If we draft Terrell Suggs-Absolutely no more excuses for Joe Greene and Dave Mac.

[Lomax to Green 84]

Suggs isn't my guy, but part of me hopes they draft him just so there can be no more excuses for this putrid defense. Mac has been with this organization for going on 8 years now and not one of his defenses has ever finished in the top 20 in total defense. I guess we can excuse him for the first 4-5 years when Tobin was calling the shots and bringing in his players, but this will be the 3rd draft under Mac, so no more excuses.

If they draft Suggs, then the entire starting defensive line was brought in under Mac's regime (Suggs, Bryant, Bell, KVB). He also brought in Levar Fisher, extended the contract of Ronnie Mac, signed Duane Starks and Dexter Jackson to free agent deals, and drafted defensive backs Micheal Stone, Adrian Wilson, and Renaldo Hill. If the talent level is still bad then he has no one to blame but himself and anything less than 8 wins and I think he needs to go.

I love Coach Mac but he needs to produce. No more building, no more "plan" talk. He has had 3 years and we need to see some fruit from this master plan.

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

Agree 100 percent. 12-29 win loss record at what point do you say we've seen enough????? It amazes me that the entire staff from the Tobin years we're retained. I don't buy the if only we had more talent argument. At what point is coaching accountable????

 

[kerouac9]

While I respect your passion, I think that 8 wins is asking a lot for this team, and this coach. I have my suspicions about Mac, too (I called in to a post game show when he was interim begging them to bring in a "real" head coach), but I don't think that Vince Lombardi could squeeze eight wins out of this squad as it stands now.

I think that if I was Bidwill, I'd look over the schedule and sit down with Mac before he leaves for Flag and tell him that he can keep his job if he gets five or six wins, as long as at least half the losses were by no more than a touchdown or less. No more blowouts with this D. No more goose eggs by this O. He's had all his guys in the lockerroom, and it's time to be competitive.

I'm starting to have my doubts about Suggs, too, if only because I think that Robertson might make the whole D better on every down. But if Suggs is the guy that Graves and Mac want, and not just because he's a hometown boy, but because he gives them the best chance to win, take him. I just don't want to hear about how we give up 4.4 ypc next year, and can't control the clock.

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

Almost forgot. What about our scouts each year that evaluate the players that struggle to make the roster as Draft picks??? (Nate Dwyer) seems every year we have several undrafted FA's winning a spot a training camp. another 5-6 wins this year & I'll be calling for his head (MAC)& the entire defensive staff. They've already shown that they are not competent at making adjustments. How can a defensive coach look himself in the mirror after being dead last in the league in sacks for 2-3 consecutive years????

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9
While I respect your passion, I think that 8 wins is asking a lot for this team, and this coach. I have my suspicions about Mac, too (I called in to a post game show when he was interim begging them to bring in a "real" head coach), but I don't think that Vince Lombardi could squeeze eight wins out of this squad as it stands now.

I think that if I was Bidwill, I'd look over the schedule and sit down with Mac before he leaves for Flag and tell him that he can keep his job if he gets five or six wins, as long as at least half the losses were by no more than a touchdown or less. No more blowouts with this D. No more goose eggs by this O. He's had all his guys in the lockerroom, and it's time to be competitive.

I'm starting to have my doubts about Suggs, too, if only because I think that Robertson might make the whole D better on every down. But if Suggs is the guy that Graves and Mac want, and not just because he's a hometown boy, but because he gives them the best chance to win, take him. I just don't want to hear about how we give up 4.4 ypc next year, and can't control the clock.

I don't know Keroauc....Vince Lombardi took over a terrible Redskins team after he was with the Packers, and immediately turned them into a 10 win team. But I do see what you mean. This team will be lucky to be 7-9.

I do agree that Robertson might, overall, make our defense better. He is stout against the run, and would give us another interior pass rusher. So overall, our defense will be better. The thing is....imo Suggs could be a special player, and could be one of the better at a position that is extremely hard to fill.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
....imo Suggs could be a special player, and could be one of the better at a position that is extremely hard to fill.

I don't know. I could probably name more "special" pass rushers than I could "dominant" DTs. Just a thought. It's easy to get a fat guy (Bell, Tanner, R. Davis) to play DT, and harder to find a big, fast guy to play DE, but I think it's harder to find a good DT than a good DE.

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

A good DT could make our run defense better. A Good DE could make our overall defense better. Generated pass rush off the edge, makes the LB's & secondary's jobs easier. We're force to play alot of zone coverages because our pass rush is horrible. When we play man, we all know what happens there QB get 6-8 seconds, (enough time to file some income taxes) then hits receivers all day long. If we had 2 Solid DE's our DT's would'nt appear to be so weak.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by bigdaddy_redbird
A good DT could make our run defense better. A Good DE could make our overall defense better. Generated pass rush off the edge, makes the LB's & secondary's jobs easier. We're force to play alot of zone coverages because our pass rush is horrible. When we play man, we all know what happens there QB get 6-8 seconds, (enough time to file some income taxes) then hits receivers all day long. If we had 2 Solid DE's our DT's would'nt appear to be so weak.

