It's so simple...Nobody wants to play for the Cards unless they have to!

[Metal Militia]

Fellas,

I think we all need to calm down and relax. I don't thank that Graves or Green is to blame regarding the lack of talent coming in for visits.

We can all point to one thing: The pathetic W-L record that the Cardinals have piled up in their pathetic history.

I picture it like this: Graves calls the agents for the players that he wants to bring in. Those players obviously have other teams to choose from as well. The agent goes to their client and says, "where do you want to go first?" The player instructs the agent to find a good deal somewhere and if you can't, we will reluctantly schedule a visit with the Cardinals and attempt to take them to the cleaners.

Get over it. Get used to it. Unless the Cardinals can develop their draft picks and get the team winning some games, they will never attract the so called first day big fish to come via free agency. Players will only come here if they have no other real options.

Develop your own talent through the draft and it will all change.

It is almost comical. It is kind of like the Cardinals are the nerdy kid asking the hot chick to prom only to be told that someone already asked her out.

 

[vikesfan]

Originally posted by Metal Militia
Fellas,

I think we all need to calm down and relax. I don't thank that Graves or Green is to blame regarding the lack of talent coming in for visits.

We can all point to one thing: The pathetic W-L record that the Cardinals have piled up in their pathetic history.

I picture it like this: Graves calls the agents for the players that he wants to bring in. Those players obviously have other teams to choose from as well. The agent goes to their client and says, "where do you want to go first?" The player instructs the agent to find a good deal somewhere and if you can't, we will reluctantly schedule a visit with the Cardinals and attempt to take them to the cleaners.

Get over it. Get used to it. Unless the Cardinals can develop their draft picks and get the team winning some games, they will never attract the so called first day big fish to come via free agency. Players will only come here if they have no other real options.

Develop your own talent through the draft and it will all change.

It is almost comical. It is kind of like the Cardinals are the nerdy kid asking the hot chick to prom only to be told that someone already asked her out.

No just give players a bigger upfront bonus. You give Wade 12 million he is here. You give Kearse 20 million he is here.

Players care about upfront bonus money. They will go to whatever team will give them the most upfront money. And a comprable term deal.

Give them a bigger upfront bonus and they will come.


The problem is the Bidwells have no income outside of football so they can't make this big out of pocket payments.

Holiday they dropped out of the bidding. Colvin got a bigger upfront bonus 6 million from NE then the Cards offered even though there long term deal was better.

Why did Starks and D Smith come here. Better money.

Real simple.

And if your owners don't have a business outside of football generating money you are srewed.

 

[CardShark]

Re: Re: It's so simple...Nobody wants to play for the Cards unless they have to!

Originally posted by vikesfan
No just give players a bigger upfront bonus. You give Wade 12 million he is here. You give Kearse 20 million he is here.

Players care about upfront bonus money. They will go to whatever team will give them the most upfront money. And a comprable term deal.

Give them a bigger upfront bonus and they will come.


The problem is the Bidwells have no income outside of football so they can't make this big out of pocket payments.

Holiday they dropped out of the bidding. Colvin got a bigger upfront bonus 6 million from NE then the Cards offered even though there long term deal was better.

Why did Starks and D Smith come here. Better money.

Real simple.

And if your owners don't have a business outside of football generating money you are srewed.

As was the case with Emmitt Smith.

 

[Metal Militia]

Re: Re: It's so simple...Nobody wants to play for the Cards unless they have to!

Originally posted by vikesfan
No just give players a bigger upfront bonus. You give Wade 12 million he is here. You give Kearse 20 million he is here.

Players care about upfront bonus money. They will go to whatever team will give them the most upfront money. And a comprable term deal.

Give them a bigger upfront bonus and they will come.


The problem is the Bidwells have no income outside of football so they can't make this big out of pocket payments.

Holiday they dropped out of the bidding. Colvin got a bigger upfront bonus 6 million from NE then the Cards offered even though there long term deal was better.

Why did Starks and D Smith come here. Better money.

Real simple.

And if your owners don't have a business outside of football generating money you are srewed.

While I see your point, I will disagree that paying out your ass for a big name helps your team. If I were the owner and I gave Kearse $20 million bonus, I would kick my own ass.

Paying out the nose is not the answer to all problems. Look at Danny boy in Washington. He has been doing that for players and coaches for a while now. What did that get him? Nothing.

For a success model, all you have to do is look at the Patriots. I am not a fan of theirs, but I respect the way that they develop their OWN drafted talent. By doing so, they don't have to blow their wad on on big free agents. Instead they spread it around for the "belly" of the team. That being said, if they do need the occasional "big fish" via free agency, they are going to have a great chance because of the talent and reputation already in place.

Winning gives a team so much. Fan support, money, reputaion, and a positive perception of your organization by players on other teams.

