I want to believe in Vance, but this is tough to overlook.

[BritCard]

And this is why Vance will never have a great defense. Great defenses win with pressure. Not just pressure on the passer but pressure to execute because they make the routine plays, difficult. Look at the Seattle LOB defense. They made slants and outs tough. They did not concede third and long plays allowing teams to get 80% of the yards back. They gave you the swing route but then closed so fast you might pick up 2. Vance lets teams get comfortable, gain confidence, and feel less pressure throughout a game.

His defensive style reminds me of Patrick Peterson's play style. Neither play to shut you down, they play to keep you contained and then try to pounce when you make a mistake or force something. They both count on you beating yourself.

Yes, but (and I can't believe I'm defending Vance) he has to work with what he has right? I think we have seen a few different defensive styles from Vance this year depending on the personnel he has available and that he is still learning and improving. One of the reasons I didn't want him as DC was because he only had 1 year as a DC prior to Denver. I didn't think he was experienced enough to be the defensive guru across from Kliff.

But despite my misgivings you can see he is adapting and learning. I liked what he did with the 0-6-5 this year, that was innovative. He cooked up some good pass rush schemes with Gardeck, Reddick and Golden on the field at the same time.

And yes, there are some things that are infuriating sometimes. I think we went 4 or 5 games in a row at the back end of the season where we gave up a 3rd and 15+.

But overall it has been a massive improvement, you can see that with your eyes and in the statistics.

When you factor in CJ missed most the season (you can argue he missed the 4 games he played), Philips missed most of the season. Allen, Fotu, Lawrence and missed chunks. Some of those guys all at the same time. Jalen Thompson missed most of the season. Budda missed a couple of games.

One thing I've noticed for sure if that his scheme works better with faster players. Reddick, Gardeck, Simmons even Vallejo look better in there that Jones, Hicks, Golden.

If I'm Keim I'm focusing on adding speed to the front 7 in the off season. Which may well mean trading CJ.

 

[Chopper0080]

Yes, but (and I can't believe I'm defending Vance) he has to work with what he has right? I think we have seen a few different defensive styles from Vance this year depending on the personnel he has available and that he is still learning and improving. One of the reasons I didn't want him as DC was because he only had 1 year as a DC prior to Denver. I didn't think he was experienced enough to be the defensive guru across from Kliff.

But despite my misgivings you can see he is adapting and learning. I liked what he did with the 0-6-5 this year, that was innovative. He cooked up some good pass rush schemes with Gardeck, Reddick and Golden on the field at the same time.

And yes, there are some things that are infuriating sometimes. I think we went 4 or 5 games in a row at the back end of the season where we gave up a 3rd and 15+.

But overall it has been a massive improvement, you can see that with your eyes and in the statistics.

When you factor in CJ missed most the season (you can argue he missed the 4 games he played), Philips missed most of the season. Allen, Fotu, Lawrence and missed chunks. Some of those guys all at the same time. Jalen Thompson missed most of the season. Budda missed a couple of games.

One thing I've noticed for sure if that his scheme works better with faster players. Reddick, Gardeck, Simmons even Vallejo look better in there that Jones, Hicks, Golden.

If I'm Keim I'm focusing on adding speed to the front 7 in the off season. Which may well mean trading CJ.

Coaching not to lose is very different than coaching to win.

My point was that his scheme is designed to be soft. That is why we may see good numbers over the course of the year but will never have a great defense and will continue to have instances where bad or inexperienced QBs have their best game against us. Vance just does not put pressure on other teams because he wants to avoid giving up the big play over everything else.

 

[Chopper0080]

AZ vs Seattle - Defence 2020

AZ: Yds per game: 353 (13)
SE: Yds per game: 380 (22)
AZ: rush: 125 (22)
SE: rush: 96 (5)
AZ: pass: 226 (10)
SE: pass: 285 (31)
AZ: QBR: 91.5 (15)
SE: QBR: 90.2 (11)
AZ: sacks: 48 (4)
SE: sacks: 46 (7)
AZ: 3rd down: 39.6 (12)
SE: 3rd down: 47.1 (27)
AZ: Pts per game: 22.9 (12)
SE: Pts per game: 23.2 (15)

You recognize I was referencing the Seattle defense from years past, correct? I was not comparing the defenses this year.

 

[football karma]

one thing i think was missing from the Cards D this year was a true middle of the field free safety

we thought that was going to be Jalen Thompson, but I think he played less than 2 full games.

You want Budda close to the LOS -- so that meant Chris Banjo.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Coaching not to lose is very different than coaching to win.