That's BS. You seem to forget that teams ran the ball all day on us last year (we were in the bottom three in the league in rushing D). All a pass rushing DE does is make passing D better. A quality DT makes the pass rush better (by freeing up DEs because O-Linemen have to focus on the DT) and makes the LBs better in pass (don't need to blitz) and run (fewer blockers) coverage.

 

[RedStorm]

Originally posted by kerouac9
That's BS. You seem to forget that teams ran the ball all day on us last year (we were in the bottom three in the league in rushing D). All a pass rushing DE does is make passing D better. A quality DT makes the pass rush better (by freeing up DEs because O-Linemen have to focus on the DT) and makes the LBs better in pass (don't need to blitz) and run (fewer blockers) coverage.

We definately need a DT and a DE with our first two picks. WR with our 3rd.

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

I guess they did'nt pass on us all last year either...... You can argue your point & I'll argue mine...But I don't think either is BS

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by kerouac9
You seem to forget that teams ran the ball all day on us last year (we were in the bottom three in the league in rushing D). All a pass rushing DE does is make passing D better. A quality DT makes the pass rush better (by freeing up DEs because O-Linemen have to focus on the DT) and makes the LBs better in pass (don't need to blitz) and run (fewer blockers) coverage.

I couldn't have said that better myself.
Well, yeah I could have, but I'm currently in "Draft Leftwich" mode, and I'd rather not go on about the 6'2" 324 lb 4.84 40 running Dewayne Robertson doing wonders for 11 defensive positions.

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

what your saying is Fred Wakefield & KVB are not just average players right???? If the had Better DT's to play with they'd be Studs???? right???? Leave our Defense as is & draft a supposed can't miss DT with our #1 pick. We'll still be dead last in nearly every statistical category......Maybe slight improvement in run D. Maybe Ron Mac can get back to making some plays

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by bigdaddy_redbird
what your saying is Fred Wakefield & KVB are not just average players right???? If the had Better DT's to play with they'd be Studs???? right???? Leave our Defense as is & draft a supposed can't miss DT with our #1 pick. We'll still be dead last in nearly every statistical category......Maybe slight improvement in run D. Maybe Ron Mac can get back to making some plays

I disagree...and here is where kerouac is headed I think. A huge ass run stuffing DT who can also collapse the pocket is more valuable for a couple reasons. First, by being able to stop the run, you create alot of 2nd and longs and 3rd and longs which allows, even average DEs the chance to pin their ears back with one goal in mind...sacking the QB. Second, if the same DT(s) can collapse the pocket, that creates matchup issues for the oline in that they cannot help out on the outside as easily so guys like Wakefield and KVB are one single matchups...plus they know a pass is coming because the team has stopped the run and thus forced long yardage situtations.

I said it yesterday and will say it again now. The true strength of a defense is measured by the strength of the middle...DTs, MLB and S. That is where defensive strength is found (look at any of the top defenses out there). The glamour boys, DEs, OLBs and CBs, will do NOTHING if the middle group cannot do their jobs.

You can have the best passs rushing DE out there but if the opponents are running the ball right down your throat all day long, that DE's abilities will be neutralized and they are dead in the water.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by bigdaddy_redbird
what your saying is Fred Wakefield & KVB are not just average players right???? If the had Better DT's to play with they'd be Studs???? right???? Leave our Defense as is & draft a supposed can't miss DT with our #1 pick. We'll still be dead last in nearly every statistical category......Maybe slight improvement in run D. Maybe Ron Mac can get back to making some plays

No, I think that KVB is a good starter and Wakefield doesn't deserve a starting job. I think that with better DTs, though we'll free up guys like Dennis Johnson to get on the field and do the 3rd Down Edge rusher job, which is when you need pressure on the QB. No DE, not Jason Taylor, not KGB, not Michael Strahan, not Simeon Rice, is going to be able to sack a QB on a three-step-drop-and-throw on 3rd and 3.

I'll take making a team huck the ball 50 times a game in order to win, and let the secondary do its the work, then a team that completes 85% of it's passes but they're all on 3rd and four.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by AZCB34
I disagree...and here is where kerouac is headed I think. A huge ass run stuffing DT who can also collapse the pocket is more valuable for a couple reasons. First, by being able to stop the run, you create alot of 2nd and longs and 3rd and longs which allows, even average DEs the chance to pin their ears back with one goal in mind...sacking the QB. Second, if the same DT(s) can collapse the pocket, that creates matchup issues for the oline in that they cannot help out on the outside as easily so guys like Wakefield and KVB are one single matchups...plus they know a pass is coming because the team has stopped the run and thus forced long yardage situtations.

I said it yesterday and will say it again now. The true strength of a defense is measured by the strength of the middle...DTs, MLB and S. That is where defensive strength is found (look at any of the top defenses out there). The glamour boys, DEs, OLBs and CBs, will do NOTHING if the middle group cannot do their jobs.

You can have the best passs rushing DE out there but if the opponents are running the ball right down your throat all day long, that DE's abilities will be neutralized and they are dead in the water.

