It sounds like Amundson is on his way out

[Chaplin]

Warrick is better than Amundson. Period. We loved his energy, sure, but he is not as good a player as Amundson. That's a fact. And I think it's no secret that Lou is probably asking for money similar to what Warrick got. Lou simply just isn't worth it. If he is, why hasn't another team snatched him up yet? Fans always overrate the players on their own teams and Amundson is a perfect example of that.

 

[mojorizen7]

Warrick is better than Amundson. Period. We loved his energy, sure, but he is not as good a player as Amundson. That's a fact. And I think it's no secret that Lou is probably asking for money similar to what Warrick got. Lou simply just isn't worth it. If he is, why hasn't another team snatched him up yet? Fans always overrate the players on their own teams and Amundson is a perfect example of that.

Better at what? Scoring some points sure...dunking the ball sure....being athletic maybe....

We'll see Chap.

I don't see Warrick mixing it up inside,blocking shots,or bringing the same level of energy that a Lou brings to the table.

Trust me,i'm not saying that Lou is a make or break piece of the puzzle here(a vet like Kurt Thomas is/was), but from what i know of Warrick(which isn't alot, granted) he's NOT going to help fill the gaps that exist with this current roster of shooters like Lou could have.

That i do know. There's a hole in the middle and Lou's game is better suited to help plug that hole over a guy like Warrick who is a bit redundant IMO.

6'9" 240 with balls >>> 6'9" 220 who can run the floor and dunk

 

[Yuma]

Kurt Rambis was a very good player so when you compare Amundson to Rambis it's a compliment.

I didn't say Rambis wasn't. Did you know Rambis used to be the all time SCORING leader at his college? Rebounder I would believe, scorer, now that's something!

 

[mojorizen7]

I didn't say Rambis wasn't. Did you know Rambis used to be the all time SCORING leader at his college? Rebounder I would believe, scorer, now that's something!

Kurt Thomas lead the nation(Div 1) in scoring and rebounding at TCU.
Crazy.

I remember getting my black "pre-taped" Rambis glasses at the gates attending SUNS games back in the day. LMAO

 

[Chaplin]

Better at what? Scoring some points sure...dunking the ball sure....being athletic maybe....

We'll see Chap.

I don't see Warrick mixing it up inside,blocking shots,or bringing the same level of energy that a Lou brings to the table.

Trust me,i'm not saying that Lou is a make or break piece of the puzzle here(a vet like Kurt Thomas is/was), but from what i know of Warrick(which isn't alot, granted) he's NOT going to help fill the gaps that exist with this current roster of shooters like Lou could have.

That i do know. There's a hole in the middle and Lou's game is better suited to help plug that hole over a guy like Warrick who is a bit redundant IMO.

6'9" 240 with balls >>> 6'9" 220 who can run the floor and dunk

Just curious, but how much have you seen Warrick play? And was he the primary PF at those times you watched him?

 

[mojorizen7]

Just curious, but how much have you seen Warrick play? And was he the primary PF at those times you watched him?

Yeah like i said,not much. ESPN highlights,tidbits here and there. He's not a banger like Lou is though,which was my point.
Warrick's another uptempo guy except he cant shoot the ball or rebound particularly well.

How much have you seen of him?

Not much on youtube other than dunks,which is unfortunately the case with any player on youtube these days it seems :/

 

[Chaplin]

Yeah like i said,not much. ESPN highlights,tidbits here and there. He's not a banger like Lou is though,which was my point.
Warrick's another uptempo guy except he cant shoot the ball or rebound particularly well.

How much have you seen of him?

Not much on youtube other than dunks,which is unfortunately the case with any player on youtube these days it seems :/

Like you, I haven't seen much of him, but I have seen him a few times when he was with Memphis and of course with Chicago. I always thought he'd be a good fit here, but I know he is still a better player than Lou. The bigger question is about how he will be integrated into the 2nd unit. I just think Warrick at 20 minutes is more valuable than Lou at 15 (which is the absolute maximum Lou would ever get).

 

[Mainstreet]

Warrick really seems to have good speed, tremendous leaping ability, a slasher and a finisher. He seems built for a running team. I think he needs to make good use of his athleticism to be effective. He certainly is not going to bang opponents or back PFs down. If the Suns are running he should do great. If the Suns are not running Nash will have to get him slashing to the basket.

