Isaiah Simmons and the 5th year option

[AZCB34]

That's some pretty exact math.

It has taken the entire offseason to do the math. You’d think it would be simple but it isn’t

 

[oaken1]

Good move.... he has to pick up a new defense... if The coaches can see him showing progress in the new D we re sign him... but based on his 4 years of play.
Not getting the option should put a chip on his shoulder.

 

[gmabel830]

The right move. If he proves it in the defense and earns a long contract, that will be fine.

 

[bankybruce]

So his legs are more muscular?

Edit: @bankybruce there is only room for one smart aleck in this thread

I defer! It's all you! I'm busy with my Kool-Aid jokes in the mock draft thread anyways.

 

[HairZach]

The best 5 deffenders from the 2020 draft.

1. AJ Terrell No.16
2. Derrick Brown No.8
3. Antoine Winfeld JR No.45
4. Jeremy Chinn No.64
5. Trevon Diggs No.51

Very rough first round on defense. Jeremy Chinn is basically what Simmons was supposed to be.

 

[WisconsinCard]

doesnt count as a lost FA

I didn't think so. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[GatorAZ]

Keim's run of Simmons>Collins>Hollywood was a master class on how to not get value out of your first round picks.

Why stop there?

Cooper
Bucannon
Humphries
Nkemdiche
Reddick
Rosen
Murray
Simmons
Collins
Hollywood

 

[TJ]

And Simmons did himself no favors by playing like complete crap in 98.461% of the snaps he played.

He literally had games in which his play determined the outcome of games, but go on.

 

[Finito]

Oh I 100% blame the Cardinals for Simmons

 

[LA Redbird]

I really don't understand. Simmons was underutilized out of the gate, played out of position for the duration, and still was a disruptor who single handedly won us several games

The fact that he was not given the 5th year will bite us next year (a la Reddick).

 

[BritCard]

I think some are reading too much into this.

5th year options are pretty simple to work out. I reckon I could have called every 5th year option this year, or close to it. You just ask yourself this question.

"Would this player get paid that amount or more if they hit free agency right now?". If the answer is no then the option isn't getting taken.

It's not a comment on if the team wants that player to stay long term or not. It's simply about value. If the option offers value then it will get taken.

Pretty hard for any LB to earn their 5th year option. They pretty much have to be a Pro Bowl level LB.

None of the Linebackers eligible have had their options taken up. Jordyn Brooks, Patrick Queen and Kenneth Murray all declined.

If Simmons hit FA today he's be looking at a 1 year prove it deal for less than $5m. Monti made the right call.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Do you still figure into the comp formula if your fifth year option was not exercised? I do not remember??

That’s a good question and one I hadn’t considered.

 

[juza76]

No brainer
Despite few spectacular plays he doesn't have a position yet and many times his no instinct and poor plays recognition were a problem for the defense
I loved the pick and his potential, big disappointment so far
Let's see if the new regime can make him a better player

 

[BritCard]

Do you still figure into the comp formula if your fifth year option was not exercised? I do not remember??

That’s a good question and one I hadn’t considered.

Players with declined 5th year options do still count for comp pick calculations.

This made me look up recent declined options and what those guys went on to do in FA. Those that hit FA do pretty much nothing.

It seems super rare for a guy to have his option declined and then suddenly be great in year 4 and hit FA.

Most still sign with the team they are with.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Another Keim Bust??! He’ll be Reddick on another team.

How is that a Keim bust? If that happens, it's a coaching staff bust.

 

[BritCard]

How is that a Keim bust? If that happens, it's a coaching staff bust.

Well Keim said day 1 after the draft he was a linebacker. Almost certainly forced him to be played there.

Even if he was a linebacker he was always better suited to Will in a 4-3. Not a 3-4.

I think Vance did his best to try scheme him in but was always a bad fit.

 

[DVontel]

He literally had games in which his play determined the outcome of games, but go on.

Funny thing is, this applies to both positive & negative outcomes.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

How is that a Keim bust? If that happens, it's a coaching staff bust.