My point was that his scheme is designed to be soft. That is why we may see good numbers over the course of the year but will never have a great defense and will continue to have instances where bad or inexperienced QBs have their best game against us. Vance just does not put pressure on other teams because he wants to avoid giving up the big play over everything else.

+1

 

[The6]

I mean to have a guy never play in the NFL run like he did is inexcusable. Who knows maybe it's the personnel

 

[DVontel]

Yes, but (and I can't believe I'm defending Vance) he has to work with what he has right? I think we have seen a few different defensive styles from Vance this year depending on the personnel he has available and that he is still learning and improving. One of the reasons I didn't want him as DC was because he only had 1 year as a DC prior to Denver. I didn't think he was experienced enough to be the defensive guru across from Kliff.

But despite my misgivings you can see he is adapting and learning. I liked what he did with the 0-6-5 this year, that was innovative. He cooked up some good pass rush schemes with Gardeck, Reddick and Golden on the field at the same time.

And yes, there are some things that are infuriating sometimes. I think we went 4 or 5 games in a row at the back end of the season where we gave up a 3rd and 15+.

But overall it has been a massive improvement, you can see that with your eyes and in the statistics.

When you factor in CJ missed most the season (you can argue he missed the 4 games he played), Philips missed most of the season. Allen, Fotu, Lawrence and missed chunks. Some of those guys all at the same time. Jalen Thompson missed most of the season. Budda missed a couple of games.

One thing I've noticed for sure if that his scheme works better with faster players. Reddick, Gardeck, Simmons even Vallejo look better in there that Jones, Hicks, Golden.

If I'm Keim I'm focusing on adding speed to the front 7 in the off season. Which may well mean trading CJ.

Also gotta factor amount of bum or rookie QBs the defense went against. It’s one thing if a Matt Ryan or Ryan Tannehill kills us. That’s fine. But a rookie Tua(where his only standout game was against us), Jalen Hurts, & Teddy Bridgewater do it? Jared Goff having a lousy year, but his best game of the season happening against no one other than?.......Us.

 

[GuernseyCard]

You recognize I was referencing the Seattle defense from years past, correct? I was not comparing the defenses this year.

Yes. Just thought I'd take a look and compare this past season.

 

[football karma]

Also gotta factor amount of bum or rookie QBs the defense went against. It’s one thing if a Matt Ryan or Ryan Tannehill kills us. That’s fine. But a rookie Tua(where his only standout game was against us), Jalen Hurts, & Teddy Bridgewater do it? Jared Goff having a lousy year, but his best game of the season happening against no one other than?.......Us.

that is an element that is confounding

it goes back to last year as well -- Kyle Allen looked like a Hall of Famer against the Cards

 

[Shaggy]

To be honest, yes Vance has his issues but the reason the team didnt make the playoffs is simple, the offense. They were hot in the first half of the season and then dropped off the face of the earth the second half.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

SF with a backup scored 20 pts and the RAMS 9 against our "D". Blame those losses on our offence.

VJ had to contend with the loss of C. Jones and they still generated 48 sacks (4th). He adjusted as best he could to the decimation of his "D" line and other week-to-week unavailabilities. Are there shortcomings? Of course, but there is a year-over-year improvement and the chances of him not being at the helm of the "D" next season are slim and none - IMO.

2020 vs 2019 (Defence)

2020: Yds per game: 353 (13)
2019: Yds per game: 402 (32)
2020: rush: 125 (22)
2019: rush: 120 (23)
2020: pass: 226 (10)
2019: pass: 281 (31)
2020: QBR: 91.5 (15)
2019: QBR: 109.9 (32)
2020: sacks: 48 (4)
2019: sacks: 40 (18)
2020: 3rd down: 39.6 (12)
2019: 3rd down: 46.7 (30)
2020: Pts per game: 22.9 (12)
2019: Pts per game: 27.6 (28)

The Rams hung 38 on the Vaunted VJ defense while running the same play over & over when they were at full strength. SF used a 3rd string RB & torched his defense for almost 200 yards. He's not a good DC. He's had some moments here & there & had to work with little at times but overall, not good imo. Looks like we're gonna be stuck with him again in 2021 so I'm all for him proving me wrong.

 

[cardpa]

SF with a backup scored 20 pts and the RAMS 9 against our "D". Blame those losses on our offence.

VJ had to contend with the loss of C. Jones and they still generated 48 sacks (4th). He adjusted as best he could to the decimation of his "D" line and other week-to-week unavailabilities. Are there shortcomings? Of course, but there is a year-over-year improvement and the chances of him not being at the helm of the "D" next season are slim and none - IMO.

