Jackson, Melton dumped

[Covert Rain]

Most important lesson learned--tanking is absolutely not worth it. It destroys your culture, alienates your players, and is no guarantee of drafting good players--especially with the lottery system in place.

Nobody would be saying that if the Suns ended up with the #1 pick again. From a practical standpoint though under the new system it "could" be worth it but the odds are longer now.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Nobody would be saying that if the Suns ended up with the #1 pick again. From a practical standpoint though under the new system it "could" be worth it but the odds are longer now.

Everyone would be saying the Lotto would be worth it if they win it. But the odds clearly indicate it is not worth it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

So. How did the conversation go in the last week or two?

Jones: Monty, we want to try to rehab JJ's value. How many minutes do you think you can give him?
Williams: Isn't that what you told Igor last December? How did that work out for him?
Jones: So are you saying you won't play him?
Williams: The dude plain loses games for this team. Look at the tape.
Jones: So no minutes?
Williams: Do you want me to win games or play this dude. Can't have both. And if you insist, you can't have me.

 

[Yuma]

Playoffs would be absolutely sick! probably more than lottery success to most fans by now. I think we are all becoming numb to the NBA lottery by now. The lack of success has killed us.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Most important lesson learned--tanking is absolutely not worth it. It destroys your culture, alienates your players, and is no guarantee of drafting good players--especially with the lottery system in place.

with this lottery system yes. with the last lottery system, we had opportunities galore to take advantage of the tank and just couldn't scout for ish.

what destroyed our culture more was having atrocious GMs who in turn hired even more atrocious coaches.

at least we don't have an atrocious coach right now. I'll give Jones credit for that. jury's out on the GM as far as building a winner with the right roster.

 

[Yuma]

So. How did the conversation go in the last week or two?

Jones: Monty, we want to try to rehab JJ's value. How many minutes do you think you can give him?
Williams: Isn't that what you told Igor last December? How did that work out for him?
Jones: So are you saying you won't play him?
Williams: The dude plain loses games for this team. Look at the tape.
Jones: So no minutes?
Williams: Do you want me to win games or play this dude. Can't have both. And if you insist, you can't have me.

I am thinking it went more big picture. These are the type of guys we need to bring in. This is the culture we want.

A few guys on ESPN and NBATV, I think one of them was Rex Chapman, have mentioned our lineup looks more like a San Antonio roster, FWIW.

 

[sdscard4]

I am thinking it went more big picture. These are the type of guys we need to bring in. This is the culture we want.

A few guys on ESPN and NBATV, I think one of them was Rex Chapman, have mentioned our lineup looks more like a San Antonio roster, FWIW.

I was thinking same thing. Annnnd I'll take it for a few 2nd round picks....see ya

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Serious watch the Suns closely and Aaron Gordon. It’s more then just intrest.

I’ve seen you mention an inside source. We get a lot of people round here claiming to have inside sources. 99% of the time they’re full of crap and eventually those people are gone. Not saying you are, just understand if a LOT of us take what you say with a great deal of skepticism. No offense meant. Just throwing it out there.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Serious watch the Suns closely and Aaron Gordon. It’s more then just intrest.

That said, what in the world could we offer Orlando that would interest them?

 

[Finito]

I would love Gordon but we have no assets left.

 

[SunsTzu]

I would love Gordon but we have no assets left.

Lightly protected 1st and Tyler Johnson is really the only thing that would make sense if Orlando would got for it.

 

[Mainstreet]

Oubre and Gordon at forward would be sweet... Suns fixed.

 

[GatorAZ]

I’ve seen you mention an inside source. We get a lot of people round here claiming to have inside sources. 99% of the time they’re full of crap and eventually those people are gone. Not saying you are, just understand if a LOT of us take what you say with a great deal of skepticism. No offense meant. Just throwing it out there.

The way he defends every move Jones makes me think he may actually work for the Suns. So I actually think he may be credible as an insider lol.

 

[Raindog]

Heh, just realized Memphis next season is going to be running a lineup of Ja, JJ, and JJJ.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Heh, just realized Memphis next season is going to be running a lineup of Ja, JJ, and JJJ.

No...unless they want JJ to help them suck.

 

[Western Font]

Isn't the big selling point on Monty his relationship with players?

There is no getting around it - Josh Jackson has been a wasted talent so far. But he's only played for a couple of seasons through different coaches/teammates/systems. Yes, he makes some really stupid mistakes, but his athleticism and aggression are both things we DESPERATELY need.

Has he shown to be so irredeemable that they need to attach valuable 2nd rounders in lieu of keeping him around and seeing what he can do with a real coach and roster around him?

It's not like we're winning anything this year, and at least he has a hope of turning into something special - something you sure as hell can't say about any of our other young guys outside of Ayton.

To answer question #1, yes, and I think the possibility of Monty getting through to Jackson was one of the reasons many were excited about the hiring. But that still doesn't tell me that Monty wanted to keep him. He's not obligated to want to rehabilitate every single problem player. But again, I don't know one way or the other.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't think Sarver had ANY plans to can McD until the Houston trade. If he had PLANNED to do it and just waiting, yes, it was a big mistake. Should he have planned it sooner. Sure looks like it. I was certainly wrong about McD.

So the virtually completely meaningless Houston trade - which actually played out slightly in our favor with Melton (who we had to use to rid ourselves of JJ, Jesus) - was what suddently pushed Sarver over the edge on mcd??? Don’t get it. Just don’t get it.

 

[Phrazbit]

So the virtually completely meaningless Houston trade - which actually played out slightly in our favor with Melton (who we had to use to rid ourselves of JJ, Jesus) - was what suddently pushed Sarver over the edge on mcd??? