Inevitable

Harry

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Despite and slings and arrows I tried all year to explain where this was headed. You can’t just look at points to determine if a team is well coached. You have to look at fundamentals. That is because sooner or later sloppy fundamentals will doom your team. Add in poor game management and you have a formula for absolute failure.
 

Russ Smith

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Under a minute to go and 2 back to back plays over the middle with no timeouts is ridiculous.


I actually don't get why people are blasting those plays? We gained 13 yards in 22 seconds we got lucky on the 49er getting injured to stop the clock but then they could have easily called delay on Warner the LB who picked the ball up after Fitz stuck it down and flipped back several yards, you could see the ref warn him for doing it but then they stopped the clock due to the injury. The 9 yards to Fitz and a spike gets us to the 40 yard line with 43 seconds left, that's plenty of time.

My problem is the 3rd play(4th counting the spike) the 4 yard dumpoff to Kirk because that led to us snapping the next play at 26 seconds and Kyler at that point felt he had to take a shot downfield and picked the wrong guy, Johnson was open he went for Kirk. Then the 4th down play and it's ballgame.

IMO either Kliff or Kyler forgot that the spike play counts as down, so the 2nd down and 10 play can't go that short it has to go more downfield so you don't have to worry about the first down.
 

Zeem_Freeze

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More riveting content from the ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer.

Where was “this” going? Almost to the playoffs when we had the #1 pick two short years ago? Thanks for warning us that we’re trending up.

Love, the ASFN Advisor and Senior BS Regulator.
 

Stout

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More riveting content from the ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer.

Where was “this” going? Almost to the playoffs when we had the #1 pick two short years ago? Thanks for warning us that we’re trending up.

Love, the ASFN Advisor and Senior BS Regulator.

Yeah, Harry's an industry professional who knows what he's talking about. That doesn't automatically make him right, or mean everyone has to agree with all of his takes, but...you're a fan who pointed to a 5-win season as immediately turning things around.
 

ASUCHRIS

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It's nice to know that no matter how badly our team is imploding, there will always be apologists.

I don't think I've ever watched a more frustrating Cardinals team - even when they win, it's exasperating. They make the same mistakes over and over, and their effort is incredibly inconsistent.

We're wasting a pro bowl QB and arguably the best WR in football because MB couldn't dump his clown GM and coach bro.

The team has made it very clear they don't respect Kliff, and won't fight for him. How does anyone seriously expect us to compete with CLEARLY the worst coaching staff in the division?

Running it back again with the same leadership would be insanity. We don't win because of KK, we win in spite of him.
 

BritCard

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More riveting content from the ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer.

Where was “this” going? Almost to the playoffs when we had the #1 pick two short years ago? Thanks for warning us that we’re trending up.

Love, the ASFN Advisor and Senior BS Regulator.

I should hope we have trended up. We added a #1 QB last year, new staff, new starting RB, several new receivers and got 2.5 more wins. What you would expect by adding that talent to a weak roster.

Then we added Nuk. Several defensive upgrades and got 2.5 more wins. Again, the bare minimum you should really expect for the talent updrade.

So what's Kliff added?

Do we need to sign CMC and Aaron Donald to get more wins? Because certainly Kliff isn't elevating anybody.
 

cardpa

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It's nice to know that no matter how badly our team is imploding, there will always be apologists.

I don't think I've ever watched a more frustrating Cardinals team - even when they win, it's exasperating. They make the same mistakes over and over, and their effort is incredibly inconsistent.

We're wasting a pro bowl QB and arguably the best WR in football because MB couldn't dump his clown GM and coach bro.

The team has made it very clear they don't respect Kliff, and won't fight for him. How does anyone seriously expect us to compete with CLEARLY the worst coaching staff in the division?

Running it back again with the same leadership would be insanity. We don't win because of KK, we win in spite of him.

This actually may be more true than we would like to admit. Think about the talent level on this team. It's certainly worlds better than 2018.
 

