ITDS: It's the Defense, Stupid

[Buckybird]

The O has been so terrible that the Cards haven't won even when they score on ST and defense which they do almost every game.

The defense doesn't get off the hook. Too many long scoring drives allowed at the start of the games and at the start of the second half and after the Cards have had one of their rare long drives to use the tired out and gave up excuse.

and can't hold a lead...in like forever!!!

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I really believe it is scheme related. Adrian Wilson has a lot of talent. Probably a ROH player.

Any Cardinal fan can tell you his strengths and weaknesses. Yet our coach can't even identify what a layman knows.

Lack of containment. Over pursuit. Constant off side penalties since the scheme does not generate pass rush on its own. Biting on every play action despite obvious run downs....

I am a manager for my company. One guy on my team fails and you address that guy. The whole team fails, then my boss addresses me. Kerouac (who really has been an amazing poster lately) is dead on, we have a team failure. That is a Bill Davis' problem.

 

[Duckjake]

I really believe it is scheme related. Adrian Wilson has a lot of talent. Probably a ROH player.

Any Cardinal fan can tell you his strengths and weaknesses. Yet our coach can't even identify what a layman knows.

Lack of containment. Over pursuit. Constant off side penalties since the scheme does not generate pass rush on its own. Biting on every play action despite obvious run downs....

I am a manager for my company. One guy on my team fails and you address that guy. The whole team fails, then my boss addresses me. Kerouac (who really has been an amazing poster lately) is dead on, we have a team failure. That is a Bill Davis' problem.

There are some places where Davis' would have been fired already. Can't get a new OC because the "in whiz we trust" hasn't worn off yet.

Davis is a great LB coach. Just got promoted beyond his capabilities.

 

[Big D]

The O has been so terrible that the Cards haven't won even when they score on ST and defense which they do almost every game.

The defense doesn't get off the hook. Too many long scoring drives allowed at the start of the games and at the start of the second half and after the Cards have had one of their rare long drives to use the tired out and gave up excuse.

No one is letting the D off the hook. Just pointing out the reoccurring patterns in most of our games. Certainly not making any excuses or saying they are "tired out." In fact I said they tend to just quit in most cases. Mentally I do believe the fact that our offense is about the most pathetic in the league is a factor, but I am not saying or implying they get a pass because of it.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

The ineptitude of the offense is really overshadowing how terribly disappointing our defense has been. The plan was to use an improved, more consistent defense to help staunch the tide while the offense finds an identity for the stretch run and try and sneak out with a divisional championship.

Last year's defense averaged 20.3 PPG, good enough for 14th in the NFL in scoring. This year's defense is DEAD LAST in scoring, allowing 29.2 PPG.

Yes, Derek Anderson is ugly and Max Hall has no discernable talent, but this team is very bad because the defense hasn't been able to keep the offense in games while it figures out what it's good at.

Blame Whis if you must. Blame Derek Anderson and Max Hall. Blame Larry Fitzgerald and Levi Brown and Beanie Wells. But the real responsible party for why our team is so bad isn't on the field with those guys.

I agree. Not re-signing Dansby is THE biggest of many blunders by Graves. Everyone knows I was in favor of keeping Rolle but KD was the key. BUt to some, he was easily replaceable. For those wondering 4-3 or 3-4, I think it's pretty obvious Whiz is going with, and staying with the 3-4. The problem is someone forgot that you need LB's to play a 3-4. There is not 1 legit starting LB on the roster. Washington my be eventually. Do you really trust Graves to stockpile some good LB talent? This is the guy who gave us Orlando Huff, Travis LaBoy, Joey Porter, Cody Brown,and other scrubs but let Dansby and Calvin Pace walk away for nothing. Other than Washington and Schoefield, what LB on the current roster would you keep next year. Paris Lenon has had probably his bet year and he's still garbage. Haggans is done,Porter is done, Hayes is done. Will Davis has been in the league 2 years and been on IR for 2 years.

I can still hear Graves ih his Cleveland voice, "Karlos is a guy we've targeted as a core player and we're going to keep our core together". I think the "core" has shrunk significantly to about Fitz, Moxie , and Dockett.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I really think Davis will be fired at the end of the season.

