It's Time: The Cardinals Offensive line - Official yearly over analysis

[RugbyMuffin]

Enough.

Time to talk about the subject that most of us don't have a clue about, more than "it's a problem".

There is something going on with the Cardinals offensive line. Yes, the same line that brought this team to the Super Bowl and playoffs two years in a row.

Something is going on that our current staff does not like one bit.

Free Agency is not more than a week old, we lost Boldin, Dansby, and Rolle. And besides trading for Rhodes to fill the safety spot, the only other immediate news has been about guards.

Artis Hicks, and now Rex Hadnot. <---- Both pretty big guys

I am very surprised at this point that Kendrick Vincent has not been talked about yet.

So, what is going on at guard. Here we are talking about how our tackles stink yet there is no immediate talk about tackles being brought in.

Some other guards, of size, to think about:

Hank Fraley
Kendell Simmons
Langston Walker


Yet, it seems our guard situation is in dire straits. Enough that guys that were paid around 4 million dollars last year are being brought in to help deal with the problem that I personally will state, was un-aware of.

So, let's get into this.

What would you do with the Cardinals offensive line his offseason ?

 

[Catfish]

Its kind of hard to fix a problem without knowing exactly what the problem is. Right now, only seeing that the FO has apparent interest in guards, (multiple), leaves me in sort of a quandry.

Lets talk first about what we have been told is probably going to happen on the O-line. The staff has been pretty adamant that Brandon Keith is ready to step in at tackle. They have also shown a propensity to let these draftees season for two years before starting them. This is Keith's third year coming up and therefore should be his time.

Everybody says that the staff will move Levi to LT, and start Keith at RT. I am not so sure. For one thing, RT is going to be Leinart's blind side, and Levi is a proven vet at that spot, (though there are a number of ASFN'rs who don't like him). Secondly, the league seems to have the quickest edge rushers coming around the LT side of the line, (hence the need for quick footed LT's). The staff has been lauding Keith's quick feet ever since he arrived, and it would seem to me to be a good fit on the left side, leaving Leinart's blind side to the veteran.

The staff also seems to be quite happy with Sendlein at Center, though a back up would be desirable there. Maybe by bringing in someone like Hadnot, they could shore up 3 back-up slots with one person. They do still have Ben Claxton on the squad as an RFA, (though he is pretty much untried). Maybe they are looking to keep him and make a decision on him next year, while attempting to have a G/C FA as back-up for now.

I have not seen a lot written or being said about either Wells or Lutui from this past year, so I can only guess at what may be a problem. Some have said that while Lutui is OK, he has not really progressed. (I do know that he took pride at SC in protecting Leinart's blind side, and consideres Leinart his responsibility and his guy). Maybe that kicks in this year, and there is a new spark in Lutui's step, but I am only guessing. Wells, on the other hand, seems to have drawn the ire of either Whiz, or Russ, or perhaps both? There just hasn't been much talked about concerning this, though there have been hints that he was not adequately picking up people that the LT's slid toward the center when pass blocking. I know that he has played center, and has been smart enough to make line calls, so I doubt that he is not smart enough to understand Grim's scheme for pass blocking. That might lead me to believe that the problem is that he has lost a step as he has aged, and maybe is no longer either quick enough or strong enough to get the job done.

Herman Johnson might be called upon to step up and play at guard, but this throws Whiz' preferred time table of two years of seasoning out of whack. This is House's second season, and while he should get some real time at work, I doubt that Russ/Whiz are ready to turn the guard slot over to him just yet.

As I said before, it is hard to fix a problem without knowing what the problem is. This would be my best guess at the problem and the fix.

 

[PoolBoy]

i didnt think our line was that terrible last year....at all.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Draft Ciron Black from LSU and move him to Guard where I think he will be very, very good.

 

[joeshmo]

First it has been said and written about that the Cards thought their most consistent OL was actually Lutui. In fact they thought from Sendlein all the way over to the right Tackle, Levi, was the most consistent group on the OL. They were very unimpressed or rather disappointed in the season that Wells had.

Combine that with the fact that a lefty will be playing under center and we will supposedly want a more running forward offensive attack one would think that maybe the OL has to change slightly as well. Maybe a bigger mauler at Center in Hadnot, or a bigger mauler at LG in Hadnot.

Then there is always the we just plain old need depth issue. Occams razor, the simplest answer is probably the right one. And the simplest answer is - We only have 6 players under contract right now, one of which isn't even under contract, Lyle is still under just the RFA tender that isn't signed yet, so technically we only have 5 players under contract. I know people side tracked with other team issues but we without a doubt drastically need to get some OL guys under contract.

 

[SuperSpck]

I think Joe's got this one.

It's about depth and competition.

Keith's best fit would be at RT, but do you flip Levi, who's probably finally getting comfortable with learning new muscle memory, over to his college position just to fit him in?