 

[Chaplin]

Warrick really seems to have good speed, tremendous leaping ability, a slasher and a finisher. He seems built for a running team. I think he needs to make good use of his athleticism to be effective. He certainly is not going to bang opponents or back PFs down. If the Suns are running he should do great. If the Suns are not running Nash will have to get him slashing to the basket.

He once had 16 rebounds in a game against us. LOL

 

[Errntknght]

Chaplin,

Fans always overrate the players on their own teams and Amundson is a perfect example of that.

I didn't rate Amundson at all, I rated the second unit he was a key part of, and I doubt you'll dispute that it was one hell of a second unit. In fact, I agree that Warrick is better in Amundson in the abstract, (but then Earl Clark is probably better than Warrick in the abstract.) The only relavant question is which of them does the most for our second unit - and I noticed in a later post you yourself alluded to that being the key unanswered question about Warrick. You must have been overcome with a fit of homerism when you forgot about that in the post I'm referencing.

Usually, second units are of secondary importance but I think the key to the Suns success this year is as much the second unit as the first. Keep Lou and add Childress and it becomes even better than last years group - and thats one kick a$$ second unit.

 

[mojorizen7]

Usually, second units are of secondary importance but I think the key to the Suns success this year is as much the second unit as the first. Keep Lou and add Childress and it becomes even better than last years group - and thats one kick a$$ second unit.

Absolutely. We'd still be relatively soft and weak upfront,but what Lou brings to the table is more important than what Warrick is likely to bring.....unless the rook Lawal can contribute there,which is an unknown, whereas we know what Lou can bring.

 

[Chaplin]

Again you're both overrating Amundson. Errntknight, don't go saying you don't rate Amundson and then go ahead and overrate him in the next sentence.

Lou was a great fan favorite, but is he worth 4 million over 4 years? Absolutely not. Keep Lou and add Childress and it's better than last year's group? Well, duh. So you're saying that losing Lou and adding Childress and Warrick makes our bench WORSE than last year's? Come on now.

 

[Irish]

If Warrick were just a better rebounder, I'd be more comfortable with him.

Offensively I have no doubt he's better than Lous. He reminds me of Marion when going up for the Ally oop and his abiltiy to drive the basket IMHO looks to be better than Marion. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/warriha01.htmlTraining camp will tell a lot, because it sure looks like the 2n'd team will hve to continue to step it up.

On the plus side, Warrick is not a mindless gunner. By contrast, Marion did not shoot over 33% for three but once starting in 2004-05. Miami and Dallas really limited his three point shooting. .http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mariosh01.html

 

[Errntknght]

Chaplin,

Keep Lou and add Childress and it's better than last year's group? Well, duh.

Nice, I got you to think one step with me.

So you're saying that losing Lou and adding Childress and Warrick makes our bench WORSE than last year's? Come on now.

The familiar Chaplin twist. Obviously I didn't say that. Childress figures to be a positive addition to our second unit in any case. Putting Warrick in place of Amundson, replaces a known key ingredient with an unknown in the recipe. Two more simple steps... are you still with me?

If Warrick throws himself heart and soul into the second unit and really buckles down on defense the chemistry may still be there. In that case his scoring may compensate for his weak rebounding and shot blocking, compared to Lou's.

Personally, I prefer the rebounding and blocked shots to scoring because I like the shock effect strong defense has. But if Warrick fits in and the second unit rocks and rolls better than it did last year I'll have to give Warrick his due.

I thought you might be interested to know that the EFF rating the NBA gives players, doesn't agree with your relative assessment of Amundson and Warrick - +5.12 for Lou vs +0.67 for Hakim. Ewwww, 0.67 sounds really pukky...

 

[Chaplin]

Chaplin,

Nice, I got you to think one step with me.



The familiar Chaplin twist. Obviously I didn't say that. Childress figures to be a positive addition to our second unit in any case. Putting Warrick in place of Amundson, replaces a known key ingredient with an unknown in the recipe. Two more simple steps... are you still with me?

No need to get personal. Not like you to go that route.