As I said before, the Cardinals need to invest heavily in preparing for the draft. It is the single most important day in a teams season. You single handedly get to choose who you want on your team.

The 2004 Draft is where the turnaround has to begin. With a proven coach in Dennis Green, he should be able to take the picks and mold them into productive players for years to come. I am also hoping that he can take some of the "busts " from the past few years and get them going in the right direction. It is time for Wendell Bryant to stop being the turd. He needs to make other guys look like turds. Leonard Davis needs to be challenged to get back to his rookie year form where he was flat out nasty.

 

[vikesfan]

Re: Re: Re: It's so simple...Nobody wants to play for the Cards unless they have to!

Originally posted by Metal Militia
While I see your point, I will disagree that paying out your ass for a big name helps your team. If I were the owner and I gave Kearse $20 million bonus, I would kick my own ass.

QUOTE: Paying out the nose is not the answer to all problems. Look at Danny boy in Washington. He has been doing that for players and coaches for a while now. What did that get him? Nothing.

RESPONSE: If he let a real GM select the players he would be a SB contender every year the problem is he picks the players if he just supplied money and hired a good coach the Skins would have been winners.

QUOTE: For a success model, all you have to do is look at the Patriots. I am not a fan of theirs, but I respect the way that they develop their OWN drafted talent. By doing so, they don't have to blow their wad on on big free agents. Instead they spread it around for the "belly" of the team. That being said, if they do need the occasional "big fish" via free agency, they are going to have a great chance because of the talent and reputation already in place.

RESPONSE: I don't know if you are the same poster who keeps bringing up the Pats but they did it through FA. In their 1st SB win they signed 15 or so FAs and had 7 starting on SB Sunday. And Big Names: Phifer Buckley Cox C Johnson Patten etc and in their second SB year more big name FAs: Washington Colvin Harris Poole.

ALL IT REQUIRES is money. THEY SIGNED D JACKSON and STARKS cause they gave them more money then anyone else. They could have had Kearse 18 million 19? and he is here. Colvin went with NE cause of up front money he got a million more to got a winner. Now you give 2 or 3 more and he goes to a loser.

Winning gives a team so much. Fan support, money, reputaion, and a positive perception of your organization by players on other teams.

As I said before, the Cardinals need to invest heavily in preparing for the draft. It is the single most important day in a teams season. You single handedly get to choose who you want on your team.

QUOTE: The 2004 Draft is where the turnaround has to begin. With a proven coach in Dennis Green, he should be able to take the picks and mold them into productive players for years to come. I am also hoping that he can take some of the "busts " from the past few years and get them going in the right direction. It is time for Wendell Bryant to stop being the turd. He needs to make other guys look like turds. Leonard Davis needs to be challenged to get back to his rookie year form where he was flat out nasty.

RESPONSE: The draft is much riskier then FA. Look at TB they abandonded the draft sure they had some good pick but they key to winning the SB was the big name FA they added the defense. And the offense which came almost completely through FA and a trade (which is like FA). N.O. abandonded the draft and became a consistent winner. Every SB winner recently or participant has had numerous key FAs on the team. NE BAL STL OAK TB.

If you have players who need to be motivated you are screwed.

 

[Arvos]

Flawed Logic....

I think your thinking is a bit flawed but you do have a valid point. Case in point, DETROIT LIONS........In the last several years the Lions have had a very good track record in acquiring free agents. For the most part every player they have targeted they have been able to sign. Why???? I'm not really sure. It certainly is not the wonderful weather, not the beautiful city......
Partially they spoil the FA they bring in and won't let them leave until they have their signature on the contract. Brian Walker, Dre Bly, and now with the signing of Damian Woody it continues. I think it comes down to fan support......
Michigan is sports crazy.....fans wait for the FA at the airport, and at the facilitys. Even with the lousy record the Lions have had two years in a row with sell outs and tickets are scarce to come by. The Pistons and Red Wings are the same way, any FA they want they are able to sign. Detroit is one of the least desirable places in the world to live yet they continue to sign quality players.....and your guess is as good as mine why the Cards haven't got that down yet. Arizona is beautiful, Green is a great coach, and the team looks to be on the right track.....so who is messing this thing up.

 

[arthurracoon]

Nice to see you again Arvos.

I agree...we need more fan support.

Unfortunately, in AZ the fan support is only going to come from winning as everyone here is a transplant (mostly)

 

[vikesfan]

Re: Flawed Logic....

