If great defenses are the reason shooting in the NBA...

[Lars the Red]

is down, does that mean we're playing great defensive teams in the Olympics? I mean really, the 3 point line is closer so one might believe it easier to shoot from there. Are these defenders just that tough that we end the half shooting about 35% and at least 5 of the makes were dunks. Great defense? I doubt it.

Can you honestly watch these games and not see that these multi-million dollar, 'greatest players in the world', are simply great athletes with marginal basketball skills? How many times over the last several years have we heard, 'oh it's the defense, yes, the defense is so great, the shooting is bound to go down'. That of course sounds good, but in reality I think we can now see it isn't great defense, because average athletes are shooting a pretty solid percentage against our great defenders. It's really lousy fundamental skills, and a work ethic that borders on embarrassing.

Listen to these kids from other teams discribe how much time they spend on drills. Shooting, ball handling, footwork, passing. That's how you create an enjoyable product to watch, not by having one on one ball handling exhibitions or rim hanging contests.

If it's not the defense, then what else could it be? Skills perhaps?

 

[Joe Mama]

I think you are preaching to the choir Lars. Everybody realizes that the players are getting younger and younger and coming into the NBA with fewer and fewer basketball skills. Good shooting is especially lacking. Defense, ballhandling, and passing skills are also lacking.

However controlling coaches, better defenses, the Pat Riley/Jeff Van Gundy slowdown game, etc. are also contributing factors. It's all part of the problem.

Joe Mama

 

[NJYAJ09]

I don't think this is the problem but how often do NBA players take shots a couple steps in front of the line? (i.e. olympic 3point line)


Not very often.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't think this is the problem but how often do NBA players take shots a couple steps in front of the line? (i.e. olympic 3point line)


Not very often.

20 footers? Are you kidding me? It's the majority of shots for guys like AI, Kobe, T-Mac - hell - any swing man - 18-20 feet should be money for "shooting" guards.

 

[hafey2]

You can get off your soapbox Lars. I think every single person who has come to this board in the last two weeks understands your opinion on the matter.

 

[elindholm]

It's the majority of shots for guys like AI, Kobe, T-Mac - hell - any swing man - 18-20 feet should be money for "shooting" guards.

I agree that it "should be," but it isn't. I bet the league average from that distance is no better than 30%.

 

[Joe Mama]

It's the majority of shots for guys like AI, Kobe, T-Mac - hell - any swing man - 18-20 feet should be money for "shooting" guards.

I agree that it "should be," but it isn't. I bet the league average from that distance is no better than 30%.

I agree. This is what makes guys like Richard Hamilton special. His specialty is hitting those midrange shots and finding open spots to do it.

Joe Mama

 

[Lars the Red]

I think you are preaching to the choir Lars. Everybody realizes that the players are getting younger and younger and coming into the NBA with fewer and fewer basketball skills. Good shooting is especially lacking. Defense, ballhandling, and passing skills are also lacking.

Joe, I agree with you about the guys being younger, but you learn how to shoot in grade school or Jr. High. Most guys have the stroke their going to have by early high school. You don't learn how to shoot in college. These kids didn't work on shooting, they worked on dunking, and dunking doesn't give you a game.

However controlling coaches, better defenses, the Pat Riley/Jeff Van Gundy slowdown game, etc. are also contributing factors. It's all part of the problem.

Joe Mama

Riley did the 'Showtime' gig for a while. Only when the talent pool got shallow did he change to the grind it style. You can blame a small part on these factors, but it boils down to an inferior skilled player.

 

[Lars the Red]

I don't think this is the problem but how often do NBA players take shots a couple steps in front of the line? (i.e. olympic 3point line)


Not very often.

So your saying it's too close? Okay, imagining that I buy that for a minute, then why don't they step back? Or heaven forbid, step forward and shoot a 12 footer? Never mind, this isn't going to work.

 

[Lars the Red]

You can get off your soapbox Lars. I think every single person who has come to this board in the last two weeks understands your opinion on the matter.

Then give us yours, buck. Don't just sit on the sideline, if you don't like hearing oneside, enlighten us to the other.

 

[Lars the Red]

I agree. This is what makes guys like Richard Hamilton special. His specialty is hitting those midrange shots and finding open spots to do it.

Joe Mama

Rip is one of the few guys in the league that recognizes it's an easier shot, you'll make a better percentage, and score more in the long run.