 

[kerouac9]

Our wishes will be done no later than a week after the season ends IMO.

Wiz's first decision must be: do we run the 3-4 or the 4-3. If it's the 3-4 I want Kevin Greene. The 4-3 bring in John Fox. With the laid back personalities of the HC & most the other staff, a fiery DC is just what the doctor ordered!!!

Kevin Greene is not coming here. He was an option when we fired Clancy Pendergast, and he didn't even interview, IIRC. I think that he's the heir apparent to Dick LeBeau as the Steelers DC, and so he's rather bide his time there than go looking for greener pastures (pun not intended).

John Fox is going to get a head coaching gig somewhere if/when he's fired in Carolina. Maybe in San Francisco, maybe in Chicago (if they melt down at the end of the season, he'd be an amazing fit there and you know Peppers would be lobbying for him), maybe in Dallas, maybe in Houston.

I agree with Cbus, this team is sticking with the 3-4 come hell or high water. The only argument to switch is if our Top 5 pick is obviously a 4-3 pass rushing DE (and it's possible if we're not looking at the CB or WR). Then you almost have to force the scheme. But we have a bunch of 3-4 DL on the roster right now. Even if we lose Watson and Branch this offseason, a switch essentially gives up on Dan Williams, and you can't get value for him a year into his career in a trade.

I really believe it is scheme related. Adrian Wilson has a lot of talent. Probably a ROH player.

Any Cardinal fan can tell you his strengths and weaknesses. Yet our coach can't even identify what a layman knows.

Lack of containment. Over pursuit. Constant off side penalties since the scheme does not generate pass rush on its own. Biting on every play action despite obvious run downs....

I am a manager for my company. One guy on my team fails and you address that guy. The whole team fails, then my boss addresses me. Kerouac (who really has been an amazing poster lately) is dead on, we have a team failure. That is a Bill Davis' problem.

The players are obviously frustrated with Bill Davis. Coach Whis is always referring to players being out of position on defense. Why in the world is the defense still confused more than halfway through the season?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Kerouac (who really has been an amazing poster lately) is dead on, we have a team failure.

LMAO Well thats because he is the most "glass half empty", negative, contrarian on the board and we are on a 5 game losing streak and Suck royally.

LOL OF COURSE he's been on point. He said we were going to suck and we do.

I was thinking how the 2 years we had success with this team k9 was no where to be found. He pops back up this offseason and - POOF - we are SOC.

Coincidence?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I really think Davis will be fired at the end of the season.

Theres no way he's not right?

Screw Russ Grimm and his big time salary. Ship him out and pay Kubiak and Phillips and lets get this ship righted.

 

[Duckjake]

LMAO Well thats because he is the most "glass half empty", negative, contrarian on the board and we are on a 5 game losing streak and Suck royally.

LOL OF COURSE he's been on point. He said we were going to suck and we do.

I was thinking how the 2 years we had success with this team k9 was no where to be found. He pops back up this offseason and - POOF - we are SOC.

Coincidence?

Nonsense.

K9 never disappeared.

And there were a few other people talking about the mistakes the Cards were making in the offseason.

Especially when it came to the Defense and the remaking of the offensive line.

But I'm sure those who were in favor of the changes are still glad the guys are gone. Just like those of us who thought it was a mistake to let them go will always think we were right.

 

[Hypothesis]

Kevin Greene is not coming here. He was an option when we fired Clancy Pendergast, and he didn't even interview, IIRC. I think that he's the heir apparent to Dick LeBeau as the Steelers DC, and so he's rather bide his time there than go looking for greener pastures (pun not intended).

I think you're confusing Kevin Green for Keith Butler.

 

[MadCardDisease]

OLB for sure, but I'm not sure about CB. It's not time to replace Toler or DRC, and I don't think that Michael Adams is the deep pit of terribleness that he was last season. Maybe it's because Adrian Wilson has looked like an over-heated piece of rye bread all season long.