Originally posted by Arvos
I think your thinking is a bit flawed but you do have a valid point. Case in point, DETROIT LIONS........In the last several years the Lions have had a very good track record in acquiring free agents. For the most part every player they have targeted they have been able to sign. Why???? I'm not really sure. It certainly is not the wonderful weather, not the beautiful city......
Partially they spoil the FA they bring in and won't let them leave until they have their signature on the contract. Brian Walker, Dre Bly, and now with the signing of Damian Woody it continues. I think it comes down to fan support......
Michigan is sports crazy.....fans wait for the FA at the airport, and at the facilitys. Even with the lousy record the Lions have had two years in a row with sell outs and tickets are scarce to come by. The Pistons and Red Wings are the same way, any FA they want they are able to sign. Detroit is one of the least desirable places in the world to live yet they continue to sign quality players.....and your guess is as good as mine why the Cards haven't got that down yet. Arizona is beautiful, Green is a great coach, and the team looks to be on the right track.....so who is messing this thing up.

Millen the idiot let Mooch take over the team. The team started signing good FAs.
They paid Bly more money then anyone else was willing they paid Woody more money then anyone else.

Their owner wants to win.Their owner has a source of income other then the football team.
He got money to burn!

 

[Arvos]

Vikesfan.....

I think your a little hard on Millen.......when he came aboard he had very little to work with. The Lions regime under Schmidt(GM) and Booby Ross did not leave the Lions much to work with. I admit Millen took some lumps and says alot of stupid things but he does go out and drafts well and usually brings in good free agents.

I think it comes down to ownership, in regards to a winning franchise. William Clay Ford has always been more into the Ford motor company than he has been with the Lions(his toy). He is almost 80 and I think he desperately wants to see the Lions win the big one before he kicks off.

 

[Arvos]

Bly overpaid.....?

That was lasy years thinking ......"The Lions overpayed for Bly".

How can you still think he is overpayed now......he was a starter on the Pro Bowl for heavens sake. He will be payed much less than what the Vikings will pay for Winfield, and who would you rather have on your team????

 

[Duckjake]

For a success model, all you have to do is look at the Patriots. I am not a fan of theirs, but I respect the way that they develop their OWN drafted talent. By doing so, they don't have to blow their wad on on big free agents. Instead they spread it around for the "belly" of the team. That being said, if they do need the occasional "big fish" via free agency, they are going to have a great chance because of the talent and reputation already in place.

The Cardinals problem #1. They have too many free agents!
Undrafted Free Agents that is.

They only have 5 players on the team drafted before 2001!!!!!

The only thing the Cardinals have been good at developing is fan apathy.

 

[AZCB34]

At least vikesfan has stepped into line and made the weak ass excuse of the Bidwills having no money to pay these bonuses his mantra.

Dude, even though the Bidwills have no outside "business" like a Snyder does, they have alot of money they are sitting atop of...believe it. And IMO a smart buisinessman will dip into his own reserves if it means he will make more in the end product...and they would if they put a winning team on the field. Winning means more butts in the seast which, even with a completely poopy lease at Sun Devil Stadium, means more money into his pockets.

You have to spend money to make money. The next excuse is, they have to foot part of the stadium bill yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'll throw in my 2 cents, I think Rod is suffering from what I call the Trident syndrome, named after a company I once worked for several years back. I took the job because it was a promotion, better title, better pay, chance to supervise people etc. I knew 2 people who worked there and told me this is a small company that is trying to change the way it operates, we want you to be part of that change. This is precisely what Graves is trying to do here with the Cards.

When I got in I found quite quickly that it was MUCH harder to change it than expected, the owner/CEO controlled everything, and I mean everything, I couldn't even select which janitorial company I used I had to use the people he wanted, who incidentally cleaned his house too. I couldn't use a bigger HVAC company I had to use a 1 man company(the converted an ambulance into his repair truck). I had engineers sitting on plastic stackable chairs because I wasn't allowed to buy ergonomic chairs. I had managers demanding I run weekly reports of cardkey usage because they wanted to checkup on their employees and see how many hours they worked.

Turnover was astronomical, 40%, morale was rock bottom, I had wakeup calls nightly because people working late would set off the burglar alarms, they figured if they had to be there, they couldn't be bothered to be careful. Every week someone would quit on the spot, no notice, just walk out. We had employee theft problems, and the company was horribly underperforming. I lasted 6 months, the longest 6 months of my life, and I left for less money to a much smaller company just to get the hell out of there.

This is what I see happening with Graves right now, he believed he could come in and change things, he tried to implement those changes, and then found out that management didn't really fully support the changes, they told him they did, but they had to be dragged kicking and screaming to make any changes. ANd in things liks signing FA's that doesn't work.

At this rate I think we have to wait and see, end of FA, after the draft, where is this team? But I wouldn't be stunned if Graves is out of a job after this season unless things change radically or Green does a masterful coaching job. I think Graves is finding out in the end if you're not allowed to compete on an even field, it's not easy to compete.