It's time for Fans to take a stand and get the Real Refs back

[MadCardDisease]

The NFL thinks they can do whatever they want because they know that fans will still go to the games no matter what. That statement is pretty much true.

However what the NFL isn't expecting is the fans to boycott Consessions at the game. You see the fans still get to see the teams they love but the owners see a hit to their pocket book because the fans are not spending money on overpriced food and drinks.

It's time to take a stand my friends and end this madness! Spread the word!

http://wewantrealrefs.com

 

[Chopper0080]

The numbers difference between the two is in the millions, and I don't see why the NFL would cave. Look, facts are the NFL wants a higher quality of officiating than it has gotten over the years while paying less. They also don't want to pay pension benefits to part time employees. This is a problem with Unions. They negotiate to protect the worst employees while also trying to benefit the whole group. I get that NFL officials want to be on a full time payroll, but they need to either make do with their part time income (not chump change by any stretch) or decide to dedicate their time to their other profession. Being an NFL referee is a choice, and I have no problem with the NFL forcing them to make that choice.

 

[Hollywood]

The numbers difference between the two is in the millions, and I don't see why the NFL would cave. Look, facts are the NFL wants a higher quality of officiating than it has gotten over the years while paying less. They also don't want to pay pension benefits to part time employees. This is a problem with Unions. They negotiate to protect the worst employees while also trying to benefit the whole group. I get that NFL officials want to be on a full time payroll, but they need to either make do with their part time income (not chump change by any stretch) or decide to dedicate their time to their other profession. Being an NFL referee is a choice, and I have no problem with the NFL forcing them to make that choice.

While I agree with you, I also have to admit that it is getting harder and harder to side with the NFL every week. I thought that the officiating would get better as time went on but it seems to be getting worse.

 

[Totally_Red]

Just because the replacement refs are bad doesn't mean I want the NFL to cave to the regular officials. Those clowns have screwed over the Cardinals soooo many times over the years.

Sorry, but I'm neutral in this labor standoff. I do want the regular referees back. But I don't want the NFL to give (or keep giving) them a pension for working 16 or 17 days a year.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Why?

We are 3-0. I see no difference except for the fact it takes them longer to get things right.

And for once it doesn't feel like we are getting the short end of the stick.

It is not my butt out there on the field, and it ain't my job to get the other refs back. Let the millionaires and billionaires take care of it.

 

[BillsCarnage]

Gather round the boob tube, here's what's going to happen.

Until the replacements actually cost a team a game w/ an extra TO or replay, the NFL can and will just sit. They're not losing any money, the refs are.

And once the regular refs come back and miss calls ppl will bitch and whine wanting the replacements back..

 

[joeshmo]

This is a "it takes two to tango" situation.

While I don't agree with the NFL in terms of not giving the officials the raise they deserve I also don't agree with many things the union is asking for. Things I think are ridiculous.

1. They want a pension plan for part time employee's. Most full time employee's don't get a pension in the NFL what makes these part timers think they should get one? 50% of the NFL's full time employees don't get a pension.

2. They are refusing to let the NFL add more referee's to the group. I can only assume that the Union doesn't want this because it would mean it would be easier for the NFL to replace bad referee's who have had bad grades for a lengthy amount of time. It means more accountability and the refs don't like that.

Neither side wants to play ball, so I don't see the need to try and hurt one side over the other.

 

[gmabel830]

It is a pretty complicated situation where both sides have very valid points for the positions that they are taking. See the very rational counter-points to your points. Not saying I agree with all of this, but it is a very valid line of thinking.

This is a "it takes two to tango" situation.

While I don't agree with the NFL in terms of not giving the officials the raise they deserve I also don't agree with many things the union is asking for. Things I think are ridiculous.

1. They want a pension plan for part time employee's. Most full time employee's don't get a pension in the NFL what makes these part timers think they should get one? 50% of the NFL's full time employees don't get a pension. They don't want a pension plan, they already have one, and they just want to keep what they have for current officials. At a time when the league is most successful and everyone is making more than they ever have before, they want to start taking things away from the officials compensation now? I work for a company that still offers a pension -- I wouldn't be too happy if they decided tomorrow to just kill the pension program. If they wanted to stop the program for all new employees that would be totally different and a lot more justifiable.

2. They are refusing to let the NFL add more referee's to the group. I can only assume that the Union doesn't want this because it would mean it would be easier for the NFL to replace bad referee's who have had bad grades for a lengthy amount of time. It means more accountability and the refs don't like that. The last I heard, the NFL was demanding more officials without increasing their offer to officials -- essentially saying the existing officials would just have to decrease their overall share of money they each got to accomodate the new officials. Now, I'd be all for the bigger pool of officials and more accountability, but shouldn't the NFL have to pay for that extra cost vs. the officials each making less to essentially pay for the guys who might take their jobs?