That's a very good question.

Also, for a guard, how tall is too tall?
If there is such a thing Herman's pushing it.

 

[Assface]

As far as the Herman Johnson to guard idea, the general blocking scheme favored by Grimm calls for bigger maulers at tackle and guards that are able to pull around the end on power running plays. Also, taller lineman usually play T. You don't really want a 6'8" guy standing in front of your QB while he's trying to pass.

 

[Chopper0080]

The other area that versatile vets like Hadnot help at is freeing up spots to develop and stash young players. When you have vets that can backup at C, and play both guard spots you can effectively free up a spot by not having to carry both a backup vet C and a vet G (or two). Hadnot saves you from potentially carrying three vet interior linemen. Also keep in mind that with Herm and Brandon Keith (both who backup at tackle) a vet interior lineman who plays multiple positions frees up a spot for a rookie guard if they want to develop one behind Wells.

 

[Snakester]

I think Hadnot will be a Cardinal. If he doesn't outright win a spot either at guard or center he will be the top backup. Reggie Wells is in the last year of his contract and is more of a finesse and wall off blocker instead of a power drive blocker. I think the Cards are getting ready to replace Wells either this year or next. Wells would be a very nice backup because he can play all three inside spots but he is too expensive to be a backup. With the Cards not offering a contract to Claxton that means we are in need of a backup center. I hope that Wiz will give Hadnot the chance to win a spot at center as I think he would be better than Sendlein. At the very least we will have a solid backup at center whether it is Hadnot or Sendlein.

I think the Cards are now going to be more of a running team and it would make sense to have bigger stronger players that can get that extra push. To me our best option at left guard is Herman Johnson. That is the position he played at LSU and he would be our version of Leonard Davis at guard. He has great size and strength to move the pile as well as using that same size and strength to stop the bullrush in its tracks. I know alot of people think he is going to be a tackle but I could not disagree more. I have studied Johnson on tape and I haven't seen anything that even begins to tell me that he has the feet to be a tackle. It's sort of like putting someone with two left feet on the dance floor and and saying yea with a little practice they can be graceful. If Russ Grimm can turn Herman Johnson into a great tackle then he can walk on water as well.

At Left tackle all the talk is moving Levi Brown over to the left side. The guy is finally getting good at right tackle, I just don't like the idea of moving him and then have to watch him have a learning curve while at the same time Leinart gets the brunt of this learning curve and ends up on his back alot more than he should his first year starting. Hopefully the Cards leave Brown alone. He and Lutui have finally started to make the right side a strength, I would not change that now.

At rightguard I fully expect the Cards to sign Deuce to at least a four year contract. He is going into his prime and has become a solid starter for us. He has the size and strength for the running game and is decent as a passblocker and is only getting better. Deuce along with Breaston should be our top priorities to sign now.

I am hoping the Cards use their number one draft pick on a left tackle. Bruce Campbell would be a great project for Russ Grimm. The guy is an incredible athlete for an offensive lineman. If Grimm can work his majic on this guy we could have our own Jonathan Ogden for the next ten years. I know all the talk about Brandon Keith being the other starter at tackle, but after watching him play I just don't see where this guy is a going to be a good left tackle prospect. He has okay feet but doesn't seem to have the great balance and recovery that a top LT prospect should have. And the fact that if the Cards are so high on him why in the world didn't he play left tackle when Gandy went out. He wasn't even given the chance to start one game. That tells me that the Cards don't have much confidence in him either.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

What is with all these rediculously long Replies? Nobody is going to read those, get your point accross quickly.

IMO i wouldnt mind if the Cards drafted a solid OL in the 2nd-3rd round. There a couple solid guys away from having a beast of a run game which i know Whiz wants...

 

[kerouac9]

I think Hadnot will be a Cardinal. If he doesn't outright win a spot either at guard or center he will be the top backup. Reggie Wells is in the last year of his contract and is more of a finesse and wall off blocker instead of a power drive blocker. I think the Cards are getting ready to replace Wells either this year or next. Wells would be a very nice backup because he can play all three inside spots but he is too expensive to be a backup. With the Cards not offering a contract to Claxton that means we are in need of a backup center. I hope that Wiz will give Hadnot the chance to win a spot at center as I think he would be better than Sendlein. At the very least we will have a solid backup at center whether it is Hadnot or Sendlein.

I think the Cards are now going to be more of a running team and it would make sense to have bigger stronger players that can get that extra push. To me our best option at left guard is Herman Johnson. That is the position he played at LSU and he would be our version of Leonard Davis at guard. He has great size and strength to move the pile as well as using that same size and strength to stop the bullrush in its tracks. I know alot of people think he is going to be a tackle but I could not disagree more. I have studied Johnson on tape and I haven't seen anything that even begins to tell me that he has the feet to be a tackle. It's sort of like putting someone with two left feet on the dance floor and and saying yea with a little practice they can be graceful. If Russ Grimm can turn Herman Johnson into a great tackle then he can walk on water as well.

