Is our Secondary Really Better?

[100%CardsFan]

Releasing Adubb I understood, still very pissed at the FO for it, thought it was classless and wanted him to retire Red, never playing for another team, but it is what it is, but getting rid of Rhodes???? WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know, I know, im not an NFL coach or scout just a fan, but hell us fans knew Rolle was a better FS then a CB years before they moved him....getting rid of both 24 and 25 really has irked me....Wonder if im the only one,

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I understand where you're coming from, but this front office and coaching staff are trying to turn this roster over quickly and the best way to do that is to purge big contracts where can afford to. Rhodes I believe was worth what he was getting paid, but they must have seen something they liked in Johnson or maybe there is something that we haven't heard about?.

 

[GatorAZ]

Probably based on depth. A-Dub was horrible but losing Rhodes should sting. Even though he was invisible at times he still made big plays every few games. When we go nickel that cb depth will show.

Losing Horton will hurt on 3rd downs.

 

[MWOOD92]

Reports say that Rhodes no longer wanted to be with the Cardinals. There's no point in keeping a player that no longer wants to play for you. Getting rid of a disgruntled player and saving cap space at the same time only worked out for the best.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I don't think people are saying the secondary is better as much as they are saying our cornerbacks as a whole are better.

Which concerning the CBs that is debatable.

 

[Zeno]

I'd say Powers and Cason are better than Toler and Gay...not significantly better but better nonetheless.

I'd also say we are weaker at Safety now...Wilson being on the downside of his career doesn't mean he wasn't still an effective player and Rhodes was a good player in Arizona and IMO the best Free Safety we've ever had in AZ. I think it would be very difficult for anyone to paint that Johnson and Bell are a better safety duo.

 

[cardpa]

Come on people get over it. Rhodes no longer wanted to be a Cardinal. Better he is gone than having a disgruntled player on the roster. As far as Wilson is concerned he is definitely on the downside of his career and I understand the new regime wanting to make its mark on the team which means certain vets are going to go.

For all we know Wilson may not have fit into the defense Bowles will be running and Wilson's playing time may have greatly diminished. I rather see Wilson playing more minutes in NE than warming the bench in AZ.

I think the CB position is in better shape now than before and I will give S a pass until I see how it transpires. There is always the possibility we could be saying Rhodes who? by mid season or we could be cursing letting him go however I rather curse the loss than have a disgruntled player on the roster.

 

[HoodieBets]

What we lost in our secondary we gained in run defense and and pass rush. We were horrible against the run last year. I believe the CB's are better which should shield what we lost with Rhodes. I love ADub but we arent losing much esp in coverage. Maybe we can now be a team that can cover a TE

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

I'd say Powers and Cason are better than Toler and Gay...not significantly better but better nonetheless.

I'd also say we are weaker at Safety now...Wilson being on the downside of his career doesn't mean he wasn't still an effective player and Rhodes was a good player in Arizona and IMO the best Free Safety we've ever had in AZ. I think it would be very difficult for anyone to paint that Johnson and Bell are a better safety duo.

This...Cards went from top five safety tandem to joke.

 

[Catfish]

I understand where you're coming from, but this front office and coaching staff are trying to turn this roster over quickly and the best way to do that is to purge big contracts where can afford to. Rhodes I believe was worth what he was getting paid, but they must have seen something they liked in Johnson or maybe there is something that we haven't heard about?.

Yup-----It is all about purging the old roster of unsustainable contracts as quickly as possible and freeing money up to bring in replacements. Wilson was inevitable, (he knew that last season already). Rhodes wouldn't restructure, so he sealed his own fate here. He knew what he was doing, and there was no bad blood between either player and the FO. This was yet another situation that Whiz and Graves allowed to occur without planning for replacement early enough. Do not fault the new Coaching staff and front office for this move, it was caused by failure to address the aging safeties in a timely manner.

 

[Duckjake]

What we lost in our secondary we gained in run defense and and pass rush. We were horrible against the run last year. I believe the CB's are better which should shield what we lost with Rhodes. I love ADub but we arent losing much esp in coverage. Maybe we can now be a team that can cover a TE

Just curious. Why do you think the Cards gained in run defense and pass rush?

Wilson was a top run defender so that's a loss.

Shaughnessey looks to be a rotation guy who will be playing behind Dockett and Campbell. A guy they probably want to groom as an eventual replacement for Dockett. Or are the Cards thinking of using him as an OLB?

Don't know about Lorenzo Alexander as a pass rusher but if he had potential to be a good OLB why did he not start when Orakpo went out instead of Rob Jackson? Anyone familiar with the Redskins know what the deal was there?

Brinckley could possibly be a gain in run defense. Just don't know enough about him to tell if that's going to be the case.

 

[Chopper0080]

I'd say Powers and Cason are better than Toler and Gay...not significantly better but better nonetheless.

