Interesting thought on JJ, perhaps

[Travis Bickle]

I was thinking about how many calls there were to trade JJ as recently as a month ago, and I occasionally thought what we might get for him.

So here's the question: which player would you have traded JJ for a month ago who you would not trade for him now? Disregard salary cap issues.

My nominations: Eddy Curry and Ron Artest.

And if thread is boring, my apologies--it'll certainly be more interesting than work is today, at least for me.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Travis Bickle
I was thinking about how many calls there were to trade JJ as recently as a month ago, and I occasionally thought what we might get for him.

So here's the question: which player would you have traded JJ for a month ago who you would not trade for him now? Disregard salary cap issues.

My nominations: Eddy Curry and Ron Artest.

And if thread is boring, my apologies--it'll certainly be more interesting than work is today, at least for me.

There is no way Indiana would have done the deal for Artest. Maybe now, but he is a big part of the way that team plays.

For all his talent, there was never much interest here in Curry. The Suns need big men who are mobile, active and willing to work really hard. This is not how anyone describes Curry.

It is an interesting problem. For the most part, trades of low priced players on rookie contracts are generally a result of the team giving up on the player. It was clear the Suns were not giving up on JJ and their faith was rewarded.

The very gact that the Bulls would give up on Curry is hardly an endorsement.

 

[Joe Mama]

Indiana would not trade Ron Artest for Joe Johnson now. There's no way in hell they would have made that trade a month ago. Chicago might give the Phoenix Suns Curry for JJ right now, but they definitely would not have done it a month ago. No way. I'm not sure what the Phoenix Suns could have gotten for JJ month ago, but I'm positive it would not have been anything very impressive.

Joe Mama

 

[slinslin]

Who cares, JJ is untouchable.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by slinslin
Who cares, JJ is untouchable.

hilarious. and the funniest part? i hated jj, and i think i'm now closer to the "untouchable" comment than not. jj's feeding me crow by the game.

 

[Skkorpion]

Originally posted by Ouchie-Z-Clown
hilarious. and the funniest part? i hated jj, and i think i'm now closer to the "untouchable" comment than not. jj's feeding me crow by the game.

Ditto. JJ's emergence has been nothing less than stunning. Who gets the credit? D'Antoni or the Suns front office (ugh), or both?

 

[Errntknght]

Here's a post I just put into the Houston game thread... it fits better here so I'll beg everyones indulgence for quoting myself. (I omitted a refernce which attributed JJ's turnaround to Marbury's leaving, which is why the second paragraph seems a little odd.)


>>I don't want to rain on everyone's parade but we can't be too euphoric about JJ just yet. He sure seems to have a delicate psyche and he hasn't been tested under serious pressure so far. The games now are roughly as important as summer league play and JJ shined in those from the beginning, according to those that saw him play - including his teammates. He's played quite well in the fourth quarters of the games and that's a slight bit of pressure, which is a good sign. Still I want to see him playing when we're fighting for playoff position and in the playoffs where the pressure peaks. I'm not predicting his shooting will fall apart but it is a legitimate concern.

I'm not at all sure the departure of Marbury had a lot to do with the startling turn around in jj's play. For one thing JJ attributed it to the not having the spectre of Penny hanging over him. He may be wrong about that, of course. Another possibility is that with Marbury & Penny gone and the team's record what it was, the team was believed to be out of the playoff hunt; sudden drop in pressure. With three things happening at once we're all guessing as to what was the key element for JJ but the parallel with his equally startling negative turn around with the change in pressure from summer league to regular season causes a nagging doubt that we know the final story on JJ now.<<

 

[cly2tw]

Well said, Errntknght!

Anybody who saw JJ play, how smoothly he moved and how well he handled the ball, would agree that he had the techinical and physical tools to become a Penny-like player before the trade. Many gave up on him because of his lack of confidence. All we see now is that what we knew already: if he could play loose without much pressure, he could be an excellent player. We need at least next season when we hopefully will be contending for, and playing in, playoffs before we could be safely say what a player under pressure JJ is.

