Igors substitutions against warriors

[1Sun]

.


Are you kidding? This group of players is much more like a youth sports team than an NBA group and that was Igor's point. I don't know if he's right to do it this way but it's amazing how immature these guys play at times. Igor has to teach them how to play in the NBA but he also has to teach many of them basic fundamentals.

And he is succeeding at doing neither.

 

[Hoop Head]

Yeah.... That's how youth sports should be coached. Not grown ass NBA players. Igor is in over his head. Its painfully obvious watching him try. He doesn't have a feel for the game at all. If by some grace of god we can find an actual NBA coach with some experience, you drop Igor. Unfortunately we can't seem to do that so we have been settling for the scraps the last few years

That's not how you coach a team that is competing for something in the NBA but it's clear we're not competing. The job is to prepare everyone for the future. If this continues into next season then there is a problem but right now it's being handled properly. It's a lost season, why should he change up everything because they happen to be leading after the first quarter? It's one thing to make adjustments in the 4th to try and get a win but it's another to throw everything out at the beginning because you believe you can win that game.

 

[Finito]

What about the injury he just returned from?



Where is Booker? How many games has he played in a row this season? You want to know why he's resting, ask the trainers on the team about his back, hamstring, hand, and ankle.

Ayton is in his 4th game back after missing 6 due to an ankle injury. Did everyone forget we didn't have Ayton for over 2 weeks?

We didn't beat the two time defending champs that start 5 All-Stars and because of that, Igor should be fired.

He’s been doing it all season long just stop with the excuses for him.

 

[Hoop Head]

He’s been doing it all season long just stop with the excuses for him.

I'm not excusing anything, this roster sucks and the team wasn't going to win a lot of games this year regardless of who coached them. The key this year was player development because they lacked players with enough skill to truly compete for anything. All of the players with NBA talent and skill though aren't used to the NBA grind save for Booker and Warren, and we already know those 2 can only carry a team of youngsters and misfits to 20 wins. Ayton, Jackson, Bridges, and everyone else needs to learn to play in the NBA and to learn they need defined roles and consistency. When there is consistency some fans aren't happy because Igor isn't riding the hot hand but when he rides the hot hand he get blasted for having no consistency. He can't win with some people. He got dealt a bad had by McD and McD was fired for that. Jones has taken over as GM and hasn't made any moves that compromise our long term flexibility, which is for the best because our young players need to learn before they're able to contribute much and some patchwork fixes to cover PG or PF for us wouldn't have helped us win more than 30 games anyways and there really is no point in winning 30 games instead of 20 since the year is lost anyway.

It was clear very early on that this team was going nowhere based on the makeup of the roster and that's not Igor's fault, it wasn't his job to build the roster and the guys whose job it was has been fired. Igor's job is to teach our young players and have them ready to contribute next year when some of those holes are filled, hopefully. If they are filled or not though we need to see more wins then because everyone will be a year older and have a year of experience together. The continuity should help this team in the long run. We're seeing how it's helped Jackson finally get back to playing quality basketball after starting the year pretty bad, same can be said of Bridges as well. He wasn't very good early in the year but he's played better each month than the last but I assume that's credit to him and not Igor either, right? Why is it that Igor is faulted for every negative thing that happens but the little positives that are visible are in spite of Igor and not because of him? Is Sarver not enough of a scapegoat that we have to blame Igor also?

 

[Finito]

I'm not excusing anything, this roster sucks and the team wasn't going to win a lot of games this year regardless of who coached them. The key this year was player development because they lacked players with enough skill to truly compete for anything. All of the players with NBA talent and skill though aren't used to the NBA grind save for Booker and Warren, and we already know those 2 can only carry a team of youngsters and misfits to 20 wins. Ayton, Jackson, Bridges, and everyone else needs to learn to play in the NBA and to learn they need defined roles and consistency. When there is consistency some fans aren't happy because Igor isn't riding the hot hand but when he rides the hot hand he get blasted for having no consistency. He can't win with some people. He got dealt a bad had by McD and McD was fired for that. Jones has taken over as GM and hasn't made any moves that compromise our long term flexibility, which is for the best because our young players need to learn before they're able to contribute much and some patchwork fixes to cover PG or PF for us wouldn't have helped us win more than 30 games anyways and there really is no point in winning 30 games instead of 20 since the year is lost anyway.