At Left tackle all the talk is moving Levi Brown over to the left side. The guy is finally getting good at right tackle, I just don't like the idea of moving him and then have to watch him have a learning curve while at the same time Leinart gets the brunt of this learning curve and ends up on his back alot more than he should his first year starting. Hopefully the Cards leave Brown alone. He and Lutui have finally started to make the right side a strength, I would not change that now.

At rightguard I fully expect the Cards to sign Deuce to at least a four year contract. He is going into his prime and has become a solid starter for us. He has the size and strength for the running game and is decent as a passblocker and is only getting better. Deuce along with Breaston should be our top priorities to sign now.

I am hoping the Cards use their number one draft pick on a left tackle. Bruce Campbell would be a great project for Russ Grimm. The guy is an incredible athlete for an offensive lineman. If Grimm can work his majic on this guy we could have our own Jonathan Ogden for the next ten years. I know all the talk about Brandon Keith being the other starter at tackle, but after watching him play I just don't see where this guy is a going to be a good left tackle prospect. He has okay feet but doesn't seem to have the great balance and recovery that a top LT prospect should have. And the fact that if the Cards are so high on him why in the world didn't he play left tackle when Gandy went out. He wasn't even given the chance to start one game. That tells me that the Cards don't have much confidence in him either.

1) Reggie Wells is making $3 million a year. He makes less than Rex Hadnot does right now.

2) You're forgetting that Grimm's system doesn't ask OGs to drive block as frequently as he asks them to pull around the edges. It's unclear what kind of mobility Herman Johnson has now to come from the middle to the outside on those blocks.

3) There's no way that Bruce Campbell lasts until our pick. Most mock drafts have 4-5 OTs going in the first round, and Campbell may be the second OT off the board.

 

[Mulli]

What is with all these rediculously long Replies? Nobody is going to read those, get your point accross quickly.

IMO i wouldnt mind if the Cards drafted a solid OL in the 2nd-3rd round. There a couple solid guys away from having a beast of a run game which i know Whiz wants...

 

[RugbyMuffin]

What is with all these rediculously long Replies? Nobody is going to read those, get your point accross quickly.

IMO i wouldnt mind if the Cards drafted a solid OL in the 2nd-3rd round. There a couple solid guys away from having a beast of a run game which i know Whiz wants...

I read them.

 

[Catfish]

What is with all these rediculously long Replies? Nobody is going to read those, get your point accross quickly.

IMO i wouldnt mind if the Cards drafted a solid OL in the 2nd-3rd round. There a couple solid guys away from having a beast of a run game which i know Whiz wants...

Hey----the thread asked for discussion concerning the ENTIRE offensive line. If you don't want to read the posts, then don't, but don't ask the rest of us to put one liners up there and call it discussion.

Some of us are not into getting big post numbers next to our names. We are into contributing to the discussion.

 

[joeshmo]

1) Reggie Wells is making $3 million a year. He makes less than Rex Hadnot does right now.

I havent had math class in a long time but since when is ZERO dollars more then 3 mill.?

Considering Hadnot is unemployed right now.

 

[JeffGollin]

Assorted Random O-Line Thoughts

1. The Russ Grimm factor makes it difficult to know the extent to which Cardinal linemen are doing what they're doing based on pure talent vs. how much is due to Grimm's coaching style, blocking philosophy and ability to get his guys to play well as a unit.

2. Because of this, it's hard to evaluate our linemen based on talent alone; let alone figure out what proposed changes are urgent, necessary or merely "nice."

3. Personally, I've felt that - despite playing well enough under Grimm to get us to the playoffs 2 straight years - our O-line has been shaky and has somehow been getting it done with duct tape. Weakest link appears to have been Gandy, but LT is a pretty challenging position.

4. Gandy shows up regularly on the NFL Network crawl as a UFA. (I assume that means it's 80% or higher that he won't be back). Health remains an issue anyway.

5. Purported "insider buzz" nothwithstanding, do we really know that the coaches feel Keith is ready to slide into RT or take over at LT? What's the deal with Herman Johnson - how much has he progressed? Is he close to being ready for prime time.

6. Should Sendlein go down, who'll be his backup? (Isn't Claxton off the roster)?

7. I don't know enough about Hadnott or Wade Smith to know where or how well they'd fit on our O-line.

8. I hope we'll be opportunistic in the Draft - i.e. if Pouncey was the best player on our board at #26, I'd "pounce." Or if the coaches really liked someone like Campbell or Veldheer better than anyone else at the right value-point when we picked, we should leap on one of those puppies. But at this point, I wouldn't reach to fill a need - I'd rather trust Russ G to develop the guys we've got.

