Is Slowing the Suns Down the Key for the Lakers

[azirish]

The Suns two biggest losses in the last several weeks have been to the Warriors and Nuggets - both running teams that hit their early outside shots. The Suns don't defend the perimeter against early offenses, which is why teams can blister them with threes. It always works - until they start missing.

SLOW, SLOW, SLOW is fine if the opponent can hit a lot of well contested shots. But that means hanging onto the ball for 22 seconds and avoiding steals. The Suns are vulnerable to teams that attack the offensive glass, but can run them off the court if the Suns manage to get the rebound.

On the other end, the Suns half court offense is better than many people give them credit for. Their ball movement, pick and roll, use of cutters, and Nash's "walk about" are serious threats. Barbosa is one of the most dangerous players off the dribble in the NBA and Diaw presents some major matchup issues when he plays like he has lately. Still, the key is Stoutemire. If he's hitting his mid range shot, he's all but impossible for anyone to defend without help.

The challenge for most teams is that slowing the Suns down also means slowing themselves down. It is typically not a great tradeoff.

 

[D-Dogg]

Yes, because the Lakers aren't a running team, and the Tri is a half-court oriented, pick your spots type offense. They are built to slow it down.

 

[Scot1]

I think the point of azirish's post is that the Suns are defending slow-down teams really well recently. Trying to run, especially as a semi-surprise, might be the Lakers' best strategy, whether they're built to do it or not. I admit that I would guess that other factors--how often and long the Suns are on cruise control, Bryant's FG%, injury issues--are more likely to affect the outcome decisively.

I think half of every practice should be LB and Amare working on P&Rs. God, if they could run that well. Can Diaw and Amare run a P&R--would that work? Get the opposing C and PF defending it? LOL, at any rate.

 

[HooverDam]

I think half of every practice should be LB and Amare working on P&Rs. God, if they could run that well. Can Diaw and Amare run a P&R--would that work? Get the opposing C and PF defending it? LOL, at any rate.

One of the reasons the P/R w. Nash and Amare, or Nash and Diaw works so well is that if the defender goes around the pick, it gives Nash enough space to shoot, and he's a deadly shooter. So you are screwed either way when Nash is in the game. Diaw isn't a good outside shooter, so the defense would know to key on the rolling player (Amare).

 

[azirish]

I don't think the P&R is as effective without Nash. IMHO, running plays through Boris at the high post seems to work better because of how Boris can drive and kick or take the open jumper. Also, with Boris at the high post, he can hit guys like Marion for back door plays or run give and go plays with Barbosa.

 

[Scot1]

Those comments make sense--thanks.

 

[Errntknght]

Can Diaw and Amare run a P&R--would that work? Get the opposing C and PF defending it?

The easiest way to defend the P&R is to have the two defenders switch men. It pretty much follows that you don't run a pick and roll if there is no mismatch if they do switch. Of course, you also don't run a pick and roll if neither guy can handle the ball well on the dribble, which is another reason you rarely see two bigs doing it. Diaw qualifies however so it wouldn't be unreasonable if getting their defenders to switch would be an advantage to the Suns. They'd have to run the play within Boris' shooting range otherwise the defenders back off and leave him open as he comes off the screen instead of switching.

Last year I thought the Lakers overlooked using Odom and Kwame running a pick & roll when TT was guarding Kwame because TT switched every pick (all year) - and he couldn't stay with Odom. Eventually the Suns would have countered by trapping Odom but why not run it until they figured it out.

 

[elindholm]

Hasn't the potential Diaw/Stoudemire pick and roll been brought up about four times already this year, and shot down by Errntknght each time using exactly the same analysis?

 

[Scot1]

Sorry--I must've missed it. I'm sporadic in reading, compared to the most involved. On the other hand, Errntknight seems somewhat positive about it (if the play can work within Diaw's range--admittedly a question.) I imagined it working differently--the pick either rubs off the faster (Diaw) defender, letting Diaw drive close enough for a jumper against a slower tho bigger out-of-position Amare defender, or it means both defenders are out of position to stop an Amare run to the rim with a Diaw pass coming. Not as good as having the pick be a screen for a shooter with more range, but at least it would handle the Amare/Diaw clash.

 

[elindholm]

Sorry--I must've missed it. I'm sporadic in reading, compared to the most involved.

I overreacted. I confess that I misread the thread and thought that it was the same person bringing it up for the nth time. For an infrequent poster to raise the idea is no problem. Sorry to have been snide.

 

[slinslin]

Yes, because the Lakers aren't a running team, and the Tri is a half-court oriented, pick your spots type offense. They are built to slow it down.

Funny because the Lakers have been a running team with no defense the entire year.

Fast , Slow who cares. The Suns are the better team regardless.

 

[azirish]

I overreacted. I confess that I misread the thread and thought that it was the same person bringing it up for the nth time. For an infrequent poster to raise the idea is no problem. Sorry to have been snide.

If memory serves, the problem is that Diaw does not dribble well in traffic (stands up too much and doesn't protect the ball real well). It's something he needs to work on, but right now is not the time to expect it work.

 

[D-Dogg]

Funny because the Lakers have been a running team with no defense the entire year.

Fast , Slow who cares. The Suns are the better team regardless.

Funny, but you don't watch them at all.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Funny, but you don't watch them at all.

I watch every game and they are not a slow it down team - and if they are, then HOLY CRAP - THEY MUST PLAY THE WORST DEFENSE OF ALL TIME - for a slow it up team to give up 103 ppg is beyond words awful.

they may not run like the Suns, but they do look to run when they can. they're just not very good at it.