 

[elindholm]

I'm now convinced that most of this board has me on Ignore.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Since you moved your post, I will move my response

I agree with a lot that you said, however the departure of Marbury has a big deal to do with I think. Joe has been playing much better when he intiates the offense. Even if he doesnt bring it down, if he is able to start up the play, he does much better. He also takes it inside a lot more now. When Marbury was on teh team, he constantly drove it inside, clogging it up to much for anyone else to penetrate.

The fact that Penny is gone is a big deal for sure. I don't think anyone can argue that.

About the suns not facing any pressure, therefor he feels relaxed. I personally think that statement is off. What do you think causes more pressure? Being the 4th option on a team that is supposed to be in the playoffs, or playing for your next contract??? JJ is up for an extension this summer I believe, you have to assume he feels just as much pressure to perform well in order to cash in off of this.

Contracts after your rookie deal usually pave the way. If you get screwed on your first contract because you didnt show enough, you could be locked up at a bargain price for years. Look at Michael Redd at 3 million a year.

All I am saying is if you assume JJ felt pressure from being on a team with expectations, you have to assume he is pressured by performing up to his personal expectations.



Of course we will be able to see how it all works out next year when the suns are in the playoffs (hopefully)

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by elindholm
I'm now convinced that most of this board has me on Ignore.

Don't feel bad Eric, I think I have only gotton a total of 5-10 responses to my 1500 or so posts

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by elindholm
I'm now convinced that most of this board has me on Ignore.

Eric,

I do recall that you said the same about JJ some time ago. The problem is that most posters just read what they want to read once their own mind is set, like JJ was gonna be our franchise player and for this reason we didn't need Kobe. This is the psychological phenomenon called avoiding cognitive dissonance.

Silimarly, I repeated posted about why Marion can never be a really good defender by pointing out his hopping and jumping around on the court as compared to smooth moving/gliding around good defenders like MJ, Pippen, Kobe or even our own JJ do. Exactly the same trait prevents him to be a good player for driving and drawing contacts, since he can't smoothly change his direction when driving or in air. Nobody seems to listen, or watch Marion's game to either confirm or dispute my claim for that matter.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I have said I think he is an awesome team defender. That popping and hopping lets him play the passing lanes very well. He also has the ability to knock a ball away from a defender when they are holding it. And he is awesome for weak side blocks.

However, I agree he will never be that great of a 1 on 1 defender when his man is on the move.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by cly2tw
Eric,

I do recall that you said the same about JJ some time ago. The problem is that most posters just read what they want to read once their own mind is set, like JJ was gonna be our franchise player and for this reason we didn't need Kobe. This is the psychological phenomenon called avoiding cognitive dissonance.

Silimarly, I repeated posted about why Marion can never be a really good defender by pointing out his hopping and jumping around on the court as compared to smooth moving/gliding around good defenders like MJ, Pippen, Kobe or even our own JJ do. Exactly the same trait prevents him to be a good player for driving and drawing contacts, since he can't smoothly change his direction when driving or in air. Nobody seems to listen, or watch Marion's game to either confirm or dispute my claim for that matter.

Actually people read your stuff. They just don't agree that Marion can NEVER be a really good defender. It may keep him from being a "great" defender just as being only 6'7" hurts when trying to defend really tall players; but I've seen some really good defenders that were not as athletic as Shawn. They just have to use their natural skills as best as they can and work hard at it.

In any case, most people disagree with your seeming obsession to dump Marion. After a while, they just stop bothering to respond.

I don't lose any sleep about the fact that many of my more provocative posts do not generate a response. I just assume everyone agrees with me.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

No no no george, you got it all wrong,

Most people just cant keep up with your 20 post a day rate, so some of your posts are bound to be missed!

I kid, I kid

 

[Errntknght]

Eric wrote, "I'm now convinced that most of this board has me on Ignore."

