I've finally decided

[dreamcastrocks]

You are completely and utterly missing the point. When you're winning early, quite early in the game, you do not simply sit on your rear and play conservatively. You don't come in with a hot game plan, score a few times early, and then play the run-run-pass-punt, or if you're lucky kick a field goal, game. It's plain idiotic.

Take the Chicago game. We came out guns a-blazin'. We went up big early. All of a sudden, we completely and utterly abandoned our gameplan and became more conservative than my grandmother at Sunday bible school. Instead of going for the jugular, we were timid and meek, and settled for a few field goals. How nice would it have been to have stuck with the game plan and entered the 4th quarter against Chicago winning 28-0 instead of 20-0? We went up by 14 and utterly threw in the towel offensively. THAT is the point he was trying to make.

Accepting a field goal to make it a 2-possession game is one thing, and a smart thing. Playing prevent offense is another thing, and a hideous thing at that.

No, I am not missing the point at all. I am only talking about kicking a field goal turning it into a 2 possession game. In fact, I agree with him about the "prevent defense"

 

[Stout]

No, I am not missing the point at all. I am only talking about kicking a field goal turning it into a 2 possession game. In fact, I agree with him about the "prevent defense"

You wrote the above response as if you had begun the topic; you didn't. The poster made the point I just made to you, and you made a different point. Thus, you missed the original point. I doubt Beerz would disagree with taking a field goal to go up by 2 scores. If you agree with him about the prevent offense being stupid, you wouldn't have highlighted what you did and responded in an irrelevant fashion. I'm not trying to dog you, but you're off base.

 

[conraddobler]

Those of you wanting to keep Green should take something out of this thread:

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=83554

Pro Football Weekly


Dec. 26, 2006



There’s no denying Arizona’s defense is in dire need of repair on the corners. Antrel Rolle, who has only two career interceptions since being drafted in the first round of the 2005 draft, has consistently allowed receivers huge cushions this season for fear of getting beaten deep and has made matters worse by being called for an inordinate number of penalties. While Rolle had a solid outing in Week 16, forcing back-to-back turnovers in the win over the 49ers, he’s largely been a disappointment to date. Eric Green, drafted two rounds behind Rolle with the idea of also quickly becoming a starter, has displayed precious little ball awareness and has regularly been beaten deep, which has led to him spending much of the season behind David Macklin, who will be a free agent we hear the team isn’t interested in bringing back. But there’s a strong feeling in the desert that current DB coach Richard Solomon, a longtime Dennis Green crony, has been totally ineffective doing his job and is as big a reason as any behind Rolle’s and Green’s disappointing seasons. With that in mind, team sources believe a better-qualified position coach — a strong possibility with a major housecleaning expected soon — might make a big difference. That said, major investments in cornerbacks via both the draft and free agency would surprise nobody.

Survey says??????

Off with his coaching head.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

You wrote the above response as if you had begun the topic; you didn't. The poster made the point I just made to you, and you made a different point. Thus, you missed the original point. I doubt Beerz would disagree with taking a field goal to go up by 2 scores. If you agree with him about the prevent offense being stupid, you wouldn't have highlighted what you did and responded in an irrelevant fashion. I'm not trying to dog you, but you're off base.

What are you talking about? I even bolded the point that I wanted to talk about. There is a reason why I bolded THAT sentence. It was the one line in his argument that I did not agree with.

I didn't think that I had to omit the rest of his quote, for me to focus on one sentence.

 

[D-Dogg]

The best sign that Green should be retained is if the Bidwills fire him.

That's some catch, that Catch-22.

 

[PJ1]

I still can't decide. Hate the thought of a new staff and the inevitable excuses that a new system takes time after we start out 0-3. On the other hand I believe we have too much talent to be where we are. What happens when the games mean something again? Do we go back to choking and losing?

Just hard to say. Good points both ways.

 

[MrY]

Weren't there some people who came on here from Vikes boards to warn us about Solomon when Green brought him in? Seems to me they said he would ruin our secondary. Thats a long time ago, but I seem to remember something about it.

 

[KingLouieLouie]

I was very excited when the Cardinals named Green as their headcoach..... He generated enthusiasm immediately with all the gatherings he hosted... also he knew how to deliver a rousing speech during each and every draft party to give the fans a renewed sense of hope.... But.. it seemed to be always all talk really w/out unfortunately anything to show for it.....