BritCard

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One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet (although I haven't read all) . The team was horrible, especially on offense, but Kliff took us out of the game with dumb decisions.

Why go for the 4th and 2 on your own 40 with 9 minutes left only down 2? It was one of the dumbest calls all year. They scored instantly and put us down 8. Which meant the pressure was on Kyler on the next drive and inadvertently led to him forcing the INT.

If he punts there we can pin the Niners back, get the ball back and take the pressure off the next drive with the option to kick a FG.

That decision killed the game. It was low odds and completely unnecessary.
 

cardpa

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One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet (although I haven't read all) . The team was horrible, especially on offense, but Kliff took us out of the game with dumb decisions.

Why go for the 4th and 2 on your own 40 with 9 minutes left only down 2? It was one of the dumbest calls all year. They scored instantly and put us down 8. Which meant the pressure was on Kyler on the next drive and inadvertently led to him forcing the INT.

If he punts there we can pin the Niners back, get the ball back and take the pressure off the next drive with the option to kick a FG.

That decision killed the game. It was low odds and completely unnecessary.

That decision left me SMH.
 

Bkbobo

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One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet (although I haven't read all) . The team was horrible, especially on offense, but Kliff took us out of the game with dumb decisions.

Why go for the 4th and 2 on your own 40 with 9 minutes left only down 2? It was one of the dumbest calls all year. They scored instantly and put us down 8. Which meant the pressure was on Kyler on the next drive and inadvertently led to him forcing the INT.

If he punts there we can pin the Niners back, get the ball back and take the pressure off the next drive with the option to kick a FG.

That decision killed the game. It was low odds and completely unnecessary.

This right here. Our Defense has been playing decent, but Kliff put them in a compromising position and we paid the price.
 

Zeem_Freeze

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I should hope we have trended up. We added a #1 QB last year, new staff, new starting RB, several new receivers and got 2.5 more wins. What you would expect by adding that talent to a weak roster.

Then we added Nuk. Several defensive upgrades and got 2.5 more wins. Again, the bare minimum you should really expect for the talent updrade.

So what's Kliff added?

Do we need to sign CMC and Aaron Donald to get more wins? Because certainly Kliff isn't elevating anybody.
Hmm. I must’ve missed the part where the Cardinals are the only team drafting players or signing free agents... do you really believe the Cardinals operate in a vacuum?
 

Zeem_Freeze

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Yeah, Harry's an industry professional who knows what he's talking about. That doesn't automatically make him right, or mean everyone has to agree with all of his takes, but...you're a fan who pointed to a 5-win season as immediately turning things around.
You and Harry are fans who pointed to 3 wins, 5 wins, 8 or 9 wins as no progress at all and grounds for firing a coach and GM.

that train of thought is disconnected from logic and that will be proven by the decision to retain Keim/Kingsbury. That correct decision will be made by the professionals still in the industry, not the “professionals” relegated to a fan board
 

iLLmatiC

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Despite and slings and arrows I tried all year to explain where this was headed. You can’t just look at points to determine if a team is well coached. You have to look at fundamentals. That is because sooner or later sloppy fundamentals will doom your team. Add in poor game management and you have a formula for absolute failure.

You called us contenders after game 1 against the niners lol.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet (although I haven't read all) . The team was horrible, especially on offense, but Kliff took us out of the game with dumb decisions.

Why go for the 4th and 2 on your own 40 with 9 minutes left only down 2? It was one of the dumbest calls all year. They scored instantly and put us down 8. Which meant the pressure was on Kyler on the next drive and inadvertently led to him forcing the INT.

If he punts there we can pin the Niners back, get the ball back and take the pressure off the next drive with the option to kick a FG.

That decision killed the game. It was low odds and completely unnecessary.
I actually called kk out in game thread on this. You can’t consistently go for it repeatedly on 4th on your end of the field and not expect to get burned. There’s a reason what we saw yesterday from kk is an anomaly in the league. The risk/reward isn’t in your favor if you keep tempting fate.
 
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Harry

Harry

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More riveting content from the ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer.