It was clear very early on that this team was going nowhere based on the makeup of the roster and that's not Igor's fault, it wasn't his job to build the roster and the guys whose job it was has been fired. Igor's job is to teach our young players and have them ready to contribute next year when some of those holes are filled, hopefully. If they are filled or not though we need to see more wins then because everyone will be a year older and have a year of experience together. The continuity should help this team in the long run. We're seeing how it's helped Jackson finally get back to playing quality basketball after starting the year pretty bad, same can be said of Bridges as well. He wasn't very good early in the year but he's played better each month than the last but I assume that's credit to him and not Igor either, right? Why is it that Igor is faulted for every negative thing that happens but the little positives that are visible are in spite of Igor and not because of him? Is Sarver not enough of a scapegoat that we have to blame Igor also?

You know what your right. Everything is going as planned. Nothing to see here.

 

[BC867]

You know what your right. Everything is going as planned. Nothing to see here.

The only plan is . . .

1) Own a billion dollar team (through no accomplishment of the owners)
2) Keep as much of it as possible
3) Fans? What do they have to do with it?

In the words of Paul Simon . . .

You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free

Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free

There must be 50 ways to screw Suns supporters.

 

[HeHasRosen]

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Are you kidding? This group of players is much more like a youth sports team than an NBA group and that was Igor's point. I don't know if he's right to do it this way but it's amazing how immature these guys play at times. Igor has to teach them how to play in the NBA but he also has to teach many of them basic fundamentals.

I actually lol when i read this and i see your point. But i have never seen it done that way after a junior high school level. You establish around how many minutes you want roughly, then adjust to the flow of the game. And when a guys hot you let him go. Its part of development. Its a confidence boost, which is huge for a guy like Ayton right now who plays scared and lackadaisical at times. Or calling timeout when your on a run? Basic fundamental mistakes an NBA coach should not be making. I understand its not all on Igor these guys are young and learning, their mistakes are expected. Its why we need an experienced HC imo

 

[1Sun]

I actually lol when i read this and i see your point. But i have never seen it done that way after a junior high school level. You establish around how many minutes you want roughly, then adjust to the flow of the game. And when a guys hot you let him go. Its part of development. Its a confidence boost, which is huge for a guy like Ayton right now who plays scared and lackadaisical at times. Or calling timeout when your on a run? Basic fundamental mistakes an NBA coach should not be making. I understand its not all on Igor these guys are young and learning, their mistakes are expected. Its why we need an experienced HC imo

I continue to think that a lot of what Igor is doing here might be how things are done in Europe.

The problem is that this isn't Europe.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I actually lol when i read this and i see your point. But i have never seen it done that way after a junior high school level. You establish around how many minutes you want roughly, then adjust to the flow of the game. And when a guys hot you let him go. Its part of development. Its a confidence boost, which is huge for a guy like Ayton right now who plays scared and lackadaisical at times. Or calling timeout when your on a run? Basic fundamental mistakes an NBA coach should not be making. I understand its not all on Igor these guys are young and learning, their mistakes are expected. Its why we need an experienced HC imo

Yeah I don't know if I have either but I don't have the experience he does so I'm hoping he knows what he's talking about. It could be worse, we could hire Steve Lavin and let him force them to make at least 3 passes before initiating the offense. Anyway, I can imagine that structure and routine are important, I'm just not convinced that pre-planned substitutions are the way to go. But I do agree with his thinking that raising these kids is more important than stealing the rare win now and then.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Or, perhaps Ayton himself shows that he needs to be taken out for either a breather or for coaching reasons. We have no idea what is being discussed among the coaches and with Ayton. Because of the record of course it is all negative.
You know what I see as a positive? Teams actually have to play against the Suns this season. Did you see Kerr hand the clipboard to his players this season against the Suns? The Warriors were dishing out the praise after the game. Couple of examples (stolen from Reddit):

Kerr:

"They outplayed us all night. The only reason we won is because we have a lot more talent, obviously."

"Phoenix played really well, they played harder and smarter than us, but the talent eventually took over."

Klay:

"Give the Suns credit. They’re undermanned, but they played extremely hard. They’re well coached."


