If things couldnt get any worse for the Patriots.

[Sandan]

Guys nobody is saying the Pat's aren't good.

What we are saying is this cheating gives them a little edge to help push them over the top.

There is a huge difference in trying to figure out signals manually, vs having tapes you can compare to video and decode them at your leisure. Big different

 

[joeshmo]

There is a huge difference in trying to figure out signals manually, vs having tapes you can compare to video and decode them at your leisure. Big different

Just about to say the same thing. It is like the difference between eye witness accounts and video footage during trails. There is usually a pretty wide gap between those types of testimony in a court room.

Try walking into a room for 3 seconds walk out then name all the details in the room. You will not get a very clear picture compared to an actual analyzed picture.

Then there is also the video taping of walk throughs thing. Being able to the plays a team is most working on is a huge advantage. Lets also not forget that they not only took video but they took the video with guys disguised in the opposing teams colors on the opposing teams sidelines. If B didnt think it was illegal why go through all the trouble of disguising your video guys? Shady, Shady practices all the way around.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Lax? First rounder and the largest fine in the history of the game is lax? Billy had to cut a check for a half a million and the Pats had to for a quarter mil.

Yes I call a fine and the loss of 1 draft pick lax considering that this douchebag has been cheating now for 8 years. During that time his team has went from good to unbelieveable, not to mention they have won three Super Bowls. The real Bill Belicheck as a coach was the bum that couldn't even hold on to his job in Cleveland.

I agree he's a shmuck, but taking rings away isn't right to those player who worked and earned their ring.

Go back and read please. Never did I say anything about taking player's rings. For the record though, I am pretty sure it is impossible to cheat and earn at the same time.

It goes back to the Barry Bonds asterisk debate. But I hardly think the punishment was lax.

I am not saying the team isn't good, but what if the cheating played a role in that? Bill was lucky to fall upon Brady and a team with good owners. The reason they have been able to attract so many good vets at such great prices is their success. Do you think Seau and Moss would be there at their current costs if the Pats were a .500 team? If they weren't so good Moss would be a Packer right now. How would that have affected this season???

No way was 1 pick and 3/4 of a mill near enough for what he has done.

 

[DoTheDew]

So why do they tape then? If they're not getting any benefit from it why do it?

They can't have it both ways they clearly felt it was an advantage or they wouldn't have been doing it.

Why do the Cards still have Holt on their payroll? They aren't getting any benefit from it.

 

[DoTheDew]

Guys nobody is saying the Pat's aren't good.

What we are saying is this cheating gives them a little edge to help push them over the top.

There is a huge difference in trying to figure out signals manually, vs having tapes you can compare to video and decode them at your leisure. Big different

Thing is, a wise team would use the cheating as an advantage and plan on the Patriots "knowing" the defensive signals, then when they are going to use this knowledge, make it backfire by having the exact same signals mean something different. Could turn a TD pass to Moss into an INT or sack if the Pats really were hedging their bets on the signals they taped.

 

[ajcardfan]

Remember how in the McGinnis years, teams would come to visit us a year or two later, and be unsurprised that we hadn't changed any of our signals or audibles? What a fantastic era for the franchise.

I'll never forget after a game against Detroit (which we had won something like 45-42) Ron McKinnon said on the radio that they knew all of our defensive calls because (I quote) "we run Tobin's defense." Now, you have to understand Tobin was the DC in Detroit after he got fired here and that McGinnis coached under Tobin to understand how profoundly stupid that was.

 

[Cards232]

One thing that bares mentioning, potentially, we're not just talking about stealing signals from the sidelines. If DC's change their signals every game, that's not a big issue & not one that would effect the outcome of a game.

However, if they were taping walkthroughs before games, that's a big deal & definitely could give an unfair advantage. It's also worth mentioning that coaches have complained about losing communications w/ the headsets during crucial parts of games when visiting Foxboro. There's also been indication that at times there has been interference on the headphones which could indicate unauthorized listening.

Is this real, or is it Memorex? Don't know. But is it really beyond the realm of possibilty w/ Belicheck? It will be very intersting to see what Walsh has to say. If indeed this is more nafarious than just stealing signs, he should be banned for life, if nothing else but for the good of the game.

 

[Skkorpion]

One thing that bares mentioning, potentially, we're not just talking about stealing signals from the sidelines. If DC's change their signals every game, that's not a big issue & not one that would effect the outcome of a game.