Neither side wants to play ball, so I don't see the need to try and hurt one side over the other.

 

[joeshmo]

It is a pretty complicated situation where both sides have very valid points for the positions that they are taking. See the very rational counter-points to your points. Not saying I agree with all of this, but it is a very valid line of thinking.

To your first point, they are not trying to take it away, they are trying to make it more inline with the refs situation. They want to move from a defined-benefit pension plan to a 401k. A benefit that is way more in line with a person who is working part time and is only doing it as a second job to their real jobs. It doesn't matter how much the NFL makes, it is a matter of what is deserved, and part time employees who's priority isn't even being a ref do not deserve a pension.

To your last point that is simply not true. Refs get paid if they are working games. All adding to the total list of Refs would do is add a so called "Bench". The Bench guys don't get paid unless they work a game. So there would be ZERO taking away of pay from current refs by adding more refs to the system. The only way a ref would make less is if they unperformed and get replaced by a bench ref. Meaning the total amount of pay will stay exactly the same even though there are more refs.

As it stands currently the refs who are doing this as a part time second job have zero accountability. Sure they have a grading system but that is only on place to figure out who will get bonuses by working playoffs. Coaches can get fired, players can get benched, so why shouldn't the Refs be under the same accountability, of which they currently have none. And they don't want any part of it now, and are actually scared to death of it, and would fight for not letting the bench happen more so then any other point. Think of it this way and it is something I heard on the radio recently,

"The league wants to be able to pull struggling officials during the season and hopes to change the system from one of “entitlement” to one of “accountability.” Unsurprisingly, the referees are resisting this. If you were an NFL referee, wouldn’t you do everything you could to hang on to a part-time job that paid you $149,000 a year, along with a pension plan, and came with little threat of being replaced mid-season"

If the refs would just accept the idea of more accountability I am more then willing to bet the NFL would start budging on other issues they are being thick headed with.

 

[Fitz Rulz]

This is what I stressed in another topic. Why are they afraid of competition?
You are good, you work. You suck, stay home, we have a better one.
Instead they want to hold NFL hostage for the length of the agreement.

 

[Duckjake]

Why?

We are 3-0. I see no difference except for the fact it takes them longer to get things right.

And for once it doesn't feel like we are getting the short end of the stick.

It is not my butt out there on the field, and it ain't my job to get the other refs back. Let the millionaires and billionaires take care of it.

I'm with you Rugby. The replacement refs don't know that they are supposed to call back every great play the Cardinals make and overlook other teams infractions when they make a big play and always rule in the other teams favor on challenges, or that New England and Pittsburgh are supposed to get all the calls all the time. With the regular refs on the field we lose to New England because that holding call would have never been made. Even if Gronkowski had tackled our guy it would have been ignored.

The NFL is actually better with the Division II guys than with the regular refs.

 

[gmabel830]

To your last point that is simply not true. Refs get paid if they are working games. All adding to the total list of Refs would do is add a so called "Bench". The Bench guys don't get paid unless they work a game. So there would be ZERO taking away of pay from current refs by adding more refs to the system. The only way a ref would make less is if they unperformed and get replaced by a bench ref. Meaning the total amount of pay will stay exactly the same even though there are more refs.

I may have gotten the particulars a little off, but I can understand why the current officials don't like this even going beyond it just being an accountability thing. I don't know who is signing up to be a "bench ref" and not expect to be paid something; and, practically, these people are going to need to get some real-game experience even if all of the current officials are theoretically doing a great job, which would be taking it directly out of the current officials paychecks. I'm all for the idea of more accountability for doing a good job, but the NFL basically wants the referees to take all of the financial accountability for this - and I understand why the current officials have an issue with this.

If you company decided to hire some extra folks, train them in your job function, and then basically tell you that if they decide you had a bad week they will plug in one of the extras and you can take an unpaid week off, I'm sure you'd have an issue with that plan -- even if you are confident in your ability to do quality work.

As I said, I'd be in favor of anything that would increase the accountability factor, but I understand why the current officials feel that they are basically being asked to shoulder all of the financial responsibility for doing this and why they think this isn't fair.

 

[ajcardfan]

I truly believe the regular refs would've hosed us in the New England game. At the very least, that holding (and it WAS most definitely a hold) on Gronk would not have been flagged and we would've been forced to try and score a miracle TD to win.

That said, they miss a ton of blatant holding, false start and PIs. The holding situation with the oline is getting ridiculous. Clearly, olineman are being coached that they can get away with it with these guys.

 

[Fitz Rulz]

No it's different. The pay is per assignment. A part time job. You may be assigned, may not.

