Interesting illustration of how amazing Warner was last year

[Russ Smith]

I'm re-reading "The Blind Side" by Michael Lewis(wrote Moneyball). It's about the importance of Left tackles and how Bill Walsh made the passing game popular in the NFL and essentially made left tackles important(since blind side pass rushers destroyed passing games).

Anyhow on page 114 there's a blurb related to a guy named Ben Alamar who is now paid by NFL teams as a consultant, he is essentially doing for football what Bill James did for baseball with statistics. One of his clients was Tom Coughlin the Giants coach.

In 2004 the Cards beat the Giants and sacked Kurt Warner 6 times. Warner was getting sacked at an alarming rate and fumbling over and over and the NY media was crucifying Coughlin, the OL coach, and the OL for being incompetent and destroying the offense. But Coughlin had read enough of Alamar's work to have a different theory.

Alamar said from studying film 2.5 seconds to throw the ball is adequate, anything beyond 3 seconds was an eternity and invitation to get your QB killed. Coughlin watched the tape of the game against the Cards with a stopwatch and determined that on 30 of the 37 pass plays the Giants ran, Warner held the ball at LEAST 3.8 seconds. In other words he was holding the ball at least 50 percent longer than what was "safe" on virtually every pass play which of course was why he got sacked so much. After viewing the tape Coughlin benched Warner the next day for rookie Eli Manning.

Lots of people, including myself, thought that was it for Warner's career, he would never be able to get past that Mike Martz style of thinking that you hold the ball to let the WR open up downfield. Last year Warner was only sacked 26 times in 401 pass attempts, in 2004 he was sacked 39 times in only 277 pass attempts.

What that means is in 2004 Warner got sacked once every 7 pass attempts, last year it was once every 15. Which means at the age of 37, 4 years after most had written him off, Kurt Warner was able to do the unthinkable and completely change his style of play. It actually started the year before when he was 36 but it's pretty remarkable, you just don't see guys at that age change that radically.

I know I argued over and over that it was very unlikely what we saw at the end 2 years ago was going to carry over and that Kurt would be Kurt and hold the ball too long, but boy did he prove me wrong last year.

It'll be interesting to see if anything changes this year without Haley, ie was it Haley that got Kurt to see the light and get rid of the ball quickly, or was it Warner on his own figuring that out?

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

It's easy to get rid of the ball quickly when your WR's are open pretty much at all times.

I read Blind Side as well and it was a nice read. Oher is a great story.

 

[red desert]

I read Blind Side as well and it was a nice read. Oher is a great story.

Ditto.

Sean Tuoy's wife is a babe, too.

 

[jefftheshark]

Sean Tuoy's wife is a babe, too.

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JTS

 

[Russ Smith]

It's easy to get rid of the ball quickly when your WR's are open pretty much at all times.

I read Blind Side as well and it was a nice read. Oher is a great story.

agreed but the offense we ran last year was so different than the offense Kurt ran under Martz in terms of routes it's pretty remarkable. The idea that you can't teach an old dog a new trick was completely disproven last year.

I'm still mixed on Oher, it's a great story but I also have always wondered how much of it was Lewis bending over backwards to try and not emphasize how Oher actually qualified for college.

But great ending 23rd pick in the NFL draft and going to be a very wealthy man some day. It's a great story.

 

[conraddobler]

It'll be interesting to see if anything changes this year without Haley, ie was it Haley that got Kurt to see the light and get rid of the ball quickly, or was it Warner on his own figuring that out?

From the video's I watched of last year and even the year before, I think it's Whiz that is responsible for warner and the way he plays, just like he was very hard on Matt he was also demanding that Warner change his style.

Warner basically did faster than Matt did and won the job.

Whiz is the driving force behind that one IMO, Hailey I think had more to do with Fitz and the WR's than he did the QB's technique, Hailey also focused more on plays and strategy, Whiz seems to be the one who harps on the fundamentals, but that's just me.

Whiz for example demanded Matt change his footwork and messed him up for a whole season while he was awkward with it. I saw him just hound Warner during drills too about who to throw to and to get rid of the ball.

 

[moklerman]

Coughlin watched the tape of the game against the Cards with a stopwatch and determined that on 30 of the 37 pass plays the Giants ran, Warner held the ball at LEAST 3.8 seconds. In other words he was holding the ball at least 50 percent longer than what was "safe" on virtually every pass play which of course was why he got sacked so much.

Who's to believe? Michael Lewis(above) or Paul (Dr. Z) Zimmerman(below)?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/dr_z/11/17/drz.warner/index.html

Don't kill Kurt

Giants are in midst of an organizational breakdown, not a QB problem

Posted: Wednesday November 17, 2004 5:03PM; Updated: Wednesday November 17, 2004 5:18PM

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Giants QB Kurt Warner was sacked six times in a 17-14 loss to the Cardinals last Sunday.
AP


The Giants have let Kurt Warner take the fall for their own shortcomings. Last week's Arizona loss, which led to his benching, wasn't a breakdown at the quarterback position, it was an organizational breakdown.

