I've finally decided

[Cbus cardsfan]

Not that it matters because i think the Cards have made up their mind, but i've come to the conclusion that Green should be retained next year. For once, the Cards need to show some stability and let Green try and finish the job. It looks like he finally has his staff in order.I would suggest he get a new DB's coach but the OL has come together under Loney,the offense is showing good diversification under Kruzcek.Clancy has shown to be adequate. The LB's coach is highly regarded. If the Cards bring in a new guy and new coaches the team will again have to familiarize with new terminology and new expectations from a new staff. To me, it looks like the team has turned the corner during the 2nd half of the year. THey really have only played 1 bad half in the second half and that was the 1st half against Denver. The team, surprisingly, has not quit on Green like alot of us thought they did. In fact they will finish 5-2 if they can win against SD with the losses being at Minny and against Denver, two not too shabby teams.

Green definitley has his faults but so will any coach that is brought in. In the big scheme of things, DG is a very successful coach in the NFL. He's won about 120 games and it's not too many coaches that have a winning record as a NFL head coach. There are alot more with losing records. Personnell wise, Green knows the team better than any new HC will and he has been very successfull at upgrading the talent level of this team. The players seem to like playing for Green as you haven't heard one guy come out and bad mouth him even though it's likely he 's gone. My opinion is that the team/staff has finally jelled and breaking it up will mean the start of another re-building process and that shouldn't be the case when they are so close to finally showing signs of what we all expected from the year's outset. I know you're only as good as your record but this team was very, very close to being a division champ this year if they(Rackers) had made some kicks or didn't get some tremendously bad breaks in a few games. Jimmy Johnson is right, Green should be brought back to be able to finish what he started.

 

[ItsInTheCards]

Not that it matters because i think the Cards have made up their mind, but i've come to the conclusion that Green should be retained next year. For once, the Cards need to show some stability and let Green try and finish the job. It looks like he finally has his staff in order.I would suggest he get a new DB's coach but the OL has come together under Loney,the offense is showing good diversification under Kruzcek.Clancy has shown to be adequate. The LB's coach is highly regarded. If the Cards bring in a new guy and new coaches the team will again have to familiarize with new terminology and new expectations from a new staff. To me, it looks like the team has turned the corner during the 2nd half of the year. THey really have only played 1 bad half in the second half and that was the 1st half against Denver. The team, surprisingly, has not quit on Green like alot of us thought they did. In fact they will finish 5-2 if they can win against SD with the losses being at Minny and against Denver, two not too shabby teams.

Green definitley has his faults but so will any coach that is brought in. In the big scheme of things, DG is a very successful coach in the NFL. He's won about 120 games and it's not too many coaches that have a winning record as a NFL head coach. There are alot more with losing records. Personnell wise, Green knows the team better than any new HC will and he has been very successfull at upgrading the talent level of this team. The players seem to like playing for Green as you haven't heard one guy come out and bad mouth him even though it's likely he 's gone. My opinion is that the team/staff has finally jelled and breaking it up will mean the start of another re-building process and that shouldn't be the case when they are so close to finally showing signs of what we all expected from the year's outset. I know you're only as good as your record but this team was very, very close to being a division champ this year if they(Rackers) had made some kicks or didn't get some tremendously bad breaks in a few games. Jimmy Johnson is right, Green should be brought back to be able to finish what he started.

which begs the question, how do you know that any of the recent success has to do with Denny, and they weren't in fact winning in spite of him?

they beat crappy teams, and last week got blown out at home by Denver in a game that has proven they haven't turned the corner

he is 16-31 in 3 seasons, and he hasn't built a dynasty, but he still hasn't even come out with a respectable 8-8

sad when you see what a guy like Marvin Lewis has done with an equally crappy franchise, putting them in better position his first year there

 

[ajcardfan]

The best sign that Green should be retained is if the Bidwills fire him. If there is ever a movie made about the Bidwills it will be called "All the Wrong Moves".

 

[joeshmo]

Clancy has shown to be adequate.

29th in Yards
30th in Scoring

27th in scoring Last year
Top 10 in yards but only becuase teams didnt have to travel far to score.

A once imaginative coach his first year is now unimaginative and OC's around the league are no longer dumbfounded by some of his ideas or play calls. You dont blitz a rookie QB. Come on.

I know a lot of people on this board like him, but IMO he is highly overrated and very replaceable.

If the Cards bring in a new guy and new coaches the team will again have to familiarize with new terminology and new expectations from a new staff.