Who hired the coach?

I agree that the coaching staff was lacking, but Keim was part of the problem also

 

[YorkshireCardinal]

The right decision for both parties.

I wish Simmons no ill will, and truly hopes he has a break out year and he earns his long term contact here. But, you don’t pay players that kind of money in when you don’t know where to play them - certainly in non-premium positions.

 

[football karma]

one factor to consider here:

when you change coaching staffs, you tend to change schemes and that means good players that dont fit move on

Simmons made plenty of wow plays, but gave up too many "standard" plays too.

Maybe Gannon finds a role for him where you get the former and reduce the latter -- but i dont think you can contractually commit until you see it

i could see WOLB in a 4-3 and he also looked good in limited time as a deep centerfield safety ----- but you also just signed Jalen Thompson to an extension last offseason.

 

[BritCard]

one factor to consider here:

when you change coaching staffs, you tend to change schemes and that means good players that dont fit move on

Simmons made plenty of wow plays, but gave up too many "standard" plays too.

Maybe Gannon finds a role for him where you get the former and reduce the latter -- but i dont think you can contractually commit until you see it

i could see WOLB in a 4-3 and he also looked good in limited time as a deep centerfield safety ----- but you also just signed Jalen Thompson to an extension last offseason.

A lot of attention is on him being wasted due to position but he's not actually particularly good at playing football. That's really the main issue.

His athleticism makes him good at some things. If you want a blitzer off the edge he's pretty good. If you want a guy to chase down a QB or RB in the flat he'd be up there on your list. Most other things not so much, and definitely nothing where he has to mirror or play with his back to the ball.

Which is why he'd probably be best at safety where you can hide some of his weaknesses. I think it's going to be tough for any coach to find a role for him because you basically need something where he's always facing the ball and playing downhill but doesn't require him to get off blocks.

 

[PACardsFan]

Oh I 100% blame the Cardinals for Simmons

Hard to argue this point. Before you draft a Swiss Army knife type of player at 8 overall, you better have a pretty clear idea on how you’re going to use him. And of course, VJ couldn’t train a fish to swim. The kid has been very durable, as I don‘t believe he’s ever missed a game. He’s had a few game changing plays too. But, there’s just not enough value at where we drafted him to extend him now. The hope is that JG best figures out how to best utilize him, and the kid plays well enough in a definitive role to make some money next year at this time. Unfortunately, it probably won’t be with us. But, you never know.

 

[BritCard]

Hard to argue this point. Before you draft a Swiss Army knife type of player at 8 overall, you better have a pretty clear idea on how you’re going to use him. And of course, VJ couldn’t train a fish to swim. The kid has been very durable, as I don‘t believe he’s ever missed a game. He’s had a few game changing plays too. But, there’s just not enough value at where we drafted him to extend him now. The hope is that JG best figures out how to best utilize him, and the kid plays well enough in a definitive role to make some money next year at this time. Unfortunately, it probably won’t be with us. But, you never know.

I think Keim is part of it but also I'm not convinced that Simmons isn't just one of these guys that's super athletic and looks great in college and just doesn't translate to the NFL.

You sometimes get these guys that just don't work for some reason and you can't figure it out. They are smart, they are athletic, they work hard, but it just doesn't click. The game doesn't seem natural. I guess just the way their brain processes or something, just always a fraction of a second slower than it needs to be. Simmons just seems like that guy. Like on every play he's thinking too much rather than playing. I'm not confident he's going to get past that.

I hope I'm wrong. I feel as if anyone can it's the coaches he has right now.

 

[Finito]

Not a doubt in my mind he goes to a good team and just explodes

 

[PACardsFan]

Not a doubt in my mind he goes to a good team and just explodes

That may very well happen. But, you’re missing an important factor. If that does happen, it’ll happen at a significantly lower cost than what it’ll take us to extend him. Exactly why you don’t draft a Swiss Army knife at 8 overall. There’s a new sheriff in town. For as long as he’s here, we won’t be drafting non-impact positions at 8 overall again. Hopefully, lesson learned.