I don't expect a quarterback to be available when we pick in the draft, but we better take a pass rush specialist somewhere, because the guys that we have attempting to put pressure on the quarterback is just not getting the job done. Unfortunately, there isn't a wealth of OLB talent in this draft pool. We might be better off switching to a 4-3 defense and drafting one of the top five or seven picks. On the other hand, maybe you take a chance on Adrian Clayborn of Iowa and hope for the best.

With our luck we'll take Gabe Carmini and we'll have Levi Brown, Pt. 2.

I like Toler and Adams to come in as Nickle or Dime backs. However I think it wouldn't hurt to add another stud to the defensive backfield. Prince Amukamara opposite of DRC sure sounds nice with Toler and Adams coming off the bench.

I do agree that a stud pash rusher is the biggest priority. Preferably at the LB position. However I think there may be better value at CB or DL in the first round than at LB this year.

 

[Duckjake]

I like Toler and Adams to come in as Nickle or Dime backs. However I think it wouldn't hurt to add another stud to the defensive backfield. Prince Amukamara opposite of DRC sure sounds nice with Toler and Adams coming off the bench.

I do agree that a stud pash rusher is the biggest priority. Preferably at the LB position. However I think there may be better value at CB or DL in the first round than at LB this year.

Repeat after me "Sam Acho".



:homer:

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Nonsense.

K9 never disappeared.

And there were a few other people talking about the mistakes the Cards were making in the offseason.

Especially when it came to the Defense and the remaking of the offensive line.

But I'm sure those who were in favor of the changes are still glad the guys are gone. Just like those of us who thought it was a mistake to let them go will always think we were right.

I was being toungue in cheek DJ.

My bigger point is that its not that K9 all of a sudden started being the most level headed poster recently. Hes just always been pretty pessimisstic and negative (about Washington, about Beanie, about QB's) and when you are in a 5 game skid and the entire team looks like *****....well of course thats going to seem precisent.

In fact taking it a step further, other then 2008 and 2009, being negative is almost ALWAYS going to be right with this franchise. Hence the Darksiders.

So my question was, if K9 would have been being this negative before 08 and 09 and we went won the division twice......would he have been seen as being on point? LOL probably not.

Saying all that I actually like K9 and his posts and value what he brings to the table.

But if you are always negative in your outlook, well then your going to be right more often then not with this team. Especially this year after this 5 game skid.

 

[Duckjake]

I get you.

It sure would be easier to not be negative about our team if during the first drive of the game the Cards didn't, once again, leave an outside rusher, Tamba Hali no less, unblocked with a free run at DA.

 

[Duckjake]

Speaking of the defense. Has anyone seen Kerry Rhodes lately?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Do you really trust Graves to stockpile some good LB talent? This is the guy who gave us Orlando Huff, Travis LaBoy, Joey Porter, Cody Brown,and other scrubs but let Dansby and Calvin Pace walk away for nothing.

holy crap, if this doesn't sum up why we're screwed until Graves' fat ass is canned, I don't know what does.

 

[Dayman]

The scheme definitely factors into the defense's problems, but I think personnel decisions are equally at fault. Since Whis has been here, most of the biggest personnel mistakes have been on the defensive side. Each year he's cut one well-paid defensive player who was signed to be a starter the year before (Holt, Laboy, McFadden, probably Porter this year).

Only drafting three starters on D in four years doesn't help, either. Buster Davis was supposed to be the heir apparent to Dansby, even though his physical makeup made him a horrible fit for the 3-4. Cody Brown was drafted to make up for the loss of Berry/Okeafor. Rashad Johnson's lack of development screwed up the Rolle replacement plan. And what was the common thread in most of these FA and draft busts? They made up for their physical limitations with intangibles. That philosophy has blinded Graves/Whis on way too many decisions. Sooner or later, you're bound to start feeling the effects of so many bad moves. Add in an inept defensive coordinator and that process accelerates.

I also think the allocation of resources is kind of skewed. The team sunk tons of money and draft picks into the defensive line and safeties, while the CBs and LBs have mostly been filled with marginal free agents and undrafted rookies.

Getting rid of Davis will help, but the FO desperately needs someone who's better at identifying quality defensive players.