If Warrick throws himself heart and soul into the second unit and really buckles down on defense the chemistry may still be there. In that case his scoring may compensate for his weak rebounding and shot blocking, compared to Lou's.

Personally, I prefer the rebounding and blocked shots to scoring because I like the shock effect strong defense has. But if Warrick fits in and the second unit rocks and rolls better than it did last year I'll have to give Warrick his due.

I thought you might be interested to know that the EFF rating the NBA gives players, doesn't agree with your relative assessment of Amundson and Warrick - +5.12 for Lou vs +0.67 for Hakim. Ewwww, 0.67 sounds really pukky...

Why are you making Lou out to be so good? He is an end-of-the-bench role player, and will be for any team. You obviously think he's this top-tier rebounder and shot blocker. He isn't. Again, you are overrating the guy. Don't get me wrong, I love Lou Amundson, he supplied energy every night, but he isn't a crucial piece of the Phoenix Suns. There's a reason why Channing Frye was the first big off the bench and not Lou Amundson.

I want some rebounding and defense too, but Lou doesn't provide enough to justify the kind of money he's asking for.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You're right, but he's not that special in the long run. Players like him are a dime a dozen. Limited skillset, ability to energize a crowd, get a few offensive rebounds. I don't think it's a stretch at all to think that Lawal could fill that role.

I love Lou, but like I said before, he's probably asking for Hakim Warrick money, and he's just not worth that. Not on the Suns, anyway.

i like lou too (not the love that cheese has for him), but recognize his shortcomings. that said, he's definitely not a dime a dozen. if he were he'd be signing for league minimum. the fact that he will likely earn more indicates he has more value.

i agree that lawal can likely fill his role, but that's an unknown as yet, while lou is at least a known commodity.

finally, i agree that he's not worth what he's likely commanding, on this present iterration of the suns.

 

[Errntknght]

Chaplin,

You obviously think he's this top-tier rebounder and shot blocker. He isn't. Again, you are overrating the guy.

Among PFs and Cs who played over a 1000 minutes last year - there are 89 of them - Amundson's rebounding rate was 25th from the top and Warricks was 75th - 15th from the bottom. Amundson was 12th in block rate and Warrick was 82nd - 8th worst! Its true that Amundson is not quite in the top tier(and I never claimed he was), but the guy you're comparing him to is down in very dregs. In comparison to Hakim, Lou is a monster in the paint.

I don't bother to rate guys for things which have nice simple stats to do the job for you. You might try it some time.

Ouchie,

finally, i agree that he's not worth what he's likely commanding, on this present iterration of the suns.

We don't have the figure yet but as you might guess, I think he's worth more than Warrick on this Suns team. And I'd pay it, even at this juncture, because its not too far fetched, IMO, that this team could contend. I'm sure everyone is writing us off because we lost Amare but adding Childress to the second unit gives it a good bump up, so its a matter Gentry finding a way for the first unit not to slip much. The worst part is that putting Hedo in his place doesn't help the defense and hurts the rebounding. Lopez will have to have a healthy year and step it up some, too. The offense should be okay, strangely enough, because we have enough good shooters that Amare shots will be put in capable hands. And we'll certainly be running more plays for other guys, and have more if not better 3pt shooting.

To me the key thing is the second unit being effective for 20 minutes per game so everyone will be playing on relatively fresh legs through the fourth quarter. Under D'A we pooped out at the end of games but playing this way we could be putting heavy pressure on the opps down the stretch.

 

[Errntknght]

Ouchie,

i agree that lawal can likely fill his role, but that's an unknown as yet, while lou is at least a known commodity.

I don't know about you but I'd be inclined to gamble on Lawal, assuming Lou doesn't return. Go into training camp with an open mind, but if Warrick doesn't go all out for the job on the second unit then put Lawal in the slot and bet that by the end of the year he's pulling his weight. At 20 per game he'll finish up with as many minutes as youngsters usually take two or three years to get.

 

[Irish]

Chaplin,

Among PFs and Cs who played over a 1000 minutes last year - there are 89 of them - Amundson's rebounding rate was 25th from the top and Warricks was 75th - 15th from the bottom. Amundson was 12th in block rate and Warrick was 82nd - 8th worst! Its true that Amundson is not quite in the top tier(and I never claimed he was), but the guy you're comparing him to is down in very dregs. In comparison to Hakim, Lou is a monster in the paint.