However, if they were taping walkthroughs before games, that's a big deal & definitely could give an unfair advantage. It's also worth mentioning that coaches have complained about losing communications w/ the headsets during crucial parts of games when visiting Foxboro. There's also been indication that at times there has been interference on the headphones which could indicate unauthorized listening.

Is this real, or is it Memorex? Don't know. But is it really beyond the realm of possibilty w/ Belicheck? It will be very intersting to see what Walsh has to say. If indeed this is more nafarious than just stealing signs, he should be banned for life, if nothing else but for the good of the game.

Correct for reminding us of this. Thanks.

 

[BigRedMO]

We are living in the age of no ethics. Win or succeed at any cost. Baseball, football, tennis, basketball, govt, corporations. It really is a very sad time. I have no confidence in the ethics of any organization or grouping of more than 2 people. Maybe we are in the last days of the Roman Empire.

 

[BigRedMO]

... and with the economy looking to be in serious trouble, being stuck in a war that's going on it's 5th year (halfway home!), and changes needed in the way the bureaucracy works our state employee (a senator no less) has decided to spend his time on this...

"Term Limits" should be a blueprint.

All term limits get you is to increase their motivation to hook themselves up sooner. So day one they will be working a golden parachute. 100% publicly funded campaigns is the answer. If you want somebody to work for you then you have to be the only one paying them. If I pay a cop to escape a ticket or donate money to a politician for favorable treatment on an issue they are both bribes.

 

[BigRedMO]

Werent the Pats reprimanded for not accurately reporting injuries as well? Did they list Brady's ankle?

 

[Skkorpion]

Werent the Pats reprimanded for not accurately reporting injuries as well?

Good memory. I think they were, leading Belichick to load up the injury list with obfuscatingly nonsensical gobs of injuries.

 

[CardinalChris]

Yes I call a fine and the loss of 1 draft pick lax considering that this douchebag has been cheating now for 8 years. During that time his team has went from good to unbelieveable, not to mention they have won three Super Bowls. The real Bill Belicheck as a coach was the bum that couldn't even hold on to his job in Cleveland.

Honestly you think they got dominant because he taped? Could it be that he's a damn good coach with a great QB that found each other and literally in that first season and a half went from good to unbelievable. Seems like those two things did it, not the taping, although I am sure it helped. And how do you explain this year without the cheating? That was one of the greatest seasons a team has EVER had. Great coach and a great QB play did that.

Go back and read please. Never did I say anything about taking player's rings. For the record though, I am pretty sure it is impossible to cheat and earn at the same time.

So those player who knew about the taping, and you are kidding yourself if you think they didn't know, because EVERYONE seemed to know but the fans, their cheating in your mind is OK, but not the coach? This seems unlikely the coach is in this alone. Miami got caught last year doing the same thing last year. How much of that did you hear about? Anyone lose their job or give back wins for it? It is always interesting how the hate for a crime increases as the criminal's success increase.

I am not saying the team isn't good, but what if the cheating played a role in that? Bill was lucky to fall upon Brady and a team with good owners. The reason they have been able to attract so many good vets at such great prices is their success. Do you think Seau and Moss would be there at their current costs if the Pats were a .500 team? If they weren't so good Moss would be a Packer right now. How would that have affected this season???

No way was 1 pick and 3/4 of a mill near enough for what he has done.

Wow, that is one slippery slope. From video taping to Moss playing with the packers? Really? Moss and Seau are there for the culture and success of that team. It was their chance at a ring. Again, if the pats are so dependent on those tapes, how do you explain this year? I'd take an 18-1 record next year. They are good for Brady and Slick Billy. I hate him because I wish MY team won that much. But I am not misguided to make claims about taking back championships. Heck, everyone in the LEAGUE knew they did this, but it took a Brutus to turn the guy in. This wasn't some deep, kept secret in the league.
We just hate it more because we can go "Ah-ha!!! I knew they weren't that good" But they are.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Wow, that is one slippery slope. From video taping to Moss playing with the packers? Really? Moss and Seau are there for the culture and success of that team. It was their chance at a ring. Again, if the pats are so dependent on those tapes, how do you explain this year? I'd take an 18-1 record next year. They are good for Brady and Slick Billy. I hate him because I wish MY team won that much. But I am not misguided to make claims about taking back championships. Heck, everyone in the LEAGUE knew they did this, but it took a Brutus to turn the guy in. This wasn't some deep, kept secret in the league.
We just hate it more because we can go "Ah-ha!!! I knew they weren't that good" But they are.

