It's still hard for me not to question all of Green's changes with player personal...

[JPlay]

I don't think they are just Mac and Tobin guys..many of our picks were recommend by "experts" like the Sporting News, Fox Sports, ESPN, and numerous other guru's..they weren't tailor made for Mac's system. They were considered one of the best players at their position at the time. I think some of them were just coached badly... which could be changed with good coaching... As I mentioned, in some cases I think Green would have even made the same decison.

Yeah the experts suggested we not draft Suggs (great player) and draft Calvin Pace and Bryant Johnson (one huge bust, one mediocre reciever). A lot of it had to do w/ the bad picks we made and a lot had to do w/ bad coaching and bad environment.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Yeah the experts suggested we not draft Suggs (great player) and draft Calvin Pace and Bryant Johnson (one huge bust, one mediocre reciever). A lot of it had to do w/ the bad picks we made and a lot had to do w/ bad coaching and bad environment.

Ok I admit that wasn't the best move and it was considered our worst draft..I just feel that if Green was the one drafting some of these guys he would have given them a longer leash..even if it were a round later... I don't think it's a coincidence that the guys Green drafts will get more of a chance than the guys Mac and Tobin drafted...

 

[cardsunsfan]

..and yes I think Green will do a better job than Mac and Tobin and maybe he'll get us to 10-6, just wondering if we'll lose a game or two that we could have won because of lack of depth that we had before... if we get some injuries I think we might want some of these guys we're cutting... but of course it probably won't be blamed on Green but bad luck if that were to happen...

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't think they are just Mac and Tobin guys..many of our picks were recommend by "experts" like the Sporting News, Fox Sports, ESPN, and numerous other guru's..they weren't tailor made for Mac's system. They were considered one of the best players at their position at the time. I think some of them were just coached badly... which could be changed with good coaching... As I mentioned, in some cases I think Green would have even made the same decison.

like who? You keep saying this but I don't remember the experts alduing such picks as Michael Stone, Ray Thompson, KVB - in fact - most experts were deeming them (righly so) REACHES - and those experts who basically laughed at us in the last Mac draft.

You say there isn't much difference between good and bad teams in the NFL - and I think you're somewhat right - here's the problem though - in Mac's last two years, we weren't just bad - WE WERE AN ABOMINATION - regular 25 point beatings - giving up 30 points with ease... for TWO STRAIGHT YEARS.

Last year people bitched and moaned about getting rid of the "depth" or the "belly" that Graves had built and what happened? We had the most competitive year of football(especially in light of what came before it) since the playoff years.

Keep cutting away all the losers that Mac rbought in Denny. When we start winning, maybe people will see why those guys are gone - until then, remember, most of the people complaining thought the team two years ago was going to be 8-8, at worst, with our "innovative" new offense from Sully!

 

[cardsunsfan]

like who? You keep saying this but I don't remember the experts alduing such picks as Michael Stone, Ray Thompson, KVB - in fact - most experts were deeming them (righly so) REACHES - and those experts who basically laughed at us in the last Mac draft.

You say there isn't much difference between good and bad teams in the NFL - and I think you're somewhat right - here's the problem though - in Mac's last two years, we weren't just bad - WE WERE AN ABOMINATION - regular 25 point beatings - giving up 30 points with ease... for TWO STRAIGHT YEARS.

Last year people bitched and moaned about getting rid of the "depth" or the "belly" that Graves had built and what happened? We had the most competitive year of football(especially in light of what came before it) since the playoff years.

Keep cutting away all the losers that Mac rbought in Denny. When we start winning, maybe people will see why those guys are gone - until then, remember, most of the people complaining thought the team two years ago was going to be 8-8, at worst, with our "innovative" new offense from Sully!

I was thinking along the lines Of Wendall Bryant, Shelton and free agents like Kendall (former first round pick) and Starks (former first round pick) Most of those experts graded us pretty well overall in the last four yrs or so...the yr before last yr the first round was a mistake..but everybody knows that...

 

[joeshmo]

In brief - No, I don't think he got rid of these guys because they were part of the old regime. He got rid of them because he felt they weren't as good for the team overall as other options he had available.[/color]

Wow. This is one excellent post.

Put it up on the front page will ya.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

This thread has got to be one of the funniest things I've seen in awhile. To actually seriously suggest Green cut too much Mackage is insanity. If it were up to me even more Mackage such as McClown and Hodgins would be hitting the bricks this offseason.

 

[Mulli]

This thread has got to be one of the funniest things I've seen in awhile. To actually seriously suggest Green cut too much Mackage is insanity. If it were up to me even more Mackage such as McClown and Hodgins would be hitting the bricks this offseason.