We don't have the figure yet but as you might guess, I think he's worth more than Warrick on this Suns team. .

I suspect Warrick is not just his stats. He played on teams with real centers: Gasol and then Bogut (with Detroit he played SF). Amundson played like a center on offense because Frye was on the wing. Everything else equal, the difference between the two will not be as great.

My concern is that niether is physical enough for the playoffs and playoff type teams.

 

[Chaplin]

Chaplin,

Among PFs and Cs who played over a 1000 minutes last year - there are 89 of them - Amundson's rebounding rate was 25th from the top and Warricks was 75th - 15th from the bottom. Amundson was 12th in block rate and Warrick was 82nd - 8th worst! Its true that Amundson is not quite in the top tier(and I never claimed he was), but the guy you're comparing him to is down in very dregs. In comparison to Hakim, Lou is a monster in the paint.

I don't bother to rate guys for things which have nice simple stats to do the job for you. You might try it some time.

Ouchie,

We don't have the figure yet but as you might guess, I think he's worth more than Warrick on this Suns team. And I'd pay it, even at this juncture, because its not too far fetched, IMO, that this team could contend. I'm sure everyone is writing us off because we lost Amare but adding Childress to the second unit gives it a good bump up, so its a matter Gentry finding a way for the first unit not to slip much. The worst part is that putting Hedo in his place doesn't help the defense and hurts the rebounding. Lopez will have to have a healthy year and step it up some, too. The offense should be okay, strangely enough, because we have enough good shooters that Amare shots will be put in capable hands. And we'll certainly be running more plays for other guys, and have more if not better 3pt shooting.

To me the key thing is the second unit being effective for 20 minutes per game so everyone will be playing on relatively fresh legs through the fourth quarter. Under D'A we pooped out at the end of games but playing this way we could be putting heavy pressure on the opps down the stretch.

Wow, you'd pay 4 million a year for 4 years for Lou Amundson? How is that not overrating him?

 

[Irish]

I've heard $ million OVER four years, ie a million a year. That is not an unreasonable per year. If he getts $4 million for one year, I'd say he was overpaid.

 

[Chaplin]

I've heard $ million OVER four years, ie a million a year. That is not an unreasonable per year. If he getts $4 million for one year, I'd say he was overpaid.

Where did you hear that? If he was looking for that, SOME team would have already signed him already, easy.

 

[Covert Rain]

I still think all things being equal give me Lou. The only thing I think AW has over him is some athletic ability and a better shot. The Suns signed him because he can catch the ball in transition. They are looking to get more of the Shawn Marion type transition points out of him.

At the end of the day the answer is do you think AW will deliver more off the bench then Lou. I would probably say factoring in both sides of the ball, paint play etc....it's going to be a wash.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I still think all things being equal give me Lou. The only thing I think AW has over him is some athletic ability and a better shot. The Suns signed him because he can catch the ball in transition. They are looking to get more of the Shawn Marion type transition points out of him.

At the end of the day the answer is do you think AW will deliver more off the bench then Lou. I would probably say factoring in both sides of the ball, paint play etc....it's going to be a wash.

i actually agree. Although I'd be shocked if we had to pay Lou anything more than 3 million bucks and he would have been worth every penny. He's an ultimate dirt worker who actually changed the momentum of certain games. I don't think we'll be able to say that about Warrick, who's overpaid IMO. Dude's game does nothing for me, especially at the PF slot where he's gonna get pushed around like a rag-doll.

 

[Irish]

I still think that getting back Jones or force feeding Lawal makes more sense than signing Lou. I was first turn on to Lou from some of the articles written in Draft Express and noted he was what the Suns needed. Now I'm getting the same vibe from DX about Lawall, except that Gani is more physical.

Considering they also have Collins and I'm guyess a buyback deal for Jones; I think the Suns are covered.

******************************
I don't know the Suns will get Jones back, but I think it is a real possibility. If the Raptors cut him, the Suns could take him while still on waivers. Since he doesn't have a guarentee contract, the Raptors aren't likely to keep him and would be a nice stopgap for the Suns since he would still not have a guarneed contract.