I say big deal. These guys are pro's, the players and the coaches. There is a reason that new coach teams can have more practices under the CBA rules. As for expectations, I say myabe just maybe a new coaching staff can get more out of this talanted team, or put into better situations to succeed, none of which Green and his staff have been able to do.

The players seem to like playing for Green as you haven't heard one guy come out and bad mouth him even though it's likely he 's gone.

No player in their right mind except for maybe TO will badmouth their coaching staff even lame duck coaching staffs. Just becuase they arent saying anything or all saying the right things does not mean thats how they really feel. And every player really could like Green, he runs the easiest training camp in the league.

In the end the guys severe lack of on field coaching, giving his buddies jobs (DB Coach), lack of pregame schemes, half time adjustments, and so on, are all going to hurt this team from ever going far.

He is already fired, they just havent anounced it yet.

 

[ajcardfan]

which begs the question, how do you know that any of the recent success has to do with Denny, and they weren't in fact winning in spite of him?

they beat crappy teams, and last week got blown out at home by Denver in a game that has proven they haven't turned the corner

he is 16-31 in 3 seasons, and he hasn't built a dynasty, but he still hasn't even come out with a respectable 8-8

sad when you see what a guy like Marvin Lewis has done with an equally crappy franchise, putting them in better position his first year there

I dunno, I thought that win by Denver yesterday was a pretty good one.


As for the wins against "crappy teams", show me a better sequence of six games in the last half of the season since '98.


I'd be much more comfortable firing Green if we had any record of success with coaching changes after three years to fall back on. I'd also be much more comfortable with it if the hire was decided by someone not named "Bidwill".

 

[joeshmo]

I'd be much more comfortable firing Green if we had any record of success with coaching changes after three years to fall back on.

I dare you to find any record of success, period. (except for one year)

 

[az1965]

I agree with joeshmo... I think a new (right) staff may bring more out of this talented group.

 

[Stout]

So you'd be willing to extend his contract, right Cbus? Because, if you'll recall, Denny wants an extension so as not to be a lame duck coach.

I for one not only think giving him an extension would be a stupid decision, but feel that keeping him at all would be a grave mistake. He still can't manage the clock, can't seem to properly game plan, and coaches flat. We can surely do better.

 

[blindseyed]

The ONLY stat that matters is... 16-31
DG is awesome...

 

[ajcardfan]

So you'd be willing to extend his contract, right Cbus? Because, if you'll recall, Denny wants an extension so as not to be a lame duck coach.

I for one not only think giving him an extension would be a stupid decision, but feel that keeping him at all would be a grave mistake. He still can't manage the clock, can't seem to properly game plan, and coaches flat. We can surely do better.

He wouldn't have to be extended. All he ever said was he would "like" to be extended "if" he returned. You could just pick up the option year of his deal and be in the same situation he was headed into this season. Or, you could say, "No extension yet, prove it this season." Although, I'd much rather see him get fired than return under that scenario. I think that's just about a sure setup for failure. No one has given me a good lame duck coach yet.

 

[jmr667]

. No one has given me a good lame duck coach yet.

Maybe that's because if they did good in the last year of an existing contract they got a new/extended contract so they did not end up being "lame duck" coaches. If they did bad they got let go at the end of the contract.

 

[ajcardfan]

Maybe that's because if they did good in the last year of an existing contract they got a new/extended contract so they did not end up being "lame duck" coaches. If they did bad they got let go at the end of the contract.

That is exactly the kind of example I'm looking for. Know of any?

BTW, anyone who is coaching with only one year left on their deal is a "lame duck" even if they did wind up with an extension later.

 

[HeavyB3]

The best sign that Green should be retained is if the Bidwills fire him. If there is ever a movie made about the Bidwills it will be called "All the Wrong Moves".

Damned if they do, damned if they don't

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

So you'd be willing to extend his contract, right Cbus? Because, if you'll recall, Denny wants an extension so as not to be a lame duck coach.

I for one not only think giving him an extension would be a stupid decision, but feel that keeping him at all would be a grave mistake. He still can't manage the clock, can't seem to properly game plan, and coaches flat. We can surely do better.

