Chaplin
Better off silent
Who's a proponent of more small ball? Does anybody here actually claim to be that? All I see is everyone complaining that we might go small ball.
Isaiah Thomas To Suns
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Who's a proponent of more small ball? Does anybody here actually claim to be that? All I see is everyone complaining that we might go small ball.
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I think he's just talking about the advantage an offensive player has over the defender. It's a basketball adage, a good offensive player has an advantage over a good defender. But all in all, defense is slightly more important than offense especially in the playoffs. The difference isn't as great as it once was but it's still there. But the idea that you have to be a great defensive team in order to win it all doesn't hold water.
You need to be able to score when the defense tightens up and you need to be able to get a stop in critical moments. You need both. You need balance. If you build a great defensive team with little offense, you win some games and lose your fans. If you build a great offensive team with little defense, you might intrigue your fans and you might even win a few more games but you're easy prey in the postseason. Neither will send you home with the Larry O'Brien trophy.
Steve
Exactly.
Here are the two schools of thought as I see them:
A. Sign some bigs!:
This Suns roster like every Suns roster ever lacks bigs! We need to sign SOMEONE who can play the 4 or the 5! All the better if he absolutely can't shoot 3's, is really large, rebounds and defends well. It doesn't matter very much if he's 30+ or not, just get a big body in here so the Suns don't have to play 'small'. I'm sick of seeing small ball and I want the Suns to win now!
B. Maintain flexibility:
This team lacks quality front court players, but it would be foolish to squander money on mediocre players who won't move the needle for the Suns. Understanding how the CBA works, it would be unwise to bring in mediocre bigs who might win the Suns a handful more games, but also remove their flexibility and hinder them from attracting an actual star that can take them to the next level.
Option B is clearly the smarter option in my opinion, but it takes patience from fans, which is hard for people who have followed the Suns for a long time and never gotten to see them win a title.
mojorizen7
ASFN Addict
You want a list?
There's always been a large group of fans here that value the more exciting brand of basketball(smallball) over anything else. I don't have to dig any of that old stuff up. Its true.
More currently i'm reading things like(paraphrasing)
1) positions don't matter
2) it's a different game now
3) all we need is a stretch 4 to replace Frye
4) there aren't many quality bigs around so we don't need one
5) rule changes have made smallball more user-friendly
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Yeah, I don't see anyone arguing in favor of small ball. We'd like a power forward sized power forward and a center sized center. I think part of it is people are looking at the Bledsoe/Dragic combo and calling it small ball. Bledsoe is very strong, he overpowers his opponents and he has a 6'7.5 wingspan. He is a little short but he is not small and he doesn't play small, quite the opposite.
I think some of us foresee short stints with Thomas, Bledsoe and Dragic all on the court but I doubt we'll see very much of it. Bledsoe seems to tap out if he has to play more than 30 minutes and Goran clearly wore down last season. Between those three and Green we should be able to play starter quality guards the entire game without running down our stars.
Steve
mojorizen7
ASFN Addict
I'm not saying the FO needs to go one way or the other this summer. We're still rebuilding as far as i'm concerned.
Maintaining flexibility is always a good idea, but so far we've seen very little to address the frontline either way. If the Suns are eyeballing the trade deadline or 2015 FA then surely there's some help out there for THIS season. Maybe i'm missing something.
Maintaining flexibility is always a good idea, but so far we've seen very little to address the frontline either way. If the Suns are eyeballing the trade deadline or 2015 FA then surely there's some help out there for THIS season. Maybe i'm missing something.
Chaz
observationist
You are making the point here. There are not that many great offensive performers when you are talking the best of the best. If you have two you can contend if you have three you have a great chance.
I am not in any way saying that a good defense is not needed to make it deep in the playoffs. I am saying the great offensive performers will beat even the best defense players one on one and schemes to limit their opportunities and make the other guys beat you are required.
Defense in any sport is reactionary (except maybe baseball).
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You want a list?
There's always been a large group of fans here that value the more exciting brand of basketball(smallball) over anything else. I don't have to dig any of that old stuff up. Its true.
More currently i'm reading things like(paraphrasing)
1) positions don't matter
2) it's a different game now
3) all we need is a stretch 4 to replace Frye
4) there aren't many quality bigs around so we don't need one
5) rule changes have made smallball more user-friendly
I believe position labels don't matter and that the game has changed over the past decade and that we need a big man that can stretch the floor and that there are far fewer back-to-the-basket big men in the game today and that rules changes have made "guards" more important than they used to be. And I'm not a proponent of small ball.
Steve
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I agree with all of this but especially the highlighted part. It is a concern but I don't know that the right answer is out there for us this year. Maybe they'll find what we need but let's face it, we've all thrown out ideas the past couple of months and none of them are all that ideal either. What we need is for Plumlee to improve a little and for Len to clearly beat him out for the starting spot. If that happens, we're in great shape. I don't see it happening but it seems a little less miraculous than any other solution I can come up with.
Steve
Chaz
observationist
I would just say reserve some judgement until late September.
There will be some forwards in training camp that are not currently on the roster.
elindholm
edited for content
Well if you stack the deck as "uninformed" versus "informed," then the choice is pretty obvious. (Do you really think I don't understand how the CBA works?) But I don't think that's the issue at all.
Signing fill-in bigs isn't for "winning now." It's to establish a proper culture. If you get Humphries or Boozer for a year to two while waiting for your franchise PF to drop out of the sky, fine. We're talking short-term deals, not ones that would cost the Suns any flexibility.
If the Suns spend the year playing small ball, they won't learn anything, except how to get better at small ball. You'll wind up with distorted impressions of what the various players on the roster could bring to a contending team. Doesn't it make more sense to train players for roles that could actually be useful a few years into the future?
I'd much, much rather see the Suns go 41-41 with proper lineups, with a clear picture of exactly where they need to get better, than have them go 49-33 with a gimmick lineup that can win regular-season games, is useless in the playoffs, and distorts the picture of what the roster's true capabilities are.
Defense is reactionary but that only tells part of the story. Schemes and strategy are essential for any good defense. Knowing where to be during certain scenarios, having a solid plan for certain players and having the talent are just a few examples. Even bad defenses react. I was simply responding to that one part of your statement.
I completely agree with the above. You need balance but given the choice on which one you want to be better at, I definitely chose Defense because I think the statistics prove that from what I remembered in that study. Great offense was half as likely to get a finals victory. You have to put the basketball in the bucket for sure but you don't have to do it as much if your defense is stellar. Where like the Suns, you can put up 110 and yet your opponent can still drop 115 and beat you.
I think that's why good defense teams can get away more with streaky guys that don't have to put up 25 night in and night out. Maybe that is just a perception on my part though...I have not looked at the stats of defensive teams that closely as of late.
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You want a list?
There's always been a large group of fans here that value the more exciting brand of basketball(smallball) over anything else. I don't have to dig any of that old stuff up. Its true.
More currently i'm reading things like(paraphrasing)
1) positions don't matter
2) it's a different game now
3) all we need is a stretch 4 to replace Frye
4) there aren't many quality bigs around so we don't need one
5) rule changes have made smallball more user-friendly
Grant Hill, just now, on the summer league broadcast of our game said "it is becoming a guard dominant league". They had also discussed this fact earlier. And it's true. Not that a single team in the league would pass on getting the next Duncan but the game is favoring guard play right now, even in the playoffs.
Steve
Chaz
observationist
I wonder what Miami's defense was rated before they gave up 110 a game in the finals.
Honest question. My impression was that they were pretty good.
Honest question. My impression was that they were pretty good.
Good question. I just looked it up but keeping in mind some sites differ on how they measure "best"....