A couple of years back an old team mate of mine and I were watching a college game and having a couple of beers. He, being a gunner, pointed out that both teams were spending too much time trying to figure out if they were taking 3's or 2's instead of just stroking the open shot. That's when we both came to the conclusion we needed to coach teams. We would teach the kids to shoot medium range jumpers. They would pull up off the dribble 80% of the time when driving. Our big men would all develop a Cowans style hook shot and a jump hook. Both shots are very easy to learn, can be shot with either hand, allow kids that don't jump well the opportunity to get shots off, and they are easy shots to follow.

So much of todays game relies completely on athleticism. You can't teach it, you either have it or you don't. What you can teach are ways that allow you to compete against a superior athlete and beat them with skill. I'm old school and what I see in the Euro style is old school. What I see in the US style is no school. I'll take the OS any day.

 

[hafey2]

my point, Lars, is that you are beating a dead horse. most people here will agree with a general deterioation of fundamentals in the NBA from the 70s and 80s. I don't think anyone is arguing that. What I see is the same tiresome debate on the extent of the deterioation. Plus you really do come off as, uh, "old school" when you call people "buck."

 

[Joe Mama]

Joe, I agree with you about the guys being younger, but you learn how to shoot in grade school or Jr. High. Most guys have the stroke their going to have by early high school. You don't learn how to shoot in college. These kids didn't work on shooting, they worked on dunking, and dunking doesn't give you a game.

Hold on a second. Assuming you are correct about players developing most of their shooting skills in grade school (something I don't necessarily agree with), are you suggesting that they spend their time dunking and practicing dunking at that age? I'll bet that two thirds of the players in the NBA couldn't dunk a basketball until they were at least 14-15 years old.

Players might develop their shooting style at a young age, but they generally get a lot of help with it through junior high, high school, and college. They also spend a whole lot more time, or at least should spend a whole lot more time, practicing their shooting at those ages.

Riley did the 'Showtime' gig for a while. Only when the talent pool got shallow did he change to the grind it style. You can blame a small part on these factors, but it boils down to an inferior skilled player.

Pat Riley did coach teams with less talent after the Showtime Lakers, but the talent he had with the New York Knicks and Miami Heat wasn't necessarily "shallow". The fact is the players on those teams were better suited for a slowdown, half-court, power game than the Showtime style. Unfortunately that New York Knicks/Miami Heat style of play makes for less scoring and more boring basketball.

However you to bring up another problem with today's NBA. Since the late eighties and early nineties the NBA has added 6-7 more teams. That means that there are 30-35 guys in the NBA who would not be starting. Those guys and others could be coming off the bench and giving other teams depth.

Joe Mama

 

[Lars the Red]

Hold on a second. Assuming you are correct about players developing most of their shooting skills in grade school (something I don't necessarily agree with), are you suggesting that they spend their time dunking and practicing dunking at that age? I'll bet that two thirds of the players in the NBA couldn't dunk a basketball until they were at least 14-15 years old.

Most players develop their basic skills at an early age. By the time they are in jr high, they pretty well have the mechanics down and will only be fine tuning it. That's not to say they won't continue to develop their overall game, or improve their range and accuracy with increased strength, but the basic skills are now in place.

Players might develop their shooting style at a young age, but they generally get a lot of help with it through junior high, high school, and college. They also spend a whole lot more time, or at least should spend a whole lot more time, practicing their shooting at those ages.

I don't recall coaches working with shooting styles in college. Maybe a little in high school, but you either have it or you don't by then in most cases. As for shooting, I shot more from 6th grade to 10th grade than I ever did in college. That's not saying I didn't spend a bunch of time doing shooting drills in college, but we'd spend every minute from the time we got out of school till it got too dark playing horse or around the world, or just shooting the ball in those early years.

Pat Riley did coach teams with less talent after the Showtime Lakers, but the talent he had with the New York Knicks and Miami Heat wasn't necessarily "shallow". The fact is the players on those teams were better suited for a slowdown, half-court, power game than the Showtime style. Unfortunately that New York Knicks/Miami Heat style of play makes for less scoring and more boring basketball.

Joe, they were bad offensive teams. You can sugar coat it all you want, but they didn't have many solid shooters on those teams. They had good athletes, so they used that strength to be strong defensive squads, but they didn't have enough talent to play an uptempo, offensive game.

However you to bring up another problem with today's NBA. Since the late eighties and early nineties the NBA has added 6-7 more teams. That means that there are 30-35 guys in the NBA who would not be starting. Those guys and others could be coming off the bench and giving other teams depth.

Joe Mama

Your absolutely right about that. The product is a bit watered down, but I guess if you look at the growth in population nationwide, it might not be that much of a watered down effect as we think.