I wouldn't give him an extension by any means. In fact, he'd be on a very short lease in regards to next years start of the season. Which means we could end up in the exact same place next year as they are this year if he fails again. That's a chance you have to take. You guys make very good points on bringing in another coach it's just that i'd like to give him the chance to finish. Face it, there are good arguments for both sides and he probably is gone. I'm just not sure now is the right time to let him go. For Mac, it was the right time.In fact he got to stay on a year too long. It's,to me, a hard call and the scary thing is the Bidwill's are the ones making it. But, if i had to choose, i'm letting him stay on and try and to keep thing moving in the right direction. But,i'm barely on that side of things. Let's say 53-47% to keeping him. As for the lame duck status, every coach is pretty much a lame duck unless it's their first year or they are extremely successful. If Parcells comes back next year, he'll be a lame duck coach and i don't think it will hurt him.

 

[KingofCards]

I agree with Cbus.

 

[conraddobler]

My reasoning on this is simple.

I know canning DG is a risky thing to do in that with this team just when you think it couldn't get worse it does.

I think for example that next year if retained we should make the playoffs using his players to get there.

It's hard to chuck that in a sense because it seems like if we are just patient then we'll get there. The question though is where is there?

If you mean the playoffs, then yeah we'll get there, if you mean win it all, I'd say that's the longest of long shots as long as DG is the coach because he just isn't going to outcoach top tier coaches, like ever.

Will the next guy be a guy who can? Well that's the rub, history says not so it's a really tough question, it's like some operation where you could become fabulously wealthy or you could die, you'll be average if you don't do it, maybe a little better than that but you will never be rich unless you take that risk.

It's a tough decision really tough IMO.

The point as an owner if it were me though would be that I was in the business to win it all, if I don't feel a coach of mine can get there, then he's gone, IMO at least.

 

[40yearfan]

I agree with Cbus.

GASP!!!! Me too.

 

[BigRedRage]

idea for bidwill: hire a GM and let him decide on green. Green has alot of respect around the league and would probly save his job with this however the GM could put his thumb down on things and tighten the ship

 

[1DS]

Cbus,

You make some very solid points. The Cardinals have gone a long time without stability at any of the coaching positions, let alone the Head coach. And it does seem that the team has played much better as of late. The O-line play is very encouraging. The offense as a whole is showing much more creativity and better game management. But if Green were to stay, we would be committing our future to him and his staff. Do we really have this much confidence in Green? He is 16-31 as our head coach. Over his tenure, he has shown little ability to make game-time adjustments, manage the clock, install discipline in players, use his players properly or help players reach their full potential. With his physical gifts, does anyone think Leonard Davis shouldn't be a pro-bowl level talent by now? Does anyone think it makes sense to allow Antrel Rolle, one of the most physical corners to come out of college in the last decade, to play 10 yards off of his man? Wouldn't it make more sense to bring him up to the WR and allow Rolle to do what he does best, and get physical? Orlando Huff consistently overruns plays and bites on play action pass because he is playing out of control dues to lack of discipline. Why has this not been addressed? Why have we been so poor (over Green's tenure here) at getting plays in to the QB on time? There have been countless times that timeouts have been wasted. How many times have we seen Green's team come out after half-time looking flat, unprepared and completely out coached? It's been better recently, but is 6 weeks of the expected play enough to erase the 2 1/2 years of incompetence? I am not convinced that it is. I believe we need to start fresh and give this young team a real opportunity to win.

 

[JeffGollin]

I agree with Cbus.

Me too.

- When teams fail, fans would rather call for the coach's head than for the coach to fix what's wrong.

- DG's major sin was one committed by others who left coaching only to return - The "This is how I did it in Minny" Disease. It left our offensive line in shambles and was Dennis' biggest blunder.

- But there have been those who've left coaching who failed to learn from their mistakes (Mike Ditka in NO) and those who have (Marty Schottenheimer who was fired in Washington but who's now HC of a Super Bowl favorite). It shows you that it's possible to learn from your mistakes.

- It's taken us three years too long, but it appears as if our offensive line is finally beginning to look pretty decent (chalk that up to DG bringing in Loney and learning from his mistakes).

- I realize many of you will consider this a big "if", but "If DG and his assistants can (a) objectively review the good, the bad and the ugly of this past season - including some poor game planning and bad game-day coaching decisions along with the good and (b) learn from those mistakes - our best shot at the playoffs next year and the years that follow may be to stick with what we've got.

- There may be some value in having a HC who, with his players, experienced what it's like to hit rock bottom and then bounce back to legitimacy. DG and his troops have all been in it together. That should be worth something.

- The only drawback to extending DG one more year would be "money" (And, now that the stadium is built, the Bidwills should have enough to pay DG a year's "severance" should he not get the job done next season).

