In which I disagree with Football Outsiders on Veldheer, Cooper

[kerouac9]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/four-downs/2015/four-downs-nfc-west-0

Biggest Post-Draft Weakness: Offensive Line

I think that to a certain extent Verhei is trolling us. But I'll be interested in reading the chapter when the FO Annual comes out.

My opinion remains that Veldheer played at a near pro-bowl level last year and that Cooper looked like he belonged in a clown car. I don't really get what the game charters were seeing. It's worth remembering also that Veldheer maybe played the most downs against top pass rushers than any other OT in the NFL.

We'll see. If Veldheer really is just an average OT, then he's living up to his contract, not out-performing it. If Iupati doesn't return to Pro Bowl form, he'll be wildly overpaid.

 

[oaken1]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/four-downs/2015/four-downs-nfc-west-0



I think that to a certain extent Verhei is trolling us. But I'll be interested in reading the chapter when the FO Annual comes out.

My opinion remains that Veldheer played at a near pro-bowl level last year and that Cooper looked like he belonged in a clown car. I don't really get what the game charters were seeing. It's worth remembering also that Veldheer maybe played the most downs against top pass rushers than any other OT in the NFL.

We'll see. If Veldheer really is just an average OT, then he's living up to his contract, not out-performing it. If Iupati doesn't return to Pro Bowl form, he'll be wildly overpaid.

Last season was JV's best as a LT....if Hump is all they are saying he should be perhaps the plan is to put Hump at LT and move JV to RT at some point.

 

[juza76]

did he allow just a sack?
considering he played against best pass rushers in the league,lebeling him an average OT indicate he watch football with the screen switched off

 

[Russ Smith]

I guess it depends how they determine what a blown block is. Maybe Cooper is a guy who when he screws up, he REALLY screws up, but he doesn't do that often. So a bunch of mediocre blocks are not blown blocks.

Where Iupati and Larsen don't make the fall on the ground glaringly bad stuff very often, but just flat miss blocks, not mediocre just miss more often.

Hard to say. We clearly ran better last year when Cooper was playing, was that because of him or in spite of him I have no idea. But it does make you wonder if the outcome of the plays is why they had him rated higher.

 

[Goldfield]

Don't agree with the article. On paper we have upgraded both guard positions(assuming Cooper is an upgrade over last year's RG) and drafted an athletic OT in the first round who isn't expected to start right away.

No sure how much more we could of done to upgrade.

 

[gmabel830]

I guess it depends how they determine what a blown block is. Maybe Cooper is a guy who when he screws up, he REALLY screws up, but he doesn't do that often. So a bunch of mediocre blocks are not blown blocks.

Where Iupati and Larsen don't make the fall on the ground glaringly bad stuff very often, but just flat miss blocks, not mediocre just miss more often.

Hard to say. We clearly ran better last year when Cooper was playing, was that because of him or in spite of him I have no idea. But it does make you wonder if the outcome of the plays is why they had him rated higher.

Either that or blocking someone and getting thrown on your ass while doing so doesn't count as a blown block.

 

[BigRedRage]

I can't help but to lol at people mentioning hump at Lt and veldheer at rt

 

[Goldfield]

I can't help but to lol at people mentioning hump at Lt and veldheer at rt

Agree... maybe in 4 years if Veld slows some.

 

[football karma]

I came up through the finance function at work-- and I had an old boss who used to say "don't follow your analysis right out the window". It was his way of saying to pick your head up from the spreadsheet and make sure the figures match what you are seeing in the business

Sometimes I think FO fails to pick its head up

 

[Mainstreet]

Don't agree with the article. On paper we have upgraded both guard positions(assuming Cooper is an upgrade over last year's RG) and drafted an athletic OT in the first round who isn't expected to start right away.

No sure how much more we could of done to upgrade.

These are my sentiments as well.

 

[Cardiac]

I came up through the finance function at work-- and I had an old boss who used to say "don't follow your analysis right out the window". It was his way of saying to pick your head up from the spreadsheet and make sure the figures match what you are seeing in the business

Sometimes I think FO fails to pick its head up

I really like this analogy and agree.

 

[Darkside]

Was an interesting read, thanks for sharing.

Hard to reconcile those #s with what I saw on the field though. I have to believe a blown block is when a linemen just totally whiffs and misses his assignment completely without even getting a piece of the pass rusher.