Where was “this” going? Almost to the playoffs when we had the #1 pick two short years ago? Thanks for warning us that we’re trending up.

Love, the ASFN Advisor and Senior BS Regulator.

I didn’t pick the title, feel free to start a campaign to dump it.

As to the win improvement, it is good but it’s been accomplished against a weak schedule in a system that was designed to keep weak teams from losing fans. I recognize some teams have shown no improvement against such a schedule. I did think after week 1 this was a playoff team (considering the added a spot) and they almost were. However, it became obvious week to week that this team was playing below its potential. Why?

Certainly they were hurt by injuries, but so were other teams who didn’t get derailed. Coaching was the number one issue, in the form of poor player development (K1), poor play design (supposed to be a KK strength) and atrocious game management.

Murray has potential. I would concede he has not been given the best surrounding cast. That said, the Niners game showed that sooner or later sloppy fundamentals catch up with you. They caught up with Murray. I’ve said he is the best running QB I’ve seen. Is he a leader of men? I haven’t seen that. Does he exhibited better mechanics now than last year? Occasionally, but not consistently. I have also said he can be an outstanding QB, but only if he wants to correct his deficiencies. Yes he’ll likely throw for 4K yards, but he’s been erratic when the game is on the line, especially in the second half of this season.

As to poor play design, the NFL is a league of adjustments. You can ask several flash-in-the-pan coaches what happens when the league adjusts to your game if you don’t adapt. Of course you’ll have to contact them in college, which is where they are, some as coordinators. How can you not see the second half of this season collapsed because this coach did not or could not adjust? The Niners DC ate Kingsbury’s offense alive. They were ready for everything except Murray’s exceptional running. What was creative and new? What had KK put in for this game? A weak Cowboy team just hung 41 points on this defense.

Finally game management was horrible. Penalties we’d seen too many times before. Wasted timeouts. Only 10 players sent out initially on a kickoff return. I could go on but it’s pointless. This is not a winning coach exhibiting poise and control.

As to the wins improvement, do you know any coach who wouldn’t heavily target Hopkins? How many games of this “improvement” are due just to his addition. They certainly lose the Bills game without him. They lose the Eagles game. The first Niners game? How many others? Take those away and you’re right back to about last year. Give Keim the credit for those, not some well designed offense. How many of his key catches weren’t heavily contested? I’m not saying there wasn’t improvement, I’m saying you’re giving credit where it’s not been earned. Beyond Hopkins what other part of the offense was better; the other receivers? Was the running game better? You might have said Arnold (another Keim pickup) before he self-distrusted this game. Only Murray’s running improved and I believe no coach would have ignored Murray’s ability to run. What can you clearly say Kingsbury added? I say at best he gave with one hand and took away with the other. IMO those who want to champion his improvement are ignoring the team’s play in the second half. This team underperformed and the buck stops at Kingsbury’s desk. He didn’t significantly improve as a college coach. Why would he here? He has never been a winner and you don’t start that trend in the NFL.
 

Chopper0080

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One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet (although I haven't read all) . The team was horrible, especially on offense, but Kliff took us out of the game with dumb decisions.

Why go for the 4th and 2 on your own 40 with 9 minutes left only down 2? It was one of the dumbest calls all year. They scored instantly and put us down 8. Which meant the pressure was on Kyler on the next drive and inadvertently led to him forcing the INT.

If he punts there we can pin the Niners back, get the ball back and take the pressure off the next drive with the option to kick a FG.

That decision killed the game. It was low odds and completely unnecessary.
REally? What part of Jeff Wilson did you think we were stopping?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I didn’t pick the title, feel free to start a campaign to dump it.

As to the win improvement, it is good but it’s been accomplished against a weak schedule in a system that was designed to keep weak teams from losing fans. I recognize some teams have shown no improvement against such a schedule. I did think after week 1 this was a playoff team (considering the added a spot) and they almost were. However, it became obvious week to week that this team was playing below its potential. Why?

Certainly they were hurt by injuries, but so were other teams who didn’t get derailed. Coaching was the number one issue, in the form of poor player development (K1), poor play design (supposed to be a KK strength) and atrocious game management.

Murray has potential. I would concede he has not been given the best surrounding cast. That said, the Niners game showed that sooner or later sloppy fundamentals catch up with you. They caught up with Murray. I’ve said he is the best running QB I’ve seen. Is he a leader of men? I haven’t seen that. Does he exhibited better mechanics now than last year? Occasionally, but not consistently. I have also said he can be an outstanding QB, but only if he wants to correct his deficiencies. Yes he’ll likely throw for 4K yards, but he’s been erratic when the game is on the line, especially in the second half of this season.

As to poor play design, the NFL is a league of adjustments. You can ask several flash-in-the-pan coaches what happens when the league adjusts to your game if you don’t adapt. Of course you’ll have to contact them in college, which is where they are, some as coordinators. How can you not see the second half of this season collapsed because this coach did not or could not adjust? The Niners DC ate Kingsbury’s offense alive. They were ready for everything except Murray’s exceptional running. What was creative and new? What had KK put in for this game? A weak Cowboy team just hung 41 points on this defense.

Finally game management was horrible. Penalties we’d seen too many times before. Wasted timeouts. Only 10 players sent out initially on a kickoff return. I could go on but it’s pointless. This is not a winning coach exhibiting poise and control.

As to the wins improvement, do you know any coach who wouldn’t heavily target Hopkins? How many games of this “improvement” are due just to his addition. They certainly lose the Bills game without him. They lose the Eagles game. The first Niners game? How many others? Take those away and you’re right back to about last year. Give Keim the credit for those, not some well designed offense. How many of his key catches weren’t heavily contested? I’m not saying there wasn’t improvement, I’m saying you’re giving credit where it’s not been earned. Beyond Hopkins what other part of the offense was better; the other receivers? Was the running game better? You might have said Arnold (another Keim pickup) before he self-distrusted this game. Only Murray’s running improved and I believe no coach would have ignored Murray’s ability to run. What can you clearly say Kingsbury added? I say at best he gave with one hand and took away with the other. IMO those who want to champion his improvement are ignoring the team’s play in the second half. This team underperformed and the buck stops at Kingsbury’s desk. He didn’t significantly improve as a college coach. Why would he here? He has never been a winner and you don’t start that trend in the NFL.
This. All of this. ALL. OF. THIS.
 

Zeem_Freeze

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I didn’t pick the title, feel free to start a campaign to dump it.

As to the win improvement, it is good but it’s been accomplished against a weak schedule in a system that was designed to keep weak teams from losing fans. I recognize some teams have shown no improvement against such a schedule. I did think after week 1 this was a playoff team (considering the added a spot) and they almost were. However, it became obvious week to week that this team was playing below its potential. Why?

Certainly they were hurt by injuries, but so were other teams who didn’t get derailed. Coaching was the number one issue, in the form of poor player development (K1), poor play design (supposed to be a KK strength) and atrocious game management.

Murray has potential. I would concede he has not been given the best surrounding cast. That said, the Niners game showed that sooner or later sloppy fundamentals catch up with you. They caught up with Murray. I’ve said he is the best running QB I’ve seen. Is he a leader of men? I haven’t seen that. Does he exhibited better mechanics now than last year? Occasionally, but not consistently. I have also said he can be an outstanding QB, but only if he wants to correct his deficiencies. Yes he’ll likely throw for 4K yards, but he’s been erratic when the game is on the line, especially in the second half of this season.

As to poor play design, the NFL is a league of adjustments. You can ask several flash-in-the-pan coaches what happens when the league adjusts to your game if you don’t adapt. Of course you’ll have to contact them in college, which is where they are, some as coordinators. How can you not see the second half of this season collapsed because this coach did not or could not adjust? The Niners DC ate Kingsbury’s offense alive. They were ready for everything except Murray’s exceptional running. What was creative and new? What had KK put in for this game? A weak Cowboy team just hung 41 points on this defense.

Finally game management was horrible. Penalties we’d seen too many times before. Wasted timeouts. Only 10 players sent out initially on a kickoff return. I could go on but it’s pointless. This is not a winning coach exhibiting poise and control.

As to the wins improvement, do you know any coach who wouldn’t heavily target Hopkins? How many games of this “improvement” are due just to his addition. They certainly lose the Bills game without him. They lose the Eagles game. The first Niners game? How many others? Take those away and you’re right back to about last year. Give Keim the credit for those, not some well designed offense. How many of his key catches weren’t heavily contested? I’m not saying there wasn’t improvement, I’m saying you’re giving credit where it’s not been earned. Beyond Hopkins what other part of the offense was better; the other receivers? Was the running game better? You might have said Arnold (another Keim pickup) before he self-distrusted this game. Only Murray’s running improved and I believe no coach would have ignored Murray’s ability to run. What can you clearly say Kingsbury added? I say at best he gave with one hand and took away with the other. IMO those who want to champion his improvement are ignoring the team’s play in the second half. This team underperformed and the buck stops at Kingsbury’s desk. He didn’t significantly improve as a college coach. Why would he here? He has never been a winner and you don’t start that trend in the NFL.
we dont have much to discuss because we disagree on 2 of your 3 main points.

I believe K1 has been developed well by Kliff and that should continue.
I believe the play designs were far from poor. To me, they were an obvious +
Game management certainly needs work. I agree with you there.

Your take about K1's development is so so so wrong. Your posts about him are dripping with salt and I'm not sure why you have such a personal vendetta against K1 and KK. Its clear your posts are laden with emotion.

What are you going to do over the next decade as K1 leads our team to playoff wins and maybe a superbowl? wallow in misery?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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we dont have much to discuss because we disagree on 2 of your 3 main points.

I believe K1 has been developed well by Kliff and that should continue.
I believe the play designs were far from poor. To me, they were an obvious +

Game management certainly needs work. I agree with you there.

Your take about K1's development is so so so wrong. Your posts about him are dripping with salt and I'm not sure why you have such a personal vendetta against K1 and KK. Its clear your posts are laden with emotion.

What are you going to do over the next decade as K1 leads our team to playoff wins and maybe a superbowl? wallow in misery?
You’re in a quickly dwindling minority on these two points. While kyler has had an improved season it doesn’t seem to be in his mechanics. And kliffs playcalling may be worst I’ve seen in az other than McCoy.
 

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I didn’t pick the title, feel free to start a campaign to dump it.

As to the win improvement, it is good but it’s been accomplished against a weak schedule in a system that was designed to keep weak teams from losing fans. I recognize some teams have shown no improvement against such a schedule. I did think after week 1 this was a playoff team (considering the added a spot) and they almost were. However, it became obvious week to week that this team was playing below its potential. Why?

Certainly they were hurt by injuries, but so were other teams who didn’t get derailed. Coaching was the number one issue, in the form of poor player development (K1), poor play design (supposed to be a KK strength) and atrocious game management.

Murray has potential. I would concede he has not been given the best surrounding cast. That said, the Niners game showed that sooner or later sloppy fundamentals catch up with you. They caught up with Murray. I’ve said he is the best running QB I’ve seen. Is he a leader of men? I haven’t seen that. Does he exhibited better mechanics now than last year? Occasionally, but not consistently. I have also said he can be an outstanding QB, but only if he wants to correct his deficiencies. Yes he’ll likely throw for 4K yards, but he’s been erratic when the game is on the line, especially in the second half of this season.

As to poor play design, the NFL is a league of adjustments. You can ask several flash-in-the-pan coaches what happens when the league adjusts to your game if you don’t adapt. Of course you’ll have to contact them in college, which is where they are, some as coordinators. How can you not see the second half of this season collapsed because this coach did not or could not adjust? The Niners DC ate Kingsbury’s offense alive. They were ready for everything except Murray’s exceptional running. What was creative and new? What had KK put in for this game? A weak Cowboy team just hung 41 points on this defense.