Kerr is spot on. It is what it is and it will take time. Perhaps we win one or two more games with a different coach. Perhaps we lose one or two more. I think it is folly to believe otherwise. I like the progress that I see in the players. Of course losing sucks and we can all grouse about it in our different ways. I just think that some are pounding on the wrong door.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Or, perhaps Ayton himself shows that he needs to be taken out for either a breather or for coaching reasons. We have no idea what is being discussed among the coaches and with Ayton. Because of the record of course it is all negative.
You know what I see as a positive? Teams actually have to play against the Suns this season. Did you see Kerr hand the clipboard to his players this season against the Suns? The Warriors were dishing out the praise after the game. Couple of examples (stolen from Reddit):

Kerr:

"They outplayed us all night. The only reason we won is because we have a lot more talent, obviously."

"Phoenix played really well, they played harder and smarter than us, but the talent eventually took over."

Klay:

"Give the Suns credit. They’re undermanned, but they played extremely hard. They’re well coached."


Kerr is spot on. It is what it is and it will take time. Perhaps we win one or two more games with a different coach. Perhaps we lose one or two more. I think it is folly to believe otherwise. I like the progress that I see in the players. Of course losing sucks and we can all grouse about it in our different ways. I just think that some are pounding on the wrong door.

No, we don't know what they talk about but we do know that Koko said that he would be regimenting their playing schedule. That was a few months ago so perhaps he's moved past it but it doesn't appear that way. He said that it was important for young players to have that kind of structure so I'd expect it to continue for at least this season.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Or, perhaps Ayton himself shows that he needs to be taken out for either a breather or for coaching reasons. We have no idea what is being discussed among the coaches and with Ayton. Because of the record of course it is all negative.
You know what I see as a positive? Teams actually have to play against the Suns this season. Did you see Kerr hand the clipboard to his players this season against the Suns? The Warriors were dishing out the praise after the game. Couple of examples (stolen from Reddit):

Kerr:

"They outplayed us all night. The only reason we won is because we have a lot more talent, obviously."

"Phoenix played really well, they played harder and smarter than us, but the talent eventually took over."

Klay:

"Give the Suns credit. They’re undermanned, but they played extremely hard. They’re well coached."


Kerr is spot on. It is what it is and it will take time. Perhaps we win one or two more games with a different coach. Perhaps we lose one or two more. I think it is folly to believe otherwise. I like the progress that I see in the players. Of course losing sucks and we can all grouse about it in our different ways. I just think that some are pounding on the wrong door.

If ever there was a reason for a coach to completely lose a team it would be our start to this season. However the constant effort they keep getting from these guys, even as the losing has gotten out of hand, is a very positive sign that the players are still bought in to what the coach is selling.

I think every person on this message board can agree that we are in desperate need of both a PG and a PF (like extremely desperate)(also any sort of solid veteran depth) and yet some on this board want to completely gloss over that when it comes to evaluating Igor. I don't get it.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

No, we don't know what they talk about but we do know that Koko said that he would be regimenting their playing schedule. That was a few months ago so perhaps he's moved past it but it doesn't appear that way. He said that it was important for young players to have that kind of structure so I'd expect it to continue for at least this season.

With Ayton especially this makes a lot of sense because he seems to tire relatively quickly. The most likely time for players to start making mistakes and developing bad habits is when they start getting tired. So giving Ayton 6-7 minutes stints immediately followed by 4-5 minutes of rest allows him to have good energy for most of his minutes on the floor. Even with the minutes being doled out this way he is still getting north of 30 minutes almost every night.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

I did see Ayton call to the sideline for a breather around the second quarter, so I will accept an arguement there even though that didnt seem to be the case in the third and fourth as his minutes were low.

What there is still no argument for was Tyler Johnson logging that many minutes in the end of the game given his circumstance and how bad he played earlier in the game.

 

[Mainstreet]

What there is still no argument for was Tyler Johnson logging that many minutes in the end of the game given his circumstance and how bad he played earlier in the game.

I think Kokoskov was trying to get Tyler up to speed and hoping he might be a temporary fix at point guard.

The Suns need a veteran next to Booker that plays some defense.

 

[1Sun]

If ever there was a reason for a coach to completely lose a team it would be our start to this season. However the constant effort they keep getting from these guys, even as the losing has gotten out of hand, is a very positive sign that the players are still bought in to what the coach is selling.

I think every person on this message board can agree that we are in desperate need of both a PG and a PF (like extremely desperate)(also any sort of solid veteran depth) and yet some on this board want to completely gloss over that when it comes to evaluating Igor. I don't get it.