- I base my decision on "the little I know." The closed-door communications policy of the Cardinal franchise makes it difficult for fans to know what goes on inside Cardinal HQ, what's Dennis like in his one-on-one relationships with his players, his assistants and team management/ownership.

For all I know, DG could have been doing all the wrong leadership things and deserves to be fired. Or not. But, based on (a) the little I really know about DG's coaching style and (b) alternative options that are out there, I think the team is finally on the right track, and I'd be inclined to give DG one more year.

 

[Goldfield]

Green is also the reason we lost what 7, 8 straight?

He screwed up by leaving Warner as the starter when it was CLEAR he was a tunrover waiting to happen. Green FAILED to bench players like Step who was VERY bad for more than one season.

It took losing 8 games in a row to get Greens head out of his ass and make changes.

Not to mention he plays for field goals when he has the lead! That is stupid!

He does not deserve to return. He has helped improve the talent on this team, but he has alot more reponsabilities than that.

I could see Green staying on in the FO to help with the draft or F/A, but not as the HC.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Green is also the reason we lost what 7, 8 straight?

He screwed up by leaving Warner as the starter when it was CLEAR he was a tunrover waiting to happen. Green FAILED to bench players like Step who was VERY bad for more than one season.

It took losing 8 games in a row to get Greens head out of his ass and make changes.

Not to mention he plays for field goals when he has the lead! That is stupid!

He does not deserve to return. He has helped improve the talent on this team, but he has alot more reponsabilities than that.

I could see Green staying on in the FO to help with the draft or F/A, but not as the HC.

That is not stupid. Playing the field goal game is something that the best coaches in the world do. Anytime that you can make the game a 2 possession game, you take it.

He should be more aggressive, because we are a losing team, and we can afford to take them.

 

[Goldfield]

That is not stupid. Playing the field goal game is something that the best coaches in the world do. Anytime that you can make the game a 2 possession game, you take it.

He should be more aggressive, because we are a losing team, and we can afford to take them.

I disagree, win's in the NFL are hard to get. You have to go all out and try to score TD's on every chance. Of course you take a FG when its 4th down but untill then you dont go "prevent O" and let the other team ave a chance... Step on their throat and play to WIN...

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I disagree, win's in the NFL are hard to get. You have to go all out and try to score TD's on every chance. Of course you take a FG when its 4th down but untill then you dont go "prevent O" and let the other team ave a chance... Step on their throat and play to WIN...

I never said that you should kick a FG on 3rd down.

We will just have to disagree then. I would venture to say that 75% or more of the coaches the league would also take the FG to go up 2 possessions.

The better question, is why not? No matter if you score a TD or a FG, you are still up 2 possessions. You still put take the pressure off, and no matter what happens, your offense gets another chance with the ball.

I am certain you are in the minority on this one, especially if you were to poll NFL coaches.

As for going into "prevent" offense, I can agree with you here. Playaction on 2nd down could be deadly. I also liked how we came out throwing on 2nd down to preserve the lead against the 9ers.

 

[Stout]

I never said that you should kick a FG on 3rd down.

We will just have to disagree then. I would venture to say that 75% or more of the coaches the league would also take the FG to go up 2 possessions.

The better question, is why not? No matter if you score a TD or a FG, you are still up 2 possessions. You still put take the pressure off, and no matter what happens, your offense gets another chance with the ball.

I am certain you are in the minority on this one, especially if you were to poll NFL coaches.

As for going into "prevent" offense, I can agree with you here. Playaction on 2nd down could be deadly. I also liked how we came out throwing on 2nd down to preserve the lead against the 9ers.

You are completely and utterly missing the point. When you're winning early, quite early in the game, you do not simply sit on your rear and play conservatively. You don't come in with a hot game plan, score a few times early, and then play the run-run-pass-punt, or if you're lucky kick a field goal, game. It's plain idiotic.

Take the Chicago game. We came out guns a-blazin'. We went up big early. All of a sudden, we completely and utterly abandoned our gameplan and became more conservative than my grandmother at Sunday bible school. Instead of going for the jugular, we were timid and meek, and settled for a few field goals. How nice would it have been to have stuck with the game plan and entered the 4th quarter against Chicago winning 28-0 instead of 20-0? We went up by 14 and utterly threw in the towel offensively. THAT is the point he was trying to make.

Accepting a field goal to make it a 2-possession game is one thing, and a smart thing. Playing prevent offense is another thing, and a hideous thing at that.