Finally game management was horrible. Penalties we’d seen too many times before. Wasted timeouts. Only 10 players sent out initially on a kickoff return. I could go on but it’s pointless. This is not a winning coach exhibiting poise and control.

As to the wins improvement, do you know any coach who wouldn’t heavily target Hopkins? How many games of this “improvement” are due just to his addition. They certainly lose the Bills game without him. They lose the Eagles game. The first Niners game? How many others? Take those away and you’re right back to about last year. Give Keim the credit for those, not some well designed offense. How many of his key catches weren’t heavily contested? I’m not saying there wasn’t improvement, I’m saying you’re giving credit where it’s not been earned. Beyond Hopkins what other part of the offense was better; the other receivers? Was the running game better? You might have said Arnold (another Keim pickup) before he self-distrusted this game. Only Murray’s running improved and I believe no coach would have ignored Murray’s ability to run. What can you clearly say Kingsbury added? I say at best he gave with one hand and took away with the other. IMO those who want to champion his improvement are ignoring the team’s play in the second half. This team underperformed and the buck stops at Kingsbury’s desk. He didn’t significantly improve as a college coach. Why would he here? He has never been a winner and you don’t start that trend in the NFL.
Very well put Harry.

Agree with all of this.
 

BritCard

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I actually called kk out in game thread on this. You can’t consistently go for it repeatedly on 4th on your end of the field and not expect to get burned. There’s a reason what we saw yesterday from kk is an anomaly in the league. The risk/reward isn’t in your favor if you keep tempting fate.

I'm all for it in the right situation. Down 2 on your own 40 with 9 minutes left is nowhere near one of them.

I really didn't like the 2 point call either. That turned out to put us down 8 instead of 7 which added additional pressure. I just didn't see the advantage in it at that time.
 

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REally? What part of Jeff Wilson did you think we were stopping?

The same one we stopped on several other drives they didn't score.

The Niners had 11 drives and didn't score points on 8 of them. 2 due to missed FGs but also 5 punts and 1 fumble.

Odds were in our favour.
 

Zeem_Freeze

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You’re in a quickly dwindling minority on these two points. While kyler has had an improved season it doesn’t seem to be in his mechanics. And kliffs playcalling may be worst I’ve seen in az other than McCoy.
quickly dwindling minority?

I coulda sworn Kyler was in the National conversation for MVP at some point in year 2. How does that translate to “the majority of people” think Kyler is not developing well?

I know yesterday was a tough loss but sheesh, you guys gotta stop and smell the roses sometimes. We are getting better and it’s obvious.
 

Russ Smith

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One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet (although I haven't read all) . The team was horrible, especially on offense, but Kliff took us out of the game with dumb decisions.

Why go for the 4th and 2 on your own 40 with 9 minutes left only down 2? It was one of the dumbest calls all year. They scored instantly and put us down 8. Which meant the pressure was on Kyler on the next drive and inadvertently led to him forcing the INT.

If he punts there we can pin the Niners back, get the ball back and take the pressure off the next drive with the option to kick a FG.

That decision killed the game. It was low odds and completely unnecessary.


Worse it was the 35 not the 40. We can say well if the ball is complete but yeah 9 minutes left and the defense at that point was playing well. that was a kick in the nuts and the defense immediately folded and gave up 34 of the 35 yards on the first play.

As you said that contributed to the INT because it put more pressure on Kyler to get it in the endzone.

Just a terrible decision.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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quickly dwindling minority?

I coulda sworn Kyler was in the National conversation for MVP at some point in year 2. How does that translate to “the majority of people” think Kyler is not developing well?

I know yesterday was a tough loss but sheesh, you guys gotta stop and smell the roses sometimes. We are getting better and it’s obvious.
At least you acknowledge that the fact upon which you rely isn’t a current fact. There’s a reason for that. Regression. It’s fine to smell the roses when they are blooming, which most here did, but smelling them as they wilt seems rather daft.
 
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