 

[Cardiac]

IIRC Snakester use to post threads breaking down the play of each O-lineman after each game. While I don't agree with everything he posts I do pay extra attention to the posts on O-line play.

As some have stated Big Herm may be to big for OG. If this is the case then without Gandy or Bridges signed where we are thin is at OG. Yes they both played OT but they could also play OG. Keith and Big Herm are probably our depth at OT and Grimm is looking to improve and or add depth at the interior of the line.

It's easier and cheaper to find depth/starters at the interior Oline positions, especially during FA.

Catfish - Still don't agree with your ongoing statement that Grimm wants O-lineman to sit 3 years before getting playing time.
Levi started as a Rookie.
Lyle S played to games in his rookie year and has started in his 2nd year on.
Keith was a 7th rd pick, those usually are developmental type picks.
Big Herm was a 5th rd pick & Cards are changing his position.

Since the Cards had a long streak of the same OLine starting for 32 + straight games it would be tough for a mid/late rd draft pick to break that up.

Many Pre Combine Mocks had Campbell lasting until our pick. I'd say his combine workout has almost assured he is a Raider.

 

[Catfish]

The other area that versatile vets like Hadnot help at is freeing up spots to develop and stash young players. When you have vets that can backup at C, and play both guard spots you can effectively free up a spot by not having to carry both a backup vet C and a vet G (or two). Hadnot saves you from potentially carrying three vet interior linemen. Also keep in mind that with Herm and Brandon Keith (both who backup at tackle) a vet interior lineman who plays multiple positions frees up a spot for a rookie guard if they want to develop one behind Wells.

Great point Chopper-----it would be nice to have a spot available to draft a promising young OL and develop him long-term without having to clear waivers from the PS if we want to bring him up.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

IIRC Snakester use to post threads breaking down the play of each O-lineman after each game. While I don't agree with everything he posts I do pay extra attention to the posts on O-line play.

As some have stated Big Herm may be to big for OG. If this is the case then without Gandy or Bridges signed where we are thin is at OG. Yes they both played OT but they could also play OG. Keith and Big Herm are probably our depth at OT and Grimm is looking to improve and or add depth at the interior of the line.

It's easier and cheaper to find depth/starters at the interior Oline positions, especially during FA.

Catfish - Still don't agree with your ongoing statement that Grimm wants O-lineman to sit 3 years before getting playing time.
Levi started as a Rookie.
Lyle S played to games in his rookie year and has started in his 2nd year on.
Keith was a 7th rd pick, those usually are developmental type picks.
Big Herm was a 5th rd pick & Cards are changing his position.

Since the Cards had a long streak of the same OLine starting for 32 + straight games it would be tough for a mid/late rd draft pick to break that up.

Many Pre Combine Mocks had Campbell lasting until our pick. I'd say his combine workout has almost assured he is a Raider.

Both LEVI and LYLE got in early because of injury.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

With the 26th pick in the 2010 NFL Draft, the Arizona Cardinals select G Mike Iupati, Idaho.

 

[Vermont Maverick]

Both LEVI and LYLE got in early because of injury.

Nope. Levi got in because he was the only tackle on the roster. I'm surprised you would forget the whole "shoulda drafted Adrian Peterson but we were locked into drafting for need" scenerio.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

With the 26th pick in the 2010 NFL Draft, the Arizona Cardinals select G Mike Iupati, Idaho.

... and all the "talking heads" say WHAT??? with all of their needs on "D" they select a guard. Same ole Cards!

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Nope. Levi got in because he was the only tackle on the roster. I'm surprised you would forget the whole "shoulda drafted Adrian Peterson but we were locked into drafting for need" scenerio.

Nope. Oliver Ross was designated as the starting RT and got hurt. I'm surprised you don't remember that.

 

[Cardiac]

Both LEVI and LYLE got in early because of injury.

Nope. Levi got in because he was the only tackle on the roster. I'm surprised you would forget the whole "shoulda drafted Adrian Peterson but we were locked into drafting for need" scenerio.

Makes sense but the point is we have such a small sampling that it's tough to draw any conclusions about how long Grimm waits to start a new O-lineman. If they are drafted in rd1 they probably start that year. If drafted on day 3 they probably wait a year or two or three or get cut.

I just don't believe Grimm has a business statement that says O-lineman must season for ? years on the bench.

 

[kerouac9]

Both LEVI and LYLE got in early because of injury.

True enough, but the difference was that Levi and Lyle were allowed to start. When Gandy got hurt this year, the coaching staff didn't look at Keith and say "next man up." The coaching staff looked at Jeremy Bridges and said, "Well, you didn't come to training camp with us, but now you're our starting left tackle."