I'd also say we are weaker at Safety now...Wilson being on the downside of his career doesn't mean he wasn't still an effective player and Rhodes was a good player in Arizona and IMO the best Free Safety we've ever had in AZ. I think it would be very difficult for anyone to paint that Johnson and Bell are a better safety duo.

This is true.

 

[mrbyte]

How will we know if our secondary is better until it plays in a regular season game?.

 

[Totally_Red]

Ask me after week one. I'll have a better idea of the Todd Bowles defense and how all the pieces fit together.

 

[Chopper0080]

Ask me after week one. I'll have a better idea of the Todd Bowles defense and how all the pieces fit together.

Using that logic, shouldn't we wait until after week 8 since it took that long for the defense to get adjusted to Horton's defense?

The question being asked is if we have more talent in our secondary than we did in 2012. I don't believe anyone is speaking to how it will all play out over the course of the season because, of course, we can't know. What we can do is look at the difference in talent, and then determine if our coaching staff has put itself in a better or worse situation to improve on our secondary's performance vs. last year.

 

[JeffGollin]

On paper - R Johnson and Y Bell have big shoes to fill.

At #2 & #3 CB - we replaced a couple of bodies with a couple of bodies. I think either Cason or Powers nets out a "plus" over Gay. I'm not so sure about Toler. We may regret not keeping him.

But you're asking us to judge these guys before seeing what they do on the field.

 

[Catfish]

Just curious. Why do you think the Cards gained in run defense and pass rush?

Wilson was a top run defender so that's a loss.

Shaughnessey looks to be a rotation guy who will be playing behind Dockett and Campbell. A guy they probably want to groom as an eventual replacement for Dockett. Or are the Cards thinking of using him as an OLB?

Don't know about Lorenzo Alexander as a pass rusher but if he had potential to be a good OLB why did he not start when Orakpo went out instead of Rob Jackson? Anyone familiar with the Redskins know what the deal was there?

Brinckley could possibly be a gain in run defense. Just don't know enough about him to tell if that's going to be the case.

Jake, Wilson WAS a great run defender when he was allowed to hit high and knock people out. He was barely effective as a run defender when he was forced to lower his target area to conform with the concussion issued. He bounced off ball carriers far too often without taking them down, because he was a thumper, not a wrap up tackler.

Our whole defense was poor at wrap up tackling, which caused us to finish so low in run defense. We will have lost little at the strong safety position, as the new management team brings in new players, (and there WILL be new ones to come yet). Most of all, the contracts of the safeties were necessary to force their removal from the roster so that we had money to make numerous replacements, (not just safeties).

ALL the players that we have brought in on defense ARE better tacklers than we had on the roster, and that includes Campbell, Dockett, and Lenon. (Haven't you ever asked yourself just how many sacks Campbell COULD have had, if he simply would wrap up his target instead of just hitting him). All these new guys are form, (wrap up), tacklers who take the ball carrier to the ground. That is why we have improved the run defense, (that, plus teaching new fundamental techniques to our old remaining roster).

I don't think you have given the new free agent acquisitions enough credit for the types of players they are. They are all young with much upside, (with the exception of Bell), and Bell will be given more help by way of new drafted players, and possibly another free agent signing. These guys are fundamentally sound already, and are self starters and gym rats who love to hang around and learn from others. This staff will bring out the best in them.

 

[Duckjake]

Jake, Wilson WAS a great run defender when he was allowed to hit high and knock people out. He was barely effective as a run defender when he was forced to lower his target area to conform with the concussion issued. He bounced off ball carriers far too often without taking them down, because he was a thumper, not a wrap up tackler.

Our whole defense was poor at wrap up tackling, which caused us to finish so low in run defense. We will have lost little at the strong safety position, as the new management team brings in new players, (and there WILL be new ones to come yet). Most of all, the contracts of the safeties were necessary to force their removal from the roster so that we had money to make numerous replacements, (not just safeties).

ALL the players that we have brought in on defense ARE better tacklers than we had on the roster, and that includes Campbell, Dockett, and Lenon. (Haven't you ever asked yourself just how many sacks Campbell COULD have had, if he simply would wrap up his target instead of just hitting him). All these new guys are form, (wrap up), tacklers who take the ball carrier to the ground. That is why we have improved the run defense, (that, plus teaching new fundamental techniques to our old remaining roster).

I don't think you have given the new free agent acquisitions enough credit for the types of players they are. They are all young with much upside, (with the exception of Bell), and Bell will be given more help by way of new drafted players, and possibly another free agent signing. These guys are fundamentally sound already, and are self starters and gym rats who love to hang around and learn from others. This staff will bring out the best in them.

Good point on Wilson I've said for the last couple of years that ADub wasn't the same since that hit on Heap in Baltimore and the other fines. In fact it looked like the entire team started to back off because of things like that.

As for the bolded how do you know this? Is there somewhere to watch film of these guys tackling other than the few highlights on nfl.com? My subscription to nfl game rewind ran out and I'm not paying $25 to watch replays for 4 months and then have to pay again for the regular season.