I am surprised we haven't seen "Green keeps Jeff Blake, Cards go to Playoffs" post today

 

[Shane]

Dont worry once we start winning next year youll learn not to question

Your one to talk.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Your one to talk.

Why? What did I rag on green about before it was given a chance. One example please.

Funny shane my post on how there are posters hanging on to the old awful team. Your numero uno lol You seem to love all things that are glaringly bad for the organization.

Its why we are always on opposite sides of issues. Now cheesie, I and ouchie and one or two others are finally getting what we complained about for years. Your just jealous I guess lol

 

[joeshmo]

We got rid of last years starting center, Wilson,Starks and others. These guys have or will start for other teams who are better than us.

please list all of these players that we have cut that have gone on to other teams that are now starting. Kendall Yes, Starks Yes but we got paid for him. anyone else, who is in this others category. Are you talking about the great Dennis Johnson, or Justin Lucas, or Kasper, Rhinehart, Parsons, Levar Fisher, Banks, Gilmore, McCaddley, Young, Bush, Tanner.

Your List should read: Pete Kendall, Starks(although we recieved compensation for), and Marcus Bell who turned into good backup for the lions. Not this "others" stuff, it implies there are a lot more of them of which there isnt.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Are you talking about the great Dennis Johnson, or Justin Lucas, or Kasper, Rhinehart, Parsons, Levar Fisher, Banks, Gilmore, McCaddley, Young, Bush, Tanner.

.

Joe no need to run faces in it.

many of these saviors had hardcore fans on this board. We should never have let them go.

 

[joeshmo]

Joe no need to run faces in it.

many of these saviors had hardcore fans on this board. We should never have let them go.

Yeah but they were all really good special teamers.

 

[ajcardfan]

Ok I admit that wasn't the best move and it was considered our worst draft..I just feel that if Green was the one drafting some of these guys he would have given them a longer leash..even if it were a round later... I don't think it's a coincidence that the guys Green drafts will get more of a chance than the guys Mac and Tobin drafted...

To make your point you are totally ignoring exceptions to what you are saying:

Wilson
Davis
Wells
R. Davis
Boldin
Johnson
Darling
Hayes

All of these guys, and a few others, were signed or drafted by McGinnis. All played key roles last year and probably will this year too. The difference I see is that these guys actually played well last year the other guys didn't.

 

[clif]

please list all of these players that we have cut that have gone on to other teams that are now starting. Kendall Yes, Starks Yes but we got paid for him. anyone else, who is in this others category. Are you talking about the great Dennis Johnson, or Justin Lucas, or Kasper, Rhinehart, Parsons, Levar Fisher, Banks, Gilmore, McCaddley, Young, Bush, Tanner.

Your List should read: Pete Kendall, Starks(although we recieved compensation for), and Marcus Bell who turned into good backup for the lions. Not this "others" stuff, it implies there are a lot more of them of which there isnt.

You know I was going to start a list, but honestly I couldn't remember all the names. I was about to look it up, but I think me not remembering their names pretty much proved the point on it's own

 

[joeshmo]

You know I was going to start a list, but honestly I couldn't remember all the names. I was about to look it up, but I think me not remembering their names pretty much proved the point on it's own

I had to go here to refresh my memory.

http://azcardinals.com/news/transactions.html

They have every single transaction for something like the past 2 years.

 

[BigDavis75]

Yeah but they were all really good special teamers.

I love hearing that excuse for crappy players.

 

[joeshmo]

I love hearing that excuse for crappy players.

Dont forget they had a lot of heart, tries really hard, and always talked to me and signed autographs for me at the Flagstaff training camp excuses.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

If Green was running the draft we'd have Byron Leftwich right now instead of Pace and BJ. Let's face it, Mac was in way over his head.His staff stunk, their player evaluation stunk,their gameplanning stunk. Other than Mac being a nice guy to the media,name one good thing about that coaching staff. Green came in and got rid of the guys who couldn't cut it or weren't on his page.Why would a coach cut a player who can play just because he was with the other regime. Kendall is the only questionable cut but Green saw him as a potential problem so he's gone.Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't think they are just Mac and Tobin guys..many of our picks were recommend by "experts" like the Sporting News, Fox Sports, ESPN, and numerous other guru's..they weren't tailor made for Mac's system. They were considered one of the best players at their position at the time. I think some of them were just coached badly... which could be changed with good coaching... As I mentioned, in some cases I think Green would have even made the same decison.

by and large those are publications, they are not nfl scouting departments. and though we all read 'em and love 'em, they are usually flawed compared to what actually happens. their grades are mere opinions. i hesitate to call 'em experts. in fact, i'm not sure they know what they're talking any more than we do.