Miami
2014 #15
2013 #7
2012 #4
2011 #5
2010 #5
San Antonio #3 this year and #3 last year.
http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/defensive-efficiency
Hollinger has it slightly different:
2014 #11
2013 #7
2012 #4
2011 #5
2010 #4
San Antonio was #4 this year and #3 last year.
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff
Also just a side note: San Antonio was #4 this year and #3 last year.
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Chaplin
Better off silent
You want a list?
There's always been a large group of fans here that value the more exciting brand of basketball(smallball) over anything else. I don't have to dig any of that old stuff up. Its true.
More currently i'm reading things like(paraphrasing)
1) positions don't matter
2) it's a different game now
3) all we need is a stretch 4 to replace Frye
4) there aren't many quality bigs around so we don't need one
5) rule changes have made smallball more user-friendly
There is nobody that at least claims to be in support of playing small ball as a philosophy. If you are convinced there is, please tell us. Saying what you said just looks like you are making it up. I just don't see a need to do that.
None of those points you make support smallball as a philosophy. A necessary evil, maybe, but not a philosophy. We barely missed the playoffs last season with Bledsoe missing half the year. We have lost Ish Smith and Channing Frye but gained TJ Warren and Isaiah Thomas. We get a stretch 4 we'll be very similar to last year's team. Will we contend for a championship? Of course not. Nobody is saying that. But we could make the playoffs and with this young group, that would be a great step. Also, who has said that we don't need another big man? That's crazy talk. Your 3 and 4 pretty much cancel each other out.
Hell, remember what we were saying last year at this time? And almost with the same exact team.
mojorizen7
ASFN Addict
Thats fine. Maybe it has changed into college basketball. I don't think it means the Suns or any other team has to load up on combo guards, have a stretch 4 big as your feature frontcourt guy...and subscribe to this trend to be ultimately successful.
I think it's possible that the PF talent has been watered down as a result of having so many Euro big men in the league who don't have any traditional big man NBA skills.
Look at the NFL for a moment. Currently, it's a passing league right? Ok maybe, but arguably the two best teams in the NFL(including the SB Champion Seahawks and San Francisco don't subscribe to that universal "trend." Not to mention that entire division bucks that trend and is considered the best division in the league, yet it's not even close to being a passing division. Anyway, slight off topic but it helps make my point about trends and success. Just something to think about.
They spent a top 5 pick on a Center and traded an aging veteran that was of no use for them for a front court player (Plumlee). Those guys are both young though, so it takes time to develop. I'm not sold on Len at all, and hated the pick at the time, but its not like they haven't done things to address the front court.
Im fine with the Suns getting Boozer, as I've said elsewhere. I doubt he'd beat out Markieff for the starting role though. I'd only want him on a very short deal, preferably one year. Though I suspect a team, probably in the weak East that wants to make the playoffs will over bid a bit for him (most likely Atl or Charlotte).
We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I completely disagree with all of it. I don't think playing small ball for a year somehow breaks your players so that they later can't play a different style. I don't think it distorts a smart front offices view of those players (and I think we have a smart front office now).
The Suns have been out of the playoffs for a while now, much longer than Suns fans are used to. I'd like to get into the playoffs this year and if that means not playing big stiffs, fine. Getting to the playoffs would be a tremendous benefit to our young players, to the Suns organizational bottom line and MOST IMPORTANTLY to free agents like Kevin Love, Deandre Jordan, Roy Hibbert, Marc Gasol, Omer Asik, LaMarcus Aldridge, or whatever front court player you'd hope for the Suns to target in the summer of 2015.
The Suns transitioned nicely from the small ball style of West-Chambers-Majerle-Hornacek-KJ to a somewhat more traditional Miller/West-Barkley-Dumas/Ceballos-Majerle-KJ and that's just one example of many, many over league history.