 

[Duckjake]

Crickets

 

[DoTheDew]

I think we're better at CB, slightly worse at S.

The thing with ADub is he's over the hill. He'd already been showing signs of aging. Had we kept him as our starter, we'd have gotten worse at the position just from him aging another year.

Rhodes, honestly, was a mixed bag. One minute you'd love him. The next minute he'd be out of position getting burned by Brian Hartline for an 80 yd TD. I'm not too thrilled with Bell and Johnson, if that remains our starting lineup by the start of the season, but let's not pretend that Rhodes and Wilson was an elite safety duo anymore.

 

[Mulli]

Has anyone said it depends on the 2013 pass rush?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Using that logic, shouldn't we wait until after week 8 since it took that long for the defense to get adjusted to Horton's defense?

The question being asked is if we have more talent in our secondary than we did in 2012. I don't believe anyone is speaking to how it will all play out over the course of the season because, of course, we can't know. What we can do is look at the difference in talent, and then determine if our coaching staff has put itself in a better or worse situation to improve on our secondary's performance vs. last year.

The only difference is that Horton took over in a lockout season so he didn't have a full offseason to implement his defence. Bowles will have a normal offseason so maybe his players will have the system down by week 1.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Catfish]

Good point on Wilson I've said for the last couple of years that ADub wasn't the same since that hit on Heap in Baltimore and the other fines. In fact it looked like the entire team started to back off because of things like that.

As for the bolded how do you know this? Is there somewhere to watch film of these guys tackling other than the few highlights on nfl.com? My subscription to nfl game rewind ran out and I'm not paying $25 to watch replays for 4 months and then have to pay again for the regular season.

I didn't copy the bolded, but it was where I had said that these new FA's were better tacklers than what we had. That much, I learned from reading information available from our local writers on the NFL, (including Urban), and from Arians, (who went to some length to describe the type of defensive players he went after). He was pretty explicit about our poor showing against the rush last year, and made a point of teaching our remaining old roster the art of form/wrap up tackling. Some of this has also been said by former team mates of some of these players who commented on their skill set and talent levels. Some of this information also came from sports writers from cities where these guys played previously. I also got some information from the Free Agent rankings lists.

I have not seen any film on any of the new guys with the exception of Mendenhall, (who incidently showed about a 6 or 7 to 1 advantage over Beanie in the number of 30 yard runs he had made during the same time), in his highlight reel.

When I see writers from other cities, former team mates, and our own new coaches and scouts comment on these things, I take notice. That is how I concluded that we will be a better tackling team, (therefore better at defending the run), than last year's model was.

One other thing-----with the exception of Wilson and Rhodes, EACH player that we brought in was ranked ahead of the man who he replaced on our roster according to the Free Agent rankings available to everyone. Of all our losses, Rhodes figures to be the one most missed this year. I know that I will certainly lament his leaving, but the new guys deserve to clean house and purge contracts where they see fit, so I will go along with them on that. I would have loved to see Wilson retire a Cardinal, without having to leave, but even he knew that this was probably coming even if the old coaching staff stayed, or he wouldn't have commented on it during last year's pre-season.

 

[JeffGollin]

Regarding which guys are or aren't good tacklers - It becomes a matter of not attracting negative attention.

One thing I always keep an eye out when watching games when we're on defense is - when our opponent runs a successful play against us, I want to know "who screwed up?" (& what happened)? Did the guy break down improperly? Did he fail to wrap up? Did he lunge & whiff? Did he run away from (or turn his back) on the proper gap? Did he get stood up turned and maneuvered away from the play? Did he bite on a fake? Did he fail to contain an outside play?

Or in pass coverage, did he leave too much of a cushion, fail to turn back to see the ball or be victim of a pick plat?

When you do this, certain names keep coming to the fore and you remember their names for being poor or inconsistent in certain aspects of defensive play.

The "invisible" defensive players (whether they make big plays or not) tend to be the ones you trust most.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Regarding which guys are or aren't good tacklers - It becomes a matter of not attracting negative attention.

One thing I always keep an eye out when watching games when we're on defense is - when our opponent runs a successful play against us, I want to know "who screwed up?" (& what happened)? Did the guy break down improperly? Did he fail to wrap up? Did he lunge & whiff? Did he run away from (or turn his back) on the proper gap? Did he get stood up turned and maneuvered away from the play? Did he bite on a fake? Did he fail to contain an outside play?

Or in pass coverage, did he leave too much of a cushion, fail to turn back to see the ball or be victim of a pick plat?

When you do this, certain names keep coming to the fore and you remember their names for being poor or inconsistent in certain aspects of defensive play.

The "invisible" defensive players (whether they make big plays or not) tend to be the ones you trust most.

This makes sense. Unless a player makes a really good or great play you generally don't really notice them. However when they make a bad play it is usually plain to see.