I know the feeling but I just tell myself that my argument must have been so obviously right on target that no one can think of a way to refute it. It helps some.

Oh, crap after saying that I suppose I should answer the Cracker's post...

"The fact that Penny is gone is a big deal for sure. I don't think anyone can argue that."

I just did argue that we don't know what caused the lack of confidence. We may find out and we may not.

"All I am saying is if you assume JJ felt pressure from being on a team with expectations, you have to assume he is pressured by performing up to his personal expectations."

I don't see any compelling reason to equate the two possible sources of pressure. A player could easily feel pressure from one and not the other.

"Of course we will be able to see how it all works out next year when the suns are in the playoffs (hopefully)"

Finally, something I can agree with...

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
No no no george, you got it all wrong,

Most people just cant keep up with your 20 post a day rate, so some of your posts are bound to be missed!

I kid, I kid

20? When was the last time I did only 20?

I notice the number of "views" as well as posts. There are many people only look. They should be encouraged to add comments, even if only to support something someone else said.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Errntknght, a player could easily feel pressure from one and not the other, however how do we know what kind of pressure JJ feels? He has never once, nor has anyone from the suns ever said (to my knowledge) that JJ was under pressure to perform because the suns were in the playoff hunt. Just like they never said that he was under pressure from the contract extension.

The only thing anyone from the team has ever said was he may have been looking over his shoulder because of Penny. So without Penny, all the pressure should be gone.

The fact that he may feel no pressure since he isn't in playoff contention holds just as much weight as he might have MORE pressure on him, becuase it his chance to prove he deserves a big contract.

 

[George O'Brien]

One of the reasons I want the Suns to do what they can to get into the playoffs next season is to get used to the extra pressure and the "let them" play absense of fouls against star players. All of the Suns need to get to the playoffs and get used to it.

 

[Errntknght]

Sheesh, I keep saying we, and that includes me, don't know what caused the pressure he felt. I'm concerned that it may be the importance of the game, that's all. Even if it was that it may go away as he plays more. When we get back into contention we'll see how he responds but until then I'll have the question in my mind.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by Errntknght
Sheesh, I keep saying we, and that includes me, don't know what caused the pressure he felt. I'm concerned that it may be the importance of the game, that's all. Even if it was that it may go away as he plays more. When we get back into contention we'll see how he responds but until then I'll have the question in my mind.

Agree. I just didn't think you understood what I meant (since the first post of mine was a little hard to follow), so I tried to clarify it.

 

[elindholm]

I know the feeling but I just tell myself that my argument must have been so obviously right on target that no one can think of a way to refute it. It helps some.

Actually, I was referring more to the phenomenon of someone posting something nearly identical to what I've posted many times before, and then a chorus of people commending it as a fresh new perspective.

But don't mind me. I've just had a bad day, that's all.

 

[cly2tw]

My speculation is that JJ is a gentle and kind kid who'd feel bad if the team lost because of his not playing well. This puts pressure on him and makes him become hesitant and second-guessing all the time. He will be a great team player when he manages the confidence part via tough tests in competitive environment. But due to the lack of the "me-first" mentality of a MJ, Kobe, or Isiah Thomas, he is best suited for the role of Pippen or Dumars, as the other essential part of a championship team. Mind you, Pippen is a HOFer in his own right!

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien

I don't lose any sleep about the fact that many of my more provocative posts do not generate a response. I just assume everyone agrees with me.

Well, I for one respond to your posts JUST to disagree!

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Errntknght


"The fact that Penny is gone is a big deal for sure. I don't think anyone can argue that."

I just did argue that we don't know what caused the lack of confidence. We may find out and we may not.

Well, I just have to say...

SO WHAT?

People keep going on and on about WHY JJ didn't have any confidence. I don't think it matters until he actually starts playing badly for a few games. Then you can overanalyze all you want.

Why can't people just enjoy this awakening of JJ, for however long it lasts?