The offensive coaches got outschemed by the Cardinals defensive staff, particularly in the late going, when New York had five chances to win the game in the fourth quarter. The personnel department took a hit when it became obvious that the guys who were supposed to be the pillars of the offensive line, the tackles, just weren't good enough. A younger, quicker quarterback might have been able to save himself with his legs, but not Warner, and they knew it.

They understood what they were getting when they signed him in June. A stopgap. A guy who could hold the fort until Eli Manning was ready. A guy who, for some reason, had lost his fastball, who fumbled a lot, probably from a finger that wasn't functioning properly, and someone who, possibly, had lost his nerve, although this was a very tough rap to hang on a proud athlete.

Through most of the season, Warner did better than people expected. His passes lacked velocity; he couldn't jam the ball into small openings, as he once could with the Rams, but they didn't want him to. Don't take chances, they told him. We can run the ball and we can play defense. Avoid interceptions at all costs.

Which he did. Through nine games he had thrown only four, on pace for a lower rate than he'd had in any of his glory years with the Rams. The flip side was that his TD passes totaled six. In his first year as a starter in St. Louis, he'd thrown 41. His sack total was horrendous. He'd become Mr. Safety First, and according to the coaching staff, he'd gotten to the point where he just couldn't pull the trigger, even when he'd had receivers open.
"Not just against the Cardinals, but all season long," a member of the Giants staff told me. "We could see it in our films, the guys who were open."

Then why didn't they bench him earlier? Maybe Manning was just too green, but now it's a matter of necessity. Maybe they were hoping that Warner suddenly would change.

Stories I read mentioned that Warner would hold the ball up to six seconds, which put unbearable pressure on the blockers. Pure nonsense, written by guys who don't use stopwatches. Think of Fran Tarkenton and his water-gnat scrambles, dart right, cut left, cut right again, and you might get up to six seconds.

Normally if the ball isn't out in a little over three seconds, the protection will start crumbling. I put a watch on each of the 30 passes Warner threw against Arizona, plus the six sacks. Most of his passes were under three seconds, a few under two, especially when the Giants were running their scripted plays on the first two series and driving for a TD each time. A few were in the low-threes. The longest was 3.52, when he had to scramble to his left and re-adjust.

I timed the sacks by cutting off my watch when he gave up on the play and bailed ... scrambled for what he could get ... and all but two were in the low-to-mid-three second range. The others were in the two's. That's right, that's how quickly the blockers were whipped. No quarterback could function under that kind of pressure.

After the Giants' script ran out, the Cardinals' defense took over. The Giants, either by scheme or foul-up, were leaving rushers unblocked. Then when they'd leave a tight end or running back in for more protection, the Cards would rush three, or only four, and catch New York using six to pick up those three or four, and then swarm the receivers with coverage. On one fourth-quarter pass, Warner nearly got Amani Toomer killed on a shallow crossing pattern into the teeth of the meat grinder.

Neither offensive tackle held up, because they are the wrong people for the job. Luke Petitgout on the left side, was a terrific right tackle a few years ago, a serious power blocker. I picked him on my all-pro team three years ago. Then he got switched to the left side. He's not a left tackle. Mike Giddings, the super-scout, has a rule -- "Never switch a blue," blue meaning highest quality. Petitgout got killed by the Bears' Alex Brown, close to the best DE in football, two weeks ago, and he struggled just as much against the Cards' Bert Berry, a big-time rusher, and other Cardinals pass rushers.

David Diehl on the right side was a rookie guard on a woeful O-line last season. As the Arizona game wore on, he began struggling, making mistakes. Lineman vs. lineman is like a heavyweight fight. Who's going to tire in the late rounds? Usually it's the offensive lineman, since the defender, lighter and quicker, has been rotating in and out of the game.

Sure, Kurt Warner has had problems, but let's not hang it all on him, OK?

 

[lauraw]

Interesting read!!

 

[Garthshort]

Interesting thread. Mao Tosi FC made a good point on how the receivers impact how long you have to hold on to the ball.

 

[john h]

From the video's I watched of last year and even the year before, I think it's Whiz that is responsible for warner and the way he plays, just like he was very hard on Matt he was also demanding that Warner change his style.

Warner basically did faster than Matt did and won the job.

Whiz is the driving force behind that one IMO, Hailey I think had more to do with Fitz and the WR's than he did the QB's technique, Hailey also focused more on plays and strategy, Whiz seems to be the one who harps on the fundamentals, but that's just me.

Whiz for example demanded Matt change his footwork and messed him up for a whole season while he was awkward with it. I saw him just hound Warner during drills too about who to throw to and to get rid of the ball.