With Veldheer it doesn't surprise me all that much, given that he had little help all year and went up against the best pass rushers in football. Also explains Coopers positive grade since he was pulling and letting guys go by him--he has no specific assignment once in space other than to occupy the nearest LB/safety/etc.

None of which takes into account for bad technique. Bad technique is worse. With bad technique you can consistently get a piece of the guy, but if your leverage is wrong or your kickout sucks you will consistently ride a dudes inside shoulder while giving up constant pressure or sacks.

Without giving the metrics used in these grades it's impossible to judge what constitutes a blown block. Simply engaging a guy isn't enough. There's tons of dudes who engage and get destroyed every time. There's also no accounting for dline or lb stunts, where it's difficult to decide who Veldheer's man is. Because it's not the guy assigned to him presnap. That's all figured out in film room and Veldheer has to make split second decisions on whom he's going to pick up.

So meh.

 

[oaken1]

I can't help but to lol at people mentioning hump at Lt and veldheer at rt

I don't see it either...just trying to justify all this stuff we have been hearing about Hump being a LT....why draft a LT if you already have a good young one?

 

[CFLredzoned]

What an absolute joke. Since when is blown block percentage the one and only factor that hands down determines an offensive lineman's worth? Sure, it's one thing to look at. But that's it. Just one small piece of the puzzle.

At least somebody appreicates JV. I normally wouldn't link to a Bleacher Report slideshow, but this one seems well thought out:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2319880-br-nfl-1000-top-35-left-tackles/page/31

#6. Jared Veldheer, Arizona Cardinals

Pass Block - 43/50
A change of venue was a good thing for Jared Veldheer (6’8”, 321 lbs, five seasons) in 2014 as he settled into his first year with the Arizona Cardinals. In Bruce Arians’ offense, Veldheer quickly became one of the NFL’s best pass protectors. On the year, he allowed just one sack and four quarterback hits—remarkable when you consider the pass-heavy offense he played in. Veldheer is long-armed, and while he’s not an elite mover, he anticipates pass-rushers well and has a deadly punch. He can also slide and shuffle his feet well enough to be a nuisance for speed-rushers. Improved balance and a healthy season saw Veldheer improve from a No. 25 overall ranking last season.

Run Block - 39/45
The triceps injury that limited Veldheer in 2013 cleared up this year, and that showed in his ability to drive and redirect defenders in the run game. He’s a natural athlete with good upper- and lower-body strength—something that shows in his aggressive style in the run game. He can get too aggressive at times, but largely he was consistent in getting to the second level and outside the box to reach defenders on outside runs.

Starter - 5/5
Veldheer wasn’t a marquee free-agent signing, but his immediate impact on the Arizona offense was huge. He filled a void in the offensive line that existed in each of the previous three seasons the NFL 1000 series existed. His impact and production warrant a very high ranking.

Overall - 87/100

 

[ajcardfan]

After what we have endured at LT ever since Luis Sharpe, Veldheer has been a godsend. I mean, seriously, think of how long we have struggled to lock that super important position down. We've wound up doing nothing more than band-aiding it and looking for the next answer. I mean, Mike Gandy probably did as well as anyone at LT from Sharpe to Veldheer and there was never a question that he was just mediocre.

If Veldheer can stay healthy, we are set at LT for years.

 

[Jetstream Green]

After what we have endured at LT ever since Luis Sharpe, Veldheer has been a godsend. I mean, seriously, think of how long we have struggled to lock that super important position down. We've wound up doing nothing more than band-aiding it and looking for the next answer. I mean, Mike Gandy probably did as well as anyone at LT from Sharpe to Veldheer and there was never a question that he was just mediocre.

If Veldheer can stay healthy, we are set at LT for years.

Lomas Brown was better than that Gandy guy

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I don't need OL stats to show me who played well and who didn't. Veldheer was excellent and Cooper was a joke. I thought Massie played very well too. The interior OL was the weakness and at least they have tried to address that in the off-season.

As for Humprhies, he wasn't drafted to be a long term RT. If he pans out, he'll be the LT in about year 2 or 3 and Veldheer will either be the RT or on another team.