plain and simple, the cards sucked. it was a combo of bad talent evaluation, bad coaching, and bad players. denny assumes that he can correct the first two by having his hands in the pot, he's doing all he can do to correct the last item by getting rid of what he considers crap. he had a year to see what they could do, both in games and practice. he was able to discern their attitude. he wants to win. all the denny naysayers have to remember that denny's got a tremendous ego, he wouldn't do something to hurt his chances of winning just to prove a point. he places too much of his self-worth in his win-loss record. that said, he knows crap and gets rid of it. behind him 100%.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I clearly do not know what is in Greens head but he without question cut or got rid of some players we could use and have started for other teams. If he was trying to make a point I am not into making points with NFL football players. Sometimes you have to put up with good players who are lacking in personality or may disagree with you. We got rid of last years starting center, Wilson,Starks and others. These guys have or will start for other teams who are better than us. Many of you swear by Dennis Green. He still has some things to prove to me before I jump on his bandwagon. We won 6 games last year which is not exactly all world. Blame it on the past coaches but they did not fire the staring center, the OL coach after 6 games to be replaced by a guy with little experience, sit LJ Shelton when he should have been starting, pull McCown after he won two games in a row, pass on a very good QB in the draft for a receiver. Yes he made some good draft selections but one season does not make you an All Pro coach as he did not perform like one. I will make a judgement after this year on just how much he has changed this team for the better. If we cannot get better than .500 then he is just another in the long line of coaches.

if he goes 8-8 he's right on schedule as far as i'm concerned. this was a major overhaul. the cards were the worst team in the nfl. maybe not the particular year that preceded denny, but overall for the haul, yeah, sucky.

 

[JeffGollin]

Other than Mac being a nice guy to the media,name one good thing about that coaching staff.
When Mac took over for Tobin, I was one of his biggest cheerleaders. I loved what he was saying, and his moves made sense at the time.

But as time wore on, I had the feeling that his regime was kind of like a fraternity house filled with a bunch of alumni who used to be with the Bears and were still waxing about the good old days.

The words and emotions were inspiring. But it became more and more evident that, other than the Playoff year, nothing seemed to be improving. The reasons were far from obvious. True, some of the personnel moves were questionable, but there always seemed to be a rational reason for each of them. But nothing seemed to catch on. The team would be slow out of the gates each Fall (so OK, blame it on not enough home games early). Key players would get injured. A few key guys would find their way onto the police blotter.

More important, the team couldn't win.

We all started to examine what was going on more microscopically. Why did the team start off each year so slowly? Why did our younger players look no better at the end of the season than when they started? Why did we go to soft zones on 3rd and long? Why was our offensive play calling so predictable? Why wasn't Rod Graves pulling the trigger on more FA deals during the offseason? What in blazes were we thinking when we passed on Suggs and found ourselves on the wrong end of a swap of draft picks in order to reach for Pace and Johnson?

Hindsight is 20-20. Exit Mac and enter Dennis. A year and a quarter later, you look at how Green runs his shop and you can see more clearly where Mac was unable to get the job done.

In my opinion, the biggest contrast between the 2 regimes centers on drafting strategy. Mac would zero in on guys he wanted and then would draft them a round early to make sure he got them. Dennis prefers to trust his board and take the best player who falls to him. His way maximizes the talent-level on the roster. Mac's way downgrades our talent in each draft by one round and places incredible pressure on having to be absolutely sure he's right about each player he targets.

But this didn't become clear (at least to me) until Dennis was here for awhile and we could draw the contrast.

It's really sad that Mac's tremendous heart and other human qualities wasn't accompanied by a better sense of the way you identify, attract, bring in and develop good personnel.

As fans (if we're attentive) we have the opportunity to see before our very eyes what didn't work in the past and what changes had to be made to transform the Cardinals into a winner.

(Having said that - Dennis, don't embarrass me now and let me down. We still haven't won anything yet).

 

[Skkorpion]

if he goes 8-8 he's right on schedule as far as i'm concerned. this was a major overhaul. the cards were the worst team in the nfl. maybe not the particular year that preceded denny, but overall for the haul, yeah, sucky.

Well put. You speak for me. An 8-8 record while being competitive in 14 games (Every team seems to have two stinkers a year) would please me.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well put. You speak for me. An 8-8 record while being competitive in 14 games (Every team seems to have two stinkers a year) would please me.

given my newly bestowed authority, you will all send me one MILLION dollars you won't be able to view ASFN again . . . i love when i get to speak for skorp!

 

[clif]

I think the entire organizations business philosophy had to change. I strongly believe the security of a new stadium has given the cards more reasons to get it right than any one person or one thing.