2020 vs 2019 (Defence)

2020: Yds per game: 353 (13)
2019: Yds per game: 402 (32)
2020: rush: 125 (22)
2019: rush: 120 (23)
2020: pass: 226 (10)
2019: pass: 281 (31)
2020: QBR: 91.5 (15)
2019: QBR: 109.9 (32)
2020: sacks: 48 (4)
2019: sacks: 40 (18)
2020: 3rd down: 39.6 (12)
2019: 3rd down: 46.7 (30)
2020: Pts per game: 22.9 (12)
2019: Pts per game: 27.6 (28)

These are excellent points. Take into account the loss of Jones and Peters were substantial and add in a patchwork secondary and these numbers look good. I know a lot of people were complaining about Simmons not playing but did anyone take into account that maybe he wasn't disciplined enough in the schemes early on to play? Remember he was pretty much a free roamer in college.

 

[PJ1]

These are excellent points. Take into account the loss of Jones and Peters were substantial and add in a patchwork secondary and these numbers look good. I know a lot of people were complaining about Simmons not playing but did anyone take into account that maybe he wasn't disciplined enough in the schemes early on to play? Remember he was pretty much a free roamer in college.

Then you need to take into account the injuries the offense's we played had. This defense just wasn't good.

 

[Chopper0080]

When Tua has a career high game against our defense and then struggles the rest of the year so much that Fitzpatrick has to rescue the team and they are considering drafting a QB at #3 should tell everyone what they need to know about Vance's defense.

 

[DVontel]

When Tua has a career high game against our defense and then struggles the rest of the year so much that Fitzpatrick has to rescue the team and they are considering drafting a QB at #3 should tell everyone what they need to know about Vance's defense.

Talking about “progression” from last season.


Uh, no, the defense just went against more & much worse QBs.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

These are excellent points. Take into account the loss of Jones and Peters were substantial and add in a patchwork secondary and these numbers look good. I know a lot of people were complaining about Simmons not playing but did anyone take into account that maybe he wasn't disciplined enough in the schemes early on to play? Remember he was pretty much a free roamer in college.

If he really couldn't figure out a way to use Simmons, why not give Brent Venables at Clemson a call? Every season at some point VJ has to simplify his defensive assignments. He did it last season with about 5 games to go, that's when Jalen Thompson took off, the defense started flying to the ball, hell even Kerr looked unblockable. He did it again this season, can't remember which game but I heard one player from the defense in an interview talking about it. Maybe his schemes are too complicated? Idk really but his defenses haven't been great at every stop in his DC tenure. Ask Dolphins & Broncos fans about him & you'll here more of the same complaints. I understand the injuries he had to deal with this season but every DC has the same problems. Yes our offense didn't help out in many games either but the 3rd & longs geez louise, get a clue VJ. 3 & 29 against the Eagles & we give up 23 yards on a damn screen pass, are you kidding me? A pop warner defensive coach could've sniffed that play out but not VJ.

 

[SoonerLou]

Not trying to pile on Vance, but I still dont know how we gave up that 1st down run to Cam Newton.

 

[FB94]

To be honest, yes Vance has his issues but the reason the team didnt make the playoffs is simple, the offense. They were hot in the first half of the season and then dropped off the face of the earth the second half.

I think it’s on both KK and VJ equally. Offense sputtered down the stretch but how many times did the defense give up a score right after we score, and to end the year with back to back no name QBs make us look bad. That’s on VJ

 

[BritCard]

Coaching not to lose is very different than coaching to win.

My point was that his scheme is designed to be soft. That is why we may see good numbers over the course of the year but will never have a great defense and will continue to have instances where bad or inexperienced QBs have their best game against us. Vance just does not put pressure on other teams because he wants to avoid giving up the big play over everything else.

I didn't say we weren't. My point was that he has to adjust to what he has available on the field. For example, as he did with the 0-6-5 scheme. We had a bunch of D linemen injured and one of his solutions to that was to play 6 linebackers. And it worked pretty well.

Would he have done that without the injuries? I doubt it as he didn't last year. So he was adapting to the situation.

I'm not really sure we can say definitively that this is the way he WANTS to play defense. But he has a couple of average, not very quick linebackers. His starting CB's are both past their peaks. His D line, OLB1 and SS1 have missed most of the season.

Maybe he thought this was the only way he could play with backups/average starters? Considering our front 7 contains 0 stars I think finishing 4th in sacks and 6th vs the pass is pretty good. And considering the D line injuries the run stats weren't too bad either.

I completely understand what you are saying, I get frustrated watching this D ALL the time, but I've seen much more progress from Vance than Kliff. While Vance has been adjusting and handling some big players going out well Kliff has looked clueless on how to get the most out of a mostly full strength offense.