We were just as desperate for those positions last year, had less talent overall last year, and had less depth last year, and yet the players developed and improved more, and the team made better progress, under Triano last year than under Kokoskov this year.

 

[1Sun]

I think Kokoskov was trying to get Tyler up to speed and hoping he might be a temporary fix at point guard.

The Suns need a veteran next to Booker that plays some defense.

Indeed. But that player must not be a black hole on offense who does nothing but chuck up bricks from long distance, especially if he has lapses on defense at the worst times anyway.

 

[Proximo]

I did see Ayton call to the sideline for a breather around the second quarter, so I will accept an arguement there even though that didnt seem to be the case in the third and fourth as his minutes were low.

What there is still no argument for was Tyler Johnson logging that many minutes in the end of the game given his circumstance and how bad he played earlier in the game.

I completely disagree. The reasoning is simple we know based on his stats this season he is easily better than okobo or Crawford. They also both played horrible, there is no reason to get on Igor for that at all.

 

[1Sun]

I completely disagree. The reasoning is simple we know based on his stats this season he is easily better than okobo or Crawford. They also both played horrible, there is no reason to get on Igor for that at all.

Except that Okobo was playing better than Johnson in that game...

 

[1tinsoldier]

Except that Okobo was playing better than Johnson in that game...

exactly!

Tyler's season stats with another team is not proof that he's better for us than Okobo
but if anyone wants to defend Igor's decision by stats last game
Okobo's stats were BETTER

 

[1tinsoldier]

What about the injury he just returned from?

Where is Booker? How many games has he played in a row this season? You want to know why he's resting, ask the trainers on the team about his back, hamstring, hand, and ankle.

Ayton is in his 4th game back after missing 6 due to an ankle injury. Did everyone forget we didn't have Ayton for over 2 weeks?

and yet, the very next game, iron-man Booker returns from his 4th injury of the season and Igor plays him all 12 first quarter minutes!

We didn't beat the two time defending champs that start 5 All-Stars and because of that, Igor should be fired.

do you read what you write?

 

[Hoop Head]

and yet, the very next game, iron-man Booker returns from his 4th injury of the season and Igor plays him all 12 first quarter minutes!



do you read what you write?

And Booker is out with an injury AGAIN, I wonder why that is? Could it have something to do with playing entire quarters?

I already know you don't think about what you write or you wouldn't contradict yourself constantly.


Seriously, what point are you trying to make right now? Other than trying to pick a fight with me I don't see the purpose of your post.

 

[1tinsoldier]

I'm not excusing anything, this roster sucks

excusing Igor and blaming the roster is an excuse?

and the team wasn't going to win a lot of games this year regardless of who coached them.

really?

The key this year was player development because they lacked players with enough skill to truly compete for anything.

no playoff run, but you and everyone here had much higher expectations of this roster when the season began

we already know those 2 can only carry a team of youngsters and misfits to 20 wins.

see prior comment

Igor's job is to teach our young players and have them ready to contribute next year

again. and the excuses mount

The continuity should help this team in the long run.

the new go-to term for the silencers -- "continuity"
like the "continuity" did wonders for Canaan

Is Sarver not enough of a scapegoat that we have to blame Igor also?

and now the boo-hoo for Sarver

sorry, but the Suns are currently down by 25 to the Kings (no fault of igor) so i'm reading old posts i wouldn't normally read at the same time

 

[1tinsoldier]

And Booker is out with an injury AGAIN, I wonder why that is? Could it have something to do with playing entire quarters?

I already know you don't think about what you write or you wouldn't contradict yourself constantly.


Seriously, what point are you trying to make right now?

that is my point -- we've already established that Booker is injury prone yet Igor keeps pushing him to the limit, while that was Ayton's first injury and yet Igor consistently pulls him for alleged "continuity" sake, even when he's hot and regardless of the "flow of the game"

 

[Hoop Head]

excusing Igor because the roster sucks is not an excuse?

really?

no playoff run, be you and everyone here had much higher expectations of this roster when the season began

see prior comment

again. and the excuses mount

the new go-to term for the silencers -- "continuity"
like the "continuity" did wonders for Canaan

and now the boo-hoo for Sarver

sorry, but the Suns are currently down by 25 to the Kings (no fault of igor) so i'm reading old posts i wouldn't normally read at the same time

You took all the time to separate my post for you to say nothing other than I'm a "silencer"? Ok. Keep on trolling.