 

[Russ Smith]

I truly believe the regular refs would've hosed us in the New England game. At the very least, that holding (and it WAS most definitely a hold) on Gronk would not have been flagged and we would've been forced to try and score a miracle TD to win.

That said, they miss a ton of blatant holding, false start and PIs. The holding situation with the oline is getting ridiculous. Clearly, olineman are being coached that they can get away with it with these guys.

Yep, it's as they were saying last night teams are coaching their players to take advantage of the refs.

I guess over time the new norm will settle in and we'll stop screaming holding on every pass play because we'll get used to it not being called.

But when you can tackle a guy or damn near his pull his pants down and not get a call, NFL OL's are going to hold.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

Why?

We are 3-0. I see no difference except for the fact it takes them longer to get things right.

And for once it doesn't feel like we are getting the short end of the stick.

It is not my butt out there on the field, and it ain't my job to get the other refs back. Let the millionaires and billionaires take care of it.

My position exactly.

 

[Duckjake]

I may have gotten the particulars a little off, but I can understand why the current officials don't like this even going beyond it just being an accountability thing. I don't know who is signing up to be a "bench ref" and not expect to be paid something; and, practically, these people are going to need to get some real-game experience even if all of the current officials are theoretically doing a great job, which would be taking it directly out of the current officials paychecks. I'm all for the idea of more accountability for doing a good job, but the NFL basically wants the referees to take all of the financial accountability for this - and I understand why the current officials have an issue with this.

If your company decided to hire some extra folks, train them in your job function, and then basically tell you that if they decide you had a bad week they will plug in one of the extras and you can take an unpaid week off, I'm sure you'd have an issue with that plan -- even if you are confident in your ability to do quality work.

As I said, I'd be in favor of anything that would increase the accountability factor, but I understand why the current officials feel that they are basically being asked to shoulder all of the financial responsibility for doing this and why they think this isn't fair.

But that is exactly what NFL teams do every season (except for the unpaid part. Instead you could get fired the following day). Doesn't keep 1000's of guys from wanting to try to make it in the NFL.

 

[gmabel830]

But that is exactly what NFL teams do every season (except for the unpaid part. Instead you could get fired the following day). Doesn't keep 1000's of guys from wanting to try to make it in the NFL.

Good point.. and again, I'm not saying I agree with any of this, just that I understand the position of the officials and that I don't think they are being irrational with their positions in the negotiation. Quite frankly, both sides need to find a way to move the needle toward the middle at this point if anything is ever going to get done.

 

[Pariah]

I don't want the regular refs back. The new ones will normalize. The old ones want too much--pure greed. F them.

 

[kerouac9]

This is a "it takes two to tango" situation.

While I don't agree with the NFL in terms of not giving the officials the raise they deserve I also don't agree with many things the union is asking for. Things I think are ridiculous.

1. They want a pension plan for part time employee's. Most full time employee's don't get a pension in the NFL what makes these part timers think they should get one? 50% of the NFL's full time employees don't get a pension.

2. They are refusing to let the NFL add more referee's to the group. I can only assume that the Union doesn't want this because it would mean it would be easier for the NFL to replace bad referee's who have had bad grades for a lengthy amount of time. It means more accountability and the refs don't like that.

Neither side wants to play ball, so I don't see the need to try and hurt one side over the other.

To be fair, this is the whole point of collective bargaining. Transitioning the American labor market from defined benefit (pension) to defined contribution (401k) is the biggest scam that corporate America has ever worked on the labor market. I hate the Baby Boomers that allowed this to happen at the expense of everyone who followed them.

The accountability thing is a problem that makes the officials look bad, but taking away their pensions is an easily resolveable system by grandfathering in the officials under the current plan, and then letting new highers have to take 401(k)s. The NFL screwed the coaches union in the same deal, and the officials are saying "We're smarter than that."

 

[Duckjake]

To be fair, this is the whole point of collective bargaining. Transitioning the American labor market from defined benefit (pension) to defined contribution (401k) is the biggest scam that corporate America has ever worked on the labor market. I hate the Baby Boomers that allowed this to happen at the expense of everyone who followed them.

The accountability thing is a problem that makes the officials look bad, but taking away their pensions is an easily resolveable system by grandfathering in the officials under the current plan, and then letting new highers have to take 401(k)s. The NFL screwed the coaches union in the same deal, and the officials are saying "We're smarter than that."

This is for the P&R board but there is no way we could continue to afford to provide defined benefit pensions for everyone with 330 million people living to 85. We're already trillions of dollars in debt to retirement plans as it is.

 

[oaken1]

The NFL thinks they can do whatever they want because they know that fans will still go to the games no matter what. That statement is pretty much true.