I swear, I promise, this is the last time I'm going to chime in on this and say I COMPLETELY AGREE. Our weekness on D in right up the gut

 

[Zeno]

I've been back and forth on the Suggs thing for awhile. At first I was worried about his size and his ability to take on the larger more athletic OTs in the pros--not to mention the double teams and fullbacks.

Then I was impressed with his scouting reports and his actual public desire to want to stay in Arizona.

Then his poor workout.

I think of all the arguments in this thread I am convinced more and more a stud DT could help this defense out much more than an edge speed rusher. Don't get me wrong I won't be cussing the TV come draft day if Suggs is the pick(the way I did with the Leeland McElroy and Michael Stone picks) but I will fully understand if they passed on him for a DT.

I'm also firmly in the Leftwich corner and think he will be a great player for many years(of course what do I know I actually liked Ryan Leaf and Plummer out of college). If Leftwich is there I really hope we draft him but if he isn't they better go DLine or trade down. I want no part of a WR with the 6th pick.

This team confuses me anyway, the Smith thing still bugs me and bringing in Tony Martin for a workout puzzles me too.

With all this talk of Defense or a QB the Cardinals will probably throw us all for a loop and draft an OT or something.

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

We have'nt stopped teams from running the ball on us since the Buddy ryan era. Simeon Rice was at the top of the sack list every year, playing along side of Rashod Swinger, Barron Tanner, & Brad Ottis. So the argument that DE's can't do anything unless the men inside do their job is'nt fact....Look at Jason Taylor in Miami. which one of his DT's is a dominant force ???Tim Bowens is good but I would'nt say he's like Ted Washington good. Hes's more a penetrator than a run stuffer. I do agree that MLB should be the strenth of a Defense. What I've observed from our `MLB was inability to fill holes, is'nt physical at all & slow getting to the ball. I used to be a big fan of Ron MC. But he does'nt make enough plays to be MLB. Sure he makes alot of tackles (Arm tackles)...but he does'nt make plays. Jason taylor does also have Zack Thomas in the middle..

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by bigdaddy_redbird
We have'nt stopped teams from running the ball on us since the Buddy ryan era. Simeon Rice was at the top of the sack list every year, playing along side of Rashod Swinger, Barron Tanner, & Brad Ottis. So the argument that DE's can't do anything unless the men inside do their job is'nt fact....Look at Jason Taylor in Miami. which one of his DT's is a dominant force??? I do agree that MLB should be the strenth of a Defense. What I've observed from our `MLB was inability to fill holes, is'nt physical at all & slow getting to the ball. I used to be a big fan of Ron MC. But he does'nt make enough plays to be MLB. Sure he makes alot of tackles (Arm tackles)...but he does'nt make plays.

Tim Bowens and Haley are good, good players, but MIA also has a better MLB and better secondary, so they hold teams to little on the ground.

I'm not saying that DEs can't to anything if there aren't good DTs; I'm saying that DEs don't make the whole D better, against the run and pass, like DTs do, and that our greatest weakness last season, in my opinion, was the inability to stop the run. Sacks are a sexy stat, but, again, I would rather make a team huck the ball 50 times than let them rush for 4.5 ypc.

 

[BIGDADDY_REDBIRD]

you posted before I could get my edit through..good points Kerouac 9..but I'd prefer a better than average DE. I'm not so sure that we don't have adequate DT's because our DE's & MLB are so suspect..jmo

 

[AzWins23]

I don't agree with this thread at all....It's not Mac's fault for what the Cardinals do in free agency.......You can't put average players on the field, and expect to win more than 10 games....Give Mac some players to work with, and to coach..And see what happens....We don't have a WR, DE, DT, CB Your not going to win if you don't have these positions....If we have these postions filled...Then we would have nothing to worry about

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Tim Bowens and Haley are good, good players, but MIA also has a better MLB and better secondary, so they hold teams to little on the ground.

I'm not saying that DEs can't to anything if there aren't good DTs; I'm saying that DEs don't make the whole D better, against the run and pass, like DTs do, and that our greatest weakness last season, in my opinion, was the inability to stop the run. Sacks are a sexy stat, but, again, I would rather make a team huck the ball 50 times than let them rush for 4.5 ypc.

I don't know, the Dolphins defense struggled down the stretch.

Losing Daryl Gardener to the Skins last year really hurt them, and Bowens and Haley aren't even half the players that he is when he is on top of his game.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I don't know, the Dolphins defense struggled down the stretch.

Losing Daryl Gardener to the Skins last year really hurt them, and Bowens and Haley aren't even half the players that he is when he is on top of his game.

That's absolutely true, but they're both solid players, and I would rather have either of them then Bell, Tanner, or Wakefield.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9
That's absolutely true, but they're both solid players, and I would rather have either of them then Bell, Tanner, or Wakefield.

To be honest, I wouldn't.

Both of them (Haley and Bowens) are in their 30s. Neither are getting any better, but you could easily argue that Bell, Tanner, and Wakefield are getting better. I like all three and the futures they could have with this team. But I am realistic. I know none of the three will ever be stars, but they will be good enough to plug in occasionally and help the team that way.