 

[desertdawg]

I put some onus on the coaching staff for not running/designing an offense to protect the deficincies of the personnel on that side of the ball--something you're quietly seeing them start to do now. There were a lot of 2TE sets that we were running yesterday, and a lot of play-action. We should have been doing that in Week 1.

But the putrid state of affairs right now falls mainly on the 11 guys who take the field when the opposing offense has the ball.

You had me thinking on this one homie. Everybody in here has been wishing for the O-line to do better at protection, and have some play calls and extra bodies in there to help out. It was nice to see a running back not having to choose one of the two blitzing drive killers.

The play action pass helped set up the pocket, TOP wasn't a issue for once.
Run game did get its feet early, DA didn't turn it over, but DA didn't score, only produced meaningless numbers at the end....don't want to go there (again)

Point is, if defense had shown up like they have at other times, we might have stood a chance. I was one to blame it all on DA, I still kinda do, but I wanted to believe in our defense with the talent we DO HAVE.

So I am totally on the can our D.C. train... choo choo. We need a big change.

 

[WarnerHOF]

The scheme definitely factors into the defense's problems, but I think personnel decisions are equally at fault. Since Whis has been here, most of the biggest personnel mistakes have been on the defensive side. Each year he's cut one well-paid defensive player who was signed to be a starter the year before (Holt, Laboy, McFadden, probably Porter this year).

Only drafting three starters on D in four years doesn't help, either. Buster Davis was supposed to be the heir apparent to Dansby, even though his physical makeup made him a horrible fit for the 3-4. Cody Brown was drafted to make up for the loss of Berry/Okeafor. Rashad Johnson's lack of development screwed up the Rolle replacement plan. And what was the common thread in most of these FA and draft busts? They made up for their physical limitations with intangibles. That philosophy has blinded Graves/Whis on way too many decisions. Sooner or later, you're bound to start feeling the effects of so many bad moves. Add in an inept defensive coordinator and that process accelerates.

I also think the allocation of resources is kind of skewed. The team sunk tons of money and draft picks into the defensive line and safeties, while the CBs and LBs have mostly been filled with marginal free agents and undrafted rookies.

Getting rid of Davis will help, but the FO desperately needs someone who's better at identifying quality defensive players.

Cody Brown and Buster Davis were far from being physically limited players aside from Buster's height but height didn't really stop greats like Mills, Thomas etc. I believe both players were cut because they didn't have the intangibles to make it in the pros.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Speaking of the defense. Has anyone seen Kerry Rhodes lately?

he's getting fitted for his pro bowl jersey .

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Repeat after me "Sam Acho".



:homer:

wasn't he very highly regarded earlier on? The times I have seen him play he's been very good.

Speaking of being homer, another reason players should enter the NFL when they can, Cameron Heyward has cost himself millions by going back to OSU. He probably would have been a top 15 pick last year, now I see him at the end of round 1 and way into round 2.

All that and he still had to watch a Jim Tressel offense for another year .

 

[kerouac9]

Cody Brown and Buster Davis were far from being physically limited players aside from Buster's height but height didn't really stop greats like Mills, Thomas etc. I believe both players were cut because they didn't have the intangibles to make it in the pros.

Maybe with Cody, although he was always small for the OLB position.

But Buster had a bad attitude, didn't want to work with Lott, and was freelancing all over the place in the preseason. He's been a linebacker-of-last-resort for the Colts two years ago, but wasn't with a team in 2009 and didn't find anywhere to latch on this year.

If anything, Buster Davis was an example of a player the staff thought could overcome his physical limitations with his leadership and intangibles, and that didn't come to pass. Turned out he was an a-hole.

 

[oaken1]

If I had my choice of D coordinators, I would be hoping Singletary gets fired as HC......that defense got real stout the first week he took over as DC there,....it has slacked since he made HC.

 

[kerouac9]

If I had my choice of D coordinators, I would be hoping Singletary gets fired as HC......that defense got real stout the first week he took over as DC there,....it has slacked since he made HC.

Wrong answer. Singletary has NEVER been a DC. When he was hired, he was an assistant head coach/LB coach. I'd love to see the 49ers DC brought in. His name is Greg Manusky, and I'd LOVE to have him brought in if the 49ers clean house. He's a Wade Phillips disciple.