However what the NFL isn't expecting is the fans to boycott Consessions at the game. You see the fans still get to see the teams they love but the owners see a hit to their pocket book because the fans are not spending money on overpriced food and drinks.

It's time to take a stand my friends and end this madness! Spread the word!

http://wewantrealrefs.com

No way....the officiating in the NFL has been spiraling down over the past decade....not only in bad calls...but the officials are obviously biased for/against certain teams in many games.

What we are seeing on TV, is the commentating crew highlighting every little mistake because the old refs are part of the NFL good ol'boys fraternity....when the basic fact is that these new guys really are not doing too badly. Do they miss some calls?? sure they do...but the old officials missed calls every game as well....at least these guys are making a solid honest effort and will continue to improve..... NFL officials get paid 149k a year for a part time job in which they only work about thirty days a year.....they do not deserve more money....or a 7k a month retirement plan...they have the sweetest job in the damned country as it is...screw all of them greedy bastards.

planning to send an email to the commish..... keep the new guys, hire some more...guys like me...I know the rules...and for 149k a year, not only will I work the season, but during the off season I will hit the gym every day to make sure I can keep up on the field, ...and study new rules, old games, whatever they would like to keep me on top of my game....it would be a dream job for not only me but for many others as well I am sure.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I don't want the regular refs back. The new ones will normalize. The old ones want too much--pure greed. F them.

How do you know that? Thru 3 games, I haven't seen much to suggest they are moving down a path toward "normalization"... All the while, the game is being hurt.
Is there any more demanding, precarious and stressful job in professional sport than a NFL head coach?? These guys redefine intense and dedication. And to think that their livelihoods are being put at risk because officials don't know what they're doing... don't know the rules... don't know how to execute penalties.

Hell, in the Cards game on Sunday, there was about a 10 minute stoppage in play simply because the refs couldn't figure out how to properly execute a penalty...they tried and failed at least 3 times!
These guys suck. They weren't even college, Div. I refs. It's not their fault of course... it's a flat out tragedy that Goodell would let this happen in the first place.
Coaches jobs hang in the balance and players jobs and safety are at stake as well.
And I see no signs to suggest these refs can eventually step up and become NFL quality... at least not by attempting to do so on the job. They are completely lost out there and it's painful to watch...

 

[Duckjake]

No way....the officiating in the NFL has been spiraling down over the past decade....not only in bad calls...but the officials are obviously biased for/against certain teams in many games.

What we are seeing on TV, is the commentating crew highlighting every little mistake because the old refs are part of the NFL good ol'boys fraternity....when the basic fact is that these new guys really are not doing too badly. Do they miss some calls?? sure they do...but the old officials missed calls every game as well....at least these guys are making a solid honest effort and will continue to improve..... NFL officials get paid 149k a year for a part time job in which they only work about thirty days a year.....they do not deserve more money....or a 7k a month retirement plan...they have the sweetest job in the damned country as it is...screw all of them greedy bastards.

planning to send an email to the commish..... keep the new guys, hire some more...guys like me...I know the rules...and for 149k a year, not only will I work the season, but during the off season I will hit the gym every day to make sure I can keep up on the field, ...and study new rules, old games, whatever they would like to keep me on top of my game....it would be a dream job for not only me but for many others as well I am sure.

150K at 20 games (including pre season) at 3 hours per game = $2,500 an hour! OK add in another 2 hours of prep time and it is $1500 an hour. That's almost as much as my Plumber makes. Not bad for a weekend job.

 

[gmabel830]

150K at 20 games (including pre season) at 3 hours per game = $2,500 an hour! OK add in another 2 hours of prep time and it is $1500 an hour. That's almost as much as my Plumber makes. Not bad for a weekend job.

You here different figures from different sources, but I would guess your numbers are grossly understated. Also, I assume the NFL has invented some Star Trek style teleporters that gets them to and from the games in nano-seconds if you aren't counting the travel time when calculating their pay per hour? And, I assume the refs just come jogging right into the stadium right at kick-off and bolt right when the clocks hit 0:00 as well?

Not saying the refs are not overpaid (they are), but I'd bet if you added up the real time they spend planning for, travelling to/from, and time spent at the stadium, the time commitment is a lot closer to a full-time job than a 3-hour a week job.

I'm pulling this number completely out of my ass, but if your employer made 20% profit in the past year, and then during your compensation discussion they told you they were going to reward your service by cutting your pay, cutting your benefits, and hiring people that would be trained to do your job and potentially replace you, you wouldn't be super thrilled about that result -- no matter how overpaid you were. I'm not saying that I think the refs deserve what they are asking for, but I do understand why they are pretty pissed off in how they are being treated by the NFL.