espn highlight but in high def and in true slow motion you can not only see the contact but also the skin around the contact bulge.

Man, high definition sounds awesome!

 

[LakeShowMan]

that is true if you watch the choppy espn highlight but in high def and in true slow motion you can not only see the contact but also the skin around the contact bulge.

I have a 42' HD plasma televison (Phillips), with HD Tivo, I watched the cleanest angle at least 25 times and probably another 15 times in slow motion (not to mention all of the different replays shown). He hit him in the shoulder, and never touched him in the face. I am about as objective as a die-hard fan can be, I am sure most regular posters in here will agree with that. However, I can say with no doubt in my mind that he didn't hit him in the face on that play.

Now, was there alot of back and forth in that game and all of the previous games in that series? Yes. It was a physical match up between the two, and both of them were getting away with WAY to much josseling and contact, which eventually peaked with the incident in game 5.

 

[SunsTzu]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=72276&highlight=elbow

6th post down.

 

[LakeShowMan]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=72276&highlight=elbow

6th post down.

There is a better angle of that from the side, it showed on HD TV and he doesn't hit him the face. I understand that different teams fans see everything differently. With that said, I have the clearest possible video that I can have (DIRECTV HD, with an HD Reciever, on an awesome Phillips Plasma HD TV) and I watched a MUCH clearer replay (at a MUCH better angle) many times and saw space between Kobes elbow and Raja's face.

I don't know how else I can say this, but just like most things in an opposing sports team arguement, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[nowagimp]

I don't think there is any place in basketball for purposely trying to hurt someone, period.

On this I can totally agree, but I dont have much faith in the NBA to make that happen soon. Seriously, these playoffs have had pullers and punchers of nuts, clotheslines, forearms, elbows, bodyblocks, submarine specials(one of the worst for the game in my opinion, and almost never punished), you name it. The league is WAY far from really punishing players who purposely try to hurt each other.

By the way, Lakeshowman you have alot more class, and true appreciation for the game than most suns fans and any nonsuns fans who visit this board.

 

[LakeShowMan]

On this I can totally agree, but I dont have much faith in the NBA to make that happen soon. Seriously, these playoffs have had pullers and punchers of nuts, clotheslines, forearms, elbows, bodyblocks, submarine specials(one of the worst for the game in my opinion, and almost never punished), you name it. The league is WAY far from really punishing players who purposely try to hurt each other.

By the way, Lakeshowman you have alot more class, and true appreciation for the game than most suns fans and any nonsuns fans who visit this board.

Appreciate the compliment, nowagimp. I have absolutely loved basketball my entire life and it is almost a religion in my family.

I will also say that, although you and I have not always seen exactly eye-to-eye on some things, you have always argued the point and never at the person, which is something I really respect. Also, I think this is one of the best boards around as far as quality basketball discussion (although the Lakers-Suns series got a little crazy). Which is why I come back so often, even though it is another teams board.