True, he did amass a successful career in Minnesota, however, any coach surrounded with that talent would have had an outstanding record.... But... anyother coach would have lead them to the at least 2 Superbowl titles.. let alone just a Superbowl appearance...and that's obviously what Green failed to do during his tenure..... Here, he's again surrounded by talent that should easily have a winning record by now..the 3rd year with his program intact, but they havent progressed much or if at all since McGinnis was terminated....

People sit here and applaud Denny for his scouting ability, but isnt it possible we overrated him in that regards? We draft a WR from Denny's hometown... LeRon McCoy..... Following a game in which McCoy dominated, Denny is quoted as referring to him as LeBron James... The reason.. Denny doesnt remember his own player's name..someone that most believe he coveted......

True, the '04 draft was very successful, but I am certain Kiem and the rest of the staff had pretty much targeted their players and had their "War Room" rankings all set prior to when Green was hired.....Only Fitzgerald (of course he's worked-out here) was essentially linked to Green.. the others the Cardinals were very fortunate to select (IE Dockett and Dansby) because they were the only teams to be willing to take on whatever character they might have had.....

'05 draft hasnt generated the success most have anticipated... He hasnt exactly coached-up the players that we would all desire him to do..... And of course Denny doesnt warrant any credit in drafting Leinart because he was a heaven-sent here.......

I'm just not inclined to give him much credit for even the meager positives he's brought here since his tenure began...... However, I can fault him also for the power-struggles he's had with most of his better coordinators who he either demoted or terminated.. it just seems he rather surround himself more with "yes men"......

They need a young upstart coach who has enthusiasm.... It seems that Denny is generally subdued on the sidelines... all his frustration mounts.. and he waits until after the game to unleash it.. mainly lashing-out at the media opposed to his players.......

I just say no to bringing in Green... and definitely again in favor of bringing someone like a Ron Rivera...who then will surround himself with gurus as assistant coaches at both defense and offense respectively....

 

[Shane]

I was very excited when the Cardinals named Green as their headcoach..... He generated enthusiasm immediately with all the gatherings he hosted... also he knew how to deliver a rousing speech during each and every draft party to give the fans a renewed sense of hope.... But.. it seemed to be always all talk really w/out unfortunately anything to show for it.....

True, he did amass a successful career in Minnesota, however, any coach surrounded with that talent would have had an outstanding record.... But... anyother coach would have lead them to the at least 2 Superbowl titles.. let alone just a Superbowl appearance...and that's obviously what Green failed to do during his tenure..... Here, he's again surrounded by talent that should easily have a winning record by now..the 3rd year with his program intact, but they havent progressed much or if at all since McGinnis was terminated....

People sit here and applaud Denny for his scouting ability, but isnt it possible we overrated him in that regards? We draft a WR from Denny's hometown... LeRon McCoy..... Following a game in which McCoy dominated, Denny is quoted as referring to him as LeBron James... The reason.. Denny doesnt remember his own player's name..someone that most believe he coveted......

True, the '04 draft was very successful, but I am certain Kiem and the rest of the staff had pretty much targeted their players and had their "War Room" rankings all set prior to when Green was hired.....Only Fitzgerald (of course he's worked-out here) was essentially linked to Green.. the others the Cardinals were very fortunate to select (IE Dockett and Dansby) because they were the only teams to be willing to take on whatever character they might have had.....

'05 draft hasnt generated the success most have anticipated... He hasnt exactly coached-up the players that we would all desire him to do..... And of course Denny doesnt warrant any credit in drafting Leinart because he was a heaven-sent here.......

I'm just not inclined to give him much credit for even the meager positives he's brought here since his tenure began...... However, I can fault him also for the power-struggles he's had with most of his better coordinators who he either demoted or terminated.. it just seems he rather surround himself more with "yes men"......

They need a young upstart coach who has enthusiasm.... It seems that Denny is generally subdued on the sidelines... all his frustration mounts.. and he waits until after the game to unleash it.. mainly lashing-out at the media opposed to his players.......

I just say no to bringing in Green... and definitely again in favor of bringing someone like a Ron Rivera...who then will surround himself with gurus as assistant coaches at both defense and offense respectively....

Perfectly stated!

Bottom line is GReens gotta go!

 

[Stout]

What are you talking about? I even bolded the point that I wanted to talk about. There is a reason why I bolded THAT sentence. It was the one line in his argument that I did not agree with.

I didn't think that I had to omit the rest of his quote, for me to focus on one sentence.

*sigh* Yeah, you bolded it, and then ignored what he was talking about. Beerz didn't say a damn thing about hating kicking a field goal to go up two scores. He was quite clearly frustrated with the fact that, once this team has a lead, their play calling becomes pedestrian to try and protect the lead, and Green will gladly settle for field goals without even TRYING to get the TD. THAT was his point. You bolded it and argued it entirely out of context. It's not difficult to understand.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

*sigh* Yeah, you bolded it, and then ignored what he was talking about. Beerz didn't say a damn thing about hating kicking a field goal to go up two scores. He was quite clearly frustrated with the fact that, once this team has a lead, their play calling becomes pedestrian to try and protect the lead, and Green will gladly settle for field goals without even TRYING to get the TD. THAT was his point. You bolded it and argued it entirely out of context. It's not difficult to understand.

*sigh* We could go around, but this will be the last time for me. I bolded that line, because that was the line that I did not agree with. Yes, I used going up 2 scores as an example, just like you used the Chicago game as an example. Yet, he still disagreed with the going up two scores argument.

I understand his frustrations. I didn't like the way that we closed the Chicago game out for example.

What you aren't understanding that it is possible to agree with a majority of a post, and yet still disagree with a portion of it. Maybe I could have stated that I agreed with every part except the bolded part, but I didn't feel the need, and I still don't.

I disagree with the bolded line, I agree with the rest. Is that difficult to understand?

 

[Stout]

*sigh* We could go around, but this will be the last time for me. I bolded that line, because that was the line that I did not agree with. Yes, I used going up 2 scores as an example, just like you used the Chicago game as an example. Yet, he still disagreed with the going up two scores argument.

I understand his frustrations. I didn't like the way that we closed the Chicago game out for example.

What you aren't understanding that it is possible to agree with a majority of a post, and yet still disagree with a portion of it. Maybe I could have stated that I agreed with every part except the bolded part, but I didn't feel the need, and I still don't.

I disagree with the bolded line, I agree with the rest. Is that difficult to understand?

LOL you fail to understand. You completely took the bolded line out of context. The bolded line didn't say a damn thing about settling for field goals to get a 2-score lead. It was directly talking to all of the rest of the stuff you went on to say you agree with. So, by your later posts, you have disavowed your first post.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

LOL you fail to understand. You completely took the bolded line out of context. The bolded line didn't say a damn thing about settling for field goals to get a 2-score lead. It was directly talking to all of the rest of the stuff you went on to say you agree with. So, by your later posts, you have disavowed your first post.

Wow. How is it being taken out of context, when he disagreed with me directly afterwards?

Read this again.

Not to mention he plays for field goals when he has the lead! That is stupid!

My rebuttal of THIS LINE ONLY.

That is not stupid. Playing the field goal game is something that the best coaches in the world do. Anytime that you can make the game a 2 possession game, you take it.

He should be more aggressive, because we are a losing team, and we can afford to take them.

His response

I disagree, win's in the NFL are hard to get. You have to go all out and try to score TD's on every chance. Of course you take a FG when its 4th down but untill then you dont go "prevent O" and let the other team ave a chance... Step on their throat and play to WIN...

If he disagreed with me, I obviously didn't take it out of context.... and yes, I only bolded part of his quote again to emphasize .

You are really arguing the wrong battle. I agree with most of his post.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I'm all for making Green axe Solomon. If he refuses, then it's his ass that is gone. Green has updated almost every position coach except Solomon. I'm all for bringing guys you are familiar with when starting out at a new job but now it's time for him to let Solomon go and bring in an aggressive, new DB coach.

 

[D-Dogg]

I'm all for making Green axe Solomon. If he refuses, then it's his ass that is gone. Green has updated almost every position coach except Solomon. I'm all for bringing guys you are familiar with when starting out at a new job but now it's time for him to let Solomon go and bring in an aggressive, new DB coach.

Isn't that how Denny got pushed out in Minnesota? He was forced to fire solomon and didn't, then it all just melted down?

 

[Pariah]

My rebuttal of THIS LINE ONLY.

I've just skimmed the dispute here, but I think the point is that "playing for FGs only" has a lot more to do with what happens leading up to the 4th down when they have to kick it--it's the play-calling going into it.

The gripe isn't that Green is kicking the FGs to go up two scores--that's a no-brainer after you've put yourself in the position that you have to kick it or go for it. It's that the playcalling was so conservative that the inevitable outcome was a FG instead of rolling the dice even just a little bit on early downs to move the chains before it becomes 3rd down, and maybe getting into TD territory.