Am I missing something here? Warner has always had a fast delivery in terms of mechanics. To get rid of the ball fast requires a fast read which cannot be taught and receivers to be open. The guy had the Greatest Show on Earth using the passing game as a running game with short passes to very good runners. His sacks likely came form receivers not getting open, running passing routes that were to long for the protection that was available to the QB. With his experience he is a hard QB to blitz. With good receivers who recognize when to cut off a long route he becomes double tough. His smarts make up a lot for his age. If we come up with a good running game he will only get better.

 

[Camshaft]

The best thing that happened to Kurt was being benched in 2004. If not, he probably still be rehabbing from the 2004 season.

KW has been on fire since the last half of the 2007 season. Why?

Kurt is in great physical shape for Kurt (2008 and on).
The OL can provide adequate pass protection.
Haley made the plays to suit the talent and called the plays according to the defense's inablities.
KW's experience to read defenses, quick release, and field of vision.
Great set of receivers.
Kurt wears gloves now.
Did I mention that he has a great set of receivers?

 

[Duckjake]

Did I mention that he has a great set of receivers?

You don't have to hold on to the ball very long when you have a guy like Fitzgerald who can catch anything covered or not.

However, The Oline must protect at least 4.5 seconds to throw any pass 40 yards or more. Unless DRC is playing wide receiver.

 

[WisconsinCard]

You don't have to hold on to the ball very long when you have a guy like Fitzgerald who can catch anything covered or not.

However, The Oline must protect at least 4.5 seconds to throw any pass 40 yards or more. Unless DRC is playing wide receiver.[/QUOTE]

You forgot to figure ball in the air time. It will take the ball almost as long to travel 40 yards as it will a player. Especially DRC...

 

[conraddobler]

Am I missing something here? Warner has always had a fast delivery in terms of mechanics. To get rid of the ball fast requires a fast read which cannot be taught and receivers to be open. The guy had the Greatest Show on Earth using the passing game as a running game with short passes to very good runners. His sacks likely came form receivers not getting open, running passing routes that were to long for the protection that was available to the QB. With his experience he is a hard QB to blitz. With good receivers who recognize when to cut off a long route he becomes double tough. His smarts make up a lot for his age. If we come up with a good running game he will only get better.

Whiz made a big deal of how he wanted the position played and remember it was the hurry up, that he instituted that gave Warner spot duty before Matt got hurt.

I was merely saying that Whiz is the one who set the tone and direction of what he wanted out of Kurt and probably also designed the offense that Kurt thrives in.

Russ was speculating about it being Hailey or Whiz who might of been more responsible for Warner doing better, IMO it was Whiz, both in design of the offense and what he asked Kurt to do.

Kurt is capable of holding the ball too long, he was taught to do that at one time, Whiz IMO told him not to do that and also designed an offense that made sure he didn't have to.

Warners ability to execute it is obvious, I don't really know what point you were making but perhaps you were thinking I was talking mechnics because I was about Matt.

Warners mechanics were in fact only changed as far as I know in respect to his fumbling, which he did improve on and possible it was the gloves but that's a whole other can of worms as he's been much better with them since he's put them on.

After I reread what I wrote I can see where you might have thought I was talking about mechanics more than I meant to, I didn't mean mechanics but style, as in what he was asked to do.

In one specific clip in 2007 he went running after Kurt hounding him that he had to look over on the other side on that play, that his read was wrong or that he didn't pay enough attention on that play to who he was suppposed to look at, you can in fact teach reads because in any one offense they are different.

My point all along is the Whiz is the driving force of what this team does offensively, that he understands in minute detail what it's purpose is, what to do in order to get quick good matchups, get the ball out and maximize Warners natural abilities, we aren't going to see major regressions IMO due to Hailey leaving, although I liked Hailey, IMO Whiz is more than capable in terms of putting out a quality offense and IMO he built what Warner thrives in.

 

[Russ Smith]

Who's to believe? Michael Lewis(above) or Paul (Dr. Z) Zimmerman(below)?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/dr_z/11/17/drz.warner/index.html

Lewis was directly quoting Alamar who got the numbers from some guy named Tom Coughlin, you know the Giants coach. It fit in very well his decision the next day to bench Kurt. So I'm going to assume that Lewis got it correct until Coughlin or Alamar say otherwise.

 

[Russ Smith]

Interesting thread. Mao Tosi FC made a good point on how the receivers impact how long you have to hold on to the ball.

Yes and no, lots of wide open WR's never get the ball if the QB doesn't have time to throw it.

Last year we had the perfect mix of time to throw, open WR's, and a QB who for the most part was brilliant.

 

[SuperSpck]

Lewis was directly quoting Alamar who got the numbers from some guy named Tom Coughlin, you know the Giants coach. It fit in very well his decision the next day to bench Kurt. So I'm going to assume that Lewis got it correct until Coughlin or Alamar say otherwise.

Start the clock at the snap, stop it when the ball leaves the QB's hands...
shouldn't be very much error. Not more than a second.