 

[82CardsGrad]

After what we have endured at LT ever since Luis Sharpe, Veldheer has been a godsend. I mean, seriously, think of how long we have struggled to lock that super important position down. We've wound up doing nothing more than band-aiding it and looking for the next answer. I mean, Mike Gandy probably did as well as anyone at LT from Sharpe to Veldheer and there was never a question that he was just mediocre.

If Veldheer can stay healthy, we are set at LT for years.

This!! [emoji106]

 

[Goldfield]

Thought Gandy should of been brought back he played very well for us.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Meh...

Stats are for Baseball nerds!

 

[HotSauce]

My opinion?
Veldheer is good. Cooper is OK. Iupati is vastly overrated. Humphries is also overrated and will probably prove to be another draft mistake.

But, in the end, the OLine has been upgraded significantly.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Just plain silly really. Biggest post draft weakness is the OL?

"You know nothing Jon Snow!"... Had to get my Game of Thrones reference in there!

So many low hanging fruits for these guys to pick for biggest post draft weakness... Tight End, Pass Rusher, Running Back and they go with OL???


Clearly these hacks don't watch Cardinals games very often.

 

[Redneck Voodoo]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/four-downs/2015/four-downs-nfc-west-0



I think that to a certain extent Verhei is trolling us. But I'll be interested in reading the chapter when the FO Annual comes out.

My opinion remains that Veldheer played at a near pro-bowl level last year and that Cooper looked like he belonged in a clown car. I don't really get what the game charters were seeing. It's worth remembering also that Veldheer maybe played the most downs against top pass rushers than any other OT in the NFL.

We'll see. If Veldheer really is just an average OT, then he's living up to his contract, not out-performing it. If Iupati doesn't return to Pro Bowl form, he'll be wildly overpaid.

You can only get ONE Cooper in a clown car; therefore, not clown-car material.

 

[kerouac9]

Was an interesting read, thanks for sharing.

Hard to reconcile those #s with what I saw on the field though. I have to believe a blown block is when a linemen just totally whiffs and misses his assignment completely without even getting a piece of the pass rusher.

With Veldheer it doesn't surprise me all that much, given that he had little help all year and went up against the best pass rushers in football. Also explains Coopers positive grade since he was pulling and letting guys go by him--he has no specific assignment once in space other than to occupy the nearest LB/safety/etc.

None of which takes into account for bad technique. Bad technique is worse. With bad technique you can consistently get a piece of the guy, but if your leverage is wrong or your kickout sucks you will consistently ride a dudes inside shoulder while giving up constant pressure or sacks.

Without giving the metrics used in these grades it's impossible to judge what constitutes a blown block. Simply engaging a guy isn't enough. There's tons of dudes who engage and get destroyed every time. There's also no accounting for dline or lb stunts, where it's difficult to decide who Veldheer's man is. Because it's not the guy assigned to him presnap. That's all figured out in film room and Veldheer has to make split second decisions on whom he's going to pick up.

So meh.

No. I can't point anywhere online for where this is, but this is from the Statistical Appendix from the FO Almanac:

Finally, there are three numbers for blown blocks in 2013.

• Blown blocks leading directly to sacks
• All blown blocks on pass plays, not only including those that lead to sacks but also those that lead to hurries, hits, or offensive holding penalties
• All blown blocks on run plays; generally this means plays where the running back is tackled for a loss or no gain, but it also includes a handful of plays where the running back would have been tackled for a loss if not for a broken tackle, as well as offensive holding penalties on running plays

I think STATS, Inc only credited Veldheer with 2 sacks for the entire year last year. I just don't know, unless Veldheer wasn't as effective on run plays or something. The Cards weren't very effective running the ball period, so it's possible that on runs to the left the charters just sort of blamed Veldheer.

It's worth remembering (and it's implied in the quote above) that FO's metrics are results-based, meaning that they don't credit good running plays or blocking for the OL. They'll look back at a situation where there was a failure and ascribe some blame.

I'll be interested in seeing what the whole breakdown is when the full annual comes out sometime in July.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

After what we have endured at LT ever since Luis Sharpe, Veldheer has been a godsend. I mean, seriously, think of how long we have struggled to lock that super important position down. We've wound up doing nothing more than band-aiding it and looking for the next answer. I mean, Mike Gandy probably did as well as anyone at LT from Sharpe to Veldheer

Agree with your statement, the exception was Lomas Brown. He played very well, and we let him go. Mistake.