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Well, I don't deny that it's a trend and that it might not always stay this way. And it's not college ball at all, there's a lot more physicality in the college game than the pros IMO. But you have to keep in mind, the league wanted this change. They put it in play in 2004 but it's taken awhile to filter through the referees. So many of them reverted back to their old style when the game got close or when the playoffs came around. But some of the old ones have retired and most of the rest have adjusted. They no longer allow the defender to re-direct the ball handler and they call almost all contact on outside shots.
I think you've got the wrong idea on the stretch big man. It's not just the impact of the Euro big, rules changes do have a lot to do with it. The problem right now though is that so many of the stretch 4's are flawed. It isn't written in stone that they can't play defense or rebound, it's just the need for this skill is viewed as so important that they are making stretch 4's out of just about anybody that can hit the three. I think in the next few years the pipeline will deliver more true power forwards that can take their defender deep without sacrificing the rest of their game.
Steve
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Chaz
observationist
I don't care what they play as long as they get up and down the court and win.
The reality is the is an entertainment industry. Being entertaining is a sound strategy.
The reality is the is an entertainment industry. Being entertaining is a sound strategy.
Chaplin
Better off silent
That is a valid point, and that really is the MO of the league, IMO. The league does not care if the fans want a championship, the league cares that the fans will come out and watch the team no matter what.
Stern loved the Clipper fans back in the 90s. An inferior product still drawing people spending a lot of money? Score! Fans can moan all they want about not winning a championship, but unfortunately, that's not what the NBA is about. In fact, that's not what most American sports are about. It's about making the most money that is possible during a season. Their audience (casual fans) is who they care about--season ticket holders and merchandise buyers, not if the Suns go to the Finals. Unfortunate for us, who have been aching for a championship for 40 years.
elindholm
edited for content
What frustrates me most of all, though, is that many of the same people on this board who call the Nash era a failure for its zero Finals appearances are now getting all excited about a much inferior version of SSOL that is destined for a 50-and-fade ceiling. (You aren't in that category, since you support the Suns no matter what.)
How many times did we hear, "Dump Nash so the rebuild can begin"? And now here we are in this strange semi-rebuild, having not done all of the things that most people said were essential:
* The Suns did not bottom out (only one really bad season).
* They did not draft a franchise cornerstone (Alex Len, give me a break).
* They did not establish a culture of defense and accountability.
Seriously, go back to old threads. This is all most people talked about. "Do it the right way, for once!" And now, a small-ball team nearly makes the playoffs and it's all forgotten. What will be the next collective about-face, I wonder?
CardsSunsDbacks
Not So Skeptical
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I'm one of the people that at least to some degree believes everything you just listed. Though I wouldn't say I'm a proponent to small ball, but I think with the right players it can be effective. This team is built around wing players right now and thus makes sense to try and take advantage of what this team is best built to do and that is smaller lineups. Doesn't mean we have to play small all of the time and some teams like Memphis for instance will likely force us to go with bigger lineups because they have bigs that can dominate the painted area.You want a list?
There's always been a large group of fans here that value the more exciting brand of basketball(smallball) over anything else. I don't have to dig any of that old stuff up. Its true.
More currently i'm reading things like(paraphrasing)
1) positions don't matter
2) it's a different game now
3) all we need is a stretch 4 to replace Frye
4) there aren't many quality bigs around so we don't need one
5) rule changes have made smallball more user-friendly
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Chaplin
Better off silent
At this time, that's a good point. But we certainly aren't done with the rebuild, not by a longshot. It just has progressed faster than anyone thought.
elindholm
edited for content
But what are you trying to build? If you're trying to build a little wood playhouse in your backyard, you can skimp on the foundation, maybe don't dig it as deep, use lower-quality materials, something like that. If you're trying to build a skyscraper, you have to get everything very solid from the start. You can't build the first two stories, realize that the foundation is inadequate, and then "fix" it; the only option is to start over. That's what most of this board realized a few years ago and has now forgotten. It drives me crazy.