 

[BritCard]

Also gotta factor amount of bum or rookie QBs the defense went against. It’s one thing if a Matt Ryan or Ryan Tannehill kills us. That’s fine. But a rookie Tua(where his only standout game was against us), Jalen Hurts, & Teddy Bridgewater do it? Jared Goff having a lousy year, but his best game of the season happening against no one other than?.......Us.

It's a fair point.

But we also didn't give up more than 20 points in 8 of our games. Would have been 9 if you count 7 of the Eagles points came from a 30 yard field on a fumble. 10 if you deduct the 10 points the Lions scored off short fields due to interceptions. If going into the season you were told we would allow 20 or less in the highest scoring season on record in 10 of our games you would be well pleased with that. You'd be happy with 8.

But you are also right, we did play some sucky QB's, but the D did their job against them more than you let on.

The Niners scored 20 with Beathard, mostly with the run and they are always a running team. Our O let us down. Pats scored 17 with the ghost of Cam Newton and the O let us down. Rams scored 18 with a pick 6 and FGs vs Wolford and the O let us down. They stopped Haskins, they stopped Jimmy J, they largely did their job against all the QB's you would expect them to stop except Tua.

That game was the turning point of our season where despite scoring 30+ coaching sucked on both sides of the ball.

The only 2 games I'd say our D was really bad were the Panthers (with no safeties) and the Miami games. Other than that I think they did what was expected of them. Of course, they sucked vs the Rams in game 1 too but then we all expected that because the Rams have our number.

But overall I saw much, much more progress from the defense and all while carrying pretty much all the major injuries on that side of the ball.

That being said, If they fired Vance I wouldn't be the slightest bit bothered. I just don't see it happening and I'm trying to be fair to the guy. I've been slandering him for 18 months, I should give him some credit too.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I didn't say we weren't. My point was that he has to adjust to what he has available on the field. For example, as he did with the 0-6-5 scheme. We had a bunch of D linemen injured and one of his solutions to that was to play 6 linebackers. And it worked pretty well.

Would he have done that without the injuries? I doubt it as he didn't last year. So he was adapting to the situation.

I'm not really sure we can say definitively that this is the way he WANTS to play defense. But he has a couple of average, not very quick linebackers. His starting CB's are both past their peaks. His D line, OLB1 and SS1 have missed most of the season.

Maybe he thought this was the only way he could play with backups/average starters? Considering our front 7 contains 0 stars I think finishing 4th in sacks and 6th vs the pass is pretty good. And considering the D line injuries the run stats weren't too bad either.

I completely understand what you are saying, I get frustrated watching this D ALL the time, but I've seen much more progress from Vance than Kliff. While Vance has been adjusting and handling some big players going out well Kliff has looked clueless on how to get the most out of a mostly full strength offense.

 

[GuernseyCard]

It's a fair point.

But we also didn't give up more than 20 points in 8 of our games. Would have been 9 if you count 7 of the Eagles points came from a 30 yard field on a fumble. 10 if you deduct the 10 points the Lions scored off short fields due to interceptions. If going into the season you were told we would allow 20 or less in the highest scoring season on record in 10 of our games you would be well pleased with that. You'd be happy with 8.

But you are also right, we did play some sucky QB's, but the D did their job against them more than you let on.

The Niners scored 20 with Beathard, mostly with the run and they are always a running team. Our O let us down. Pats scored 17 with the ghost of Cam Newton and the O let us down. Rams scored 18 with a pick 6 and FGs vs Wolford and the O let us down. They stopped Haskins, they stopped Jimmy J, they largely did their job against all the QB's you would expect them to stop except Tua.

That game was the turning point of our season where despite scoring 30+ coaching sucked on both sides of the ball.

The only 2 games I'd say our D was really bad were the Panthers (with no safeties) and the Miami games. Other than that I think they did what was expected of them. Of course, they sucked vs the Rams in game 1 too but then we all expected that because the Rams have our number.

But overall I saw much, much more progress from the defense and all while carrying pretty much all the major injuries on that side of the ball.

That being said, If they fired Vance I wouldn't be the slightest bit bothered. I just don't see it happening and I'm trying to be fair to the guy. I've been slandering him for 18 months, I should give him some credit too.

 

[akg102]

I don't know how hard to be on aspects of the coaching because I think we seriously lack talent/athleticism.

In regards to VJ, I hate the "bend don't break" defense. I don't know if that's a byproduct of our lack of talent and him doing the only thing he can, OR that's at the heart of VJ's desired scheme.

With an explosive offense (supposedly), I'd rather break occasionally and force more 3/outs and turnovers. 1:3 TOP isn't going to do us any favors in the long run. 8+ minute drives kill the entire flow for how this team is built.

 

[Vacard]

Our defense is slow and reactionary. Get more speed and better tacklers.