I'm not trying to sound mean but you really seem to have some serious man love for the Pats. I was just on the Patriot board and they dont even defend the team as much as you do.

 

[chickenhead]

With regard to "everyone doing it," the weird thing to me is that it WAS the Pats who got caught. They are such a well-run franchise, I would think that even their cheating would be of a higher quality.

I don't believe that the league has it out for them, because I don't think the anti-Pats sentiment at the beginning of the season was anything close to the sentiment towards the end. Maybe it was just a matter of Mangini knowing about it and being willing to speak up (whatever his reasons were).

 

[Duckjake]

i still find all this illegal filming the Patriots did hilarious in light of the fact that one of their coaches came unglued and started cursing at a friend of mine who was taking pictures of the Patriots bench with a cell phone.

Stout will remember that as it happened after Stout and my buddy helped carry the flag onto the field at SDS during Stouts ASFN trip to Phoenix.

 

[Lloydian]

I just don't buy the "everybody does it" argument. If it's true that every team cheats, then every team needs to be punished for cheating.

One of the hallmarks of football, for me, is that the rules are so very rigid. There is a line of scrimmage, they have to gain 10 yards for a first down, scores happen when they cross the goal line, penalties result in specific yardage assessments. This is unlike baseball where every park has different dimensions, the lineup rules are different for AL and NL, and pitches come down to whether or not the umpire is accurate in determining the strike zone.

If the Patriots broke a rule (and I don't buy the "it was insignificant" defense for the already stated reason that if it meant nothing, why do it) to assist them in winning a championship, they should be severely penalized. I'm not saying they should take away their previous wins, but I'm all in favor of an NCAA style "no postseason play" for a season penalty. If the penalty is harsh enough, maybe it will prevent other teams from cheating.

 

[Stout]

i still find all this illegal filming the Patriots did hilarious in light of the fact that one of their coaches came unglued and started cursing at a friend of mine who was taking pictures of the Patriots bench with a cell phone.

Stout will remember that as it happened after Stout and my buddy helped carry the flag onto the field at SDS during Stouts ASFN trip to Phoenix.

Yeah, no joke. The whole pot calling the kettle black thing.

 

[BigRedMO]

The spying combined with lying on the injury reports tells me he has a problem with ethics and obeying the rules. If I am the commisioner or the Pats GM or owner I tell Bellichek to follow the rules or find a new occupation. Then I tell him one more ethics violation effecting onfield competition and your gone forever. I would say that even if I was the owner or GM. Some say you cant fire him because he wins. I would not be willing to win at any cost. He brought those Superbowls but now the Pats are synnomous with cheater. Every single achievement of that team is in question. They are the Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens of NFL teams. Who knows what cheating the Pats have done we dont know about.

 

[CardinalChris]

I'm not trying to sound mean but you really seem to have some serious man love for the Pats. I was just on the Patriot board and they dont even defend the team as much as you do.

Not at all. But I am defending neither their actions or the team. I just we all get carried away about claims like forcing them to give back rings. They got punished, and pretty fairly in my opinion. I have yet to defend their actions. I just defend their punishment.

 

[Billy Bob]

Cheating in sports is unecceptable, I learn that when I was 4.

I think the punishment sould be harsh, the fine and the pick are not enough. Belicheck has said the Patriots have been taping other teams since 2000" (that's 8 years) Belichack should be banned from the NFL indefinitely and after 8 years he can apply fpr reinstatement, the patriots should loose thier next 8 first round picks and the operate under a 75% salary cap for the next 8 years.

the Patriots cheated for 8 years, so they should pay the price for eight years!

 

[cardsfanmd]

Not at all. But I am defending neither their actions or the team. I just we all get carried away about claims like forcing them to give back rings. They got punished, and pretty fairly in my opinion. I have yet to defend their actions. I just defend their punishment.

I never said anything about taking their rings. I said Belicheck should lose his. What happens when Olympians are caught cheating??

 

[SuperSpck]

What happens when Olympians are caught cheating??

They lose their rings? I say take the yellow and red rings. They remind me of McDonalds'.