 

[D-Dogg]

I watch every game and they are not a slow it down team - and if they are, then HOLY CRAP - THEY MUST PLAY THE WORST DEFENSE OF ALL TIME - for a slow it up team to give up 103 ppg is beyond words awful.

they may not run like the Suns, but they do look to run when they can. they're just not very good at it.

All teams look to run when they can, but they aren't a "running team." The Lakers look to run, but I'd never put them in a Showtime or Suns running game box. They try to run, but most often they bring it up slow and try to execute. They may take quick shots, and aren't a run the shot clock down type offense, but slin said they are a running team. This team is decidedly NOT a running team.

They are also a pretty bad transition defense team, especially behind them...that accounts for a lot of their bad d. How many transition alley oops have you seen on the Lakers...waaaaay too many for me to count. Some teams just to it to the again and again.

 

[slinslin]

Than they must be an awesome offensive team, how else are they one of the few teams averaging over 100ppg despite shooting way worse % than Phoenix? They don't run?

lol

They give up more points than we do also.

Anyway slow or fast, we are just better. We held you under 90 and to 10 in the 4th and won despite a miserable first half and Kobe who couldn't miss a shot in the first 3 quarters.

 

[D-Dogg]

Than they must be an awesome offensive team, how else are they one of the few teams averaging over 100ppg despite shooting way worse % than Phoenix? They don't run?

No, they don't. And "way worse" isn't correct. You guys shoot a sick FG %..best in the league, correct? We are 46% to your 49%. Not a huge difference. We have a guy who scores 30 some points a game, not in the fast break, either.

We are a terrible defensive team, but we aren't a running team. Again, every team runs, but the Lakers aren't a running team. If we had to get in that game, we'd lose. Why the hell do you think we try to slow it down against you? Does Denver? No, because they can run with you...we can't.

Know what you know, but don't act like you know what you don't...ok?

 

[slinslin]

No, they don't. And "way worse" isn't correct. You guys shoot a sick FG %..best in the league, correct? We are 46% to your 49%. Not a huge difference. We have a guy who scores 30 some points a game, not in the fast break, either.

3% is a HUGE difference in FG%.

And another thing guess who is the top 5 in FGA per game?

1. Golden State 86
2. Phoenix 83.6
3. Denver 83.0
4. NO/OK 81.4
5. LA Lakers 81.3

Only one more team is over 80.0, Seattle.

Among those 5 teams only Denver shoots more Freethrows than LA.

Denver 30
Lakers 27
GS 26
NOOK 24
Phoenix 22

If you figure 2 FTA as 1 FGA you get

Golden State 99
Denver 98
Lakers 94.8
Phoenix 94.6
NOOK 93.4



Please, the Lakers weren't a running team? They were.

 

[D-Dogg]

3% is a HUGE difference in FG%.

And another thing guess who is the top 5 in FGA per game?

1. Golden State 86
2. Phoenix 83.6
3. Denver 83.0
4. NO/OK 81.4
5. LA Lakers 81.3

Only one more team is over 80.0, Seattle.

Among those 5 teams only Denver shoots more Freethrows than LA.

Denver 30
Lakers 27
GS 26
NOOK 24
Phoenix 22

If you figure 2 FTA as 1 FGA you get

Golden State 99
Denver 98
Lakers 94.8
Phoenix 94.6
NOOK 93.4



Please, the Lakers weren't a running team? They were.

NO, they weren't. They took shots early in the 24 clock, but they were NOT a running team. That's the problem with you stats watchers...you don't understand teams. You understand numbers. The Lakers were not a running team, and that is not a strength. They are fine doing it, but it isn't their forte.

I like how your Santa Claus is a Billy Goat because they both have beards logic works, but the Lakers were not a running team. Hell, they didn't even KNOW what kind of team they were all season. I watch every game they play, I think I have a bit more insight than you slin.

 

[slinslin]

I'd advise another sport then if you can't see it.

As a matter of fact the Lakers averaged 95 pos per game, the Suns averaged 96. Golden State 99, Denver 98 too bored to look up more.

The Lakers have been a fast paced team the entire season, bottom line.

Besides I don't care anway we are simply better than your team, slow , fast, however you like it.

 

[F-Dog]

Slowing the game down would help the Lakers, but not enough to be decisive, and since the effort would suck up all of their game-planning energy...

On the other hand, they have to do something in between games.

 

[cly2tw]

Suns, Nuggs, Warriors were all held under 100. That defensive performances all failed to win them games.

 

[azirish]

No, they don't. And "way worse" isn't correct. You guys shoot a sick FG %..best in the league, correct? We are 46% to your 49%. Not a huge difference.

Yes it is. Granted, the Lakers are ranked 6th in shooting percentage, but 2.8% differential is a huge difference. (The difference is 3.2% difference in three point shooting)

To give some perspective on the impact of percentages, look at defensive percentages. Dallas is the 7th best at shooting percent defense at 44.7% while the Suns are tied with two other teams at (from 12th to 14th) at 45.7%. Dallas is considered a very good defensive team and the Suns aren't, yet the differential is only 1%. In fact, the Suns are JUST 2.8% off the defensive shoot percentage from Houston, which is ranked #1.

Obviously offense and defensive percentages aren't exactly equivalent, but the general principle holds when dealing with the course of a season. The BEST measure of an offense is point differential where the Suns are ranked second at 7.3 ppg (110.2 versus 102.9) compared to the Lakers -0.07 (103.34 - 103.41).

 

[D-Dogg]

I'd advise another sport then if you can't see it.

And I'd advise you to comment on things you've seen, not interpretation of statistics.

 

[Card Trader]

Getting chippy in here!