Moving the chains consistently on the other side of the 50 is far scarier for a team down by a score than is a predictable offense that is threatening you with kicking a long FG.

 

[D-Dogg]

Yes, the playcalling when we had a lead earlier in the season was very suspect. We air it out, air it out, run it, air it out...then have a lead and turtle. No passes over 20 yards attempted...runs up the gut on three straight playes. The offense goes into complete stagnation, which leads to FGs. No problem taking the FGs but the playcalling being more consistent and less deranged would lead to TDs later as well.

We haven't scored in second halves like we have in first halves, and that is a combination of three factors:

1. The opposing defense adjusting to us.
2. Our offense not adjusting to the defense and not only that, but....
3. ....our offense getting incredibly conservative and turtling early.


Playing not to lose is dangerous, extremely. Playing to win is preferred, but even that doesn't mean you take ridiculous chances, and yes as the game wears on you adjust to eat more clock and take fewer shots downfield, but that should happen SLOWLY, gradually over the game. You should NOT be able to pinpoint the moment in the second quarter where the offensive philosophy shifted. You should look at the game and say, wow...we started grinding it out in the fourth, but not know when exactly.

 

[Russ Smith]

My thing is this, the NFC as a whole is mediocre, the NFC West is pathetic, to finish with 5-6 wins THIS YEAR with this talent is bad, even with a rookie QB. If we assume SD beats us, and by more than 8 points, we'll finish up this year 5-11 and will have been outscored by more points this year than last year when we were 5-11 and outscored by 76 points on the season. That's not progress in a year where the NFC was so bad.

Green Bay is 7-8, SF has 6 wins and we've proven head to head we're a better team than they are, they're just far more consistent.


I don't see any compelling reason to bring Green back unless we just simply can't find a better coach to replace him?

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm all for making Green axe Solomon. If he refuses, then it's his ass that is gone. Green has updated almost every position coach except Solomon. I'm all for bringing guys you are familiar with when starting out at a new job but now it's time for him to let Solomon go and bring in an aggressive, new DB coach.

Well that would be ideal but you have to realize that's like telling Green to quit. Look at what happened the last time someone told him to fire Solomon.

The Cards mistake was letting him hire Solomon and hargrave in the first place, if they'd put their foots down then, they would have never had to look back and wonder if they got best effort on assistants or just "cronies." Allowing Green to hire those 2 gave him a precedent.

 

[Pariah]

I don't see any compelling reason to bring Green back unless we just simply can't find a better coach to replace him?

That's the thing--you'll never know. Do you think the Patriots fans were thrilled about bringing in Billicheck, who did very little in the way of wins in Cleveland?

On the otherhand, Green's resume and pie-chart looked terrific.

If you were looking at these two hires on paper 10 years ago, you might suspect Arizona got the better coach.

You've got to show Green the door and take a chance with someone else. We don't know if the next guy can do it, but we know Green can't with any consistency.

 

[Stout]

Okay, dream. You insisted on pursuing a point contrary to what you described, and he disagreed. That truly shocks me. Whatever, bro. It's not a big deal anyway; I just go nuts when people don't comprehend what they read. I sometimes do it, and when it's pointed out, I'm actually able to smack my head and say 'd'oh!'

 

[Duckjake]

My thing is this, the NFC as a whole is mediocre, the NFC West is pathetic, to finish with 5-6 wins THIS YEAR with this talent is bad, even with a rookie QB. If we assume SD beats us, and by more than 8 points, we'll finish up this year 5-11 and will have been outscored by more points this year than last year when we were 5-11 and outscored by 76 points on the season. That's not progress in a year where the NFC was so bad.

Considering the large number of players that were on IR last season makes it even worse.

 

[blindseyed]

Considering the large number of players that were on IR last season makes it even worse.

Duck, did ya have to make that observation? Now, I'm even more disgusted.....

I'm willing to let him, get a new coach and deal with some 'bad games' next year as opposed to delaying the inevitable of DG beong gone after NEXT year and having to do it anyway.
DG will never get this team to the SB, he never did it in Minny either. Time to move on to the next sap...err...coach...

 

[D-Dogg]

You've got to show Green the door and take a chance with someone else. We don't know if the next guy can do it, but we know Green can't with any consistency.

I agree, it has become a sunk cost issue...

 

[JeffGollin]

Survey says??????

Off with his coaching head.

OK. But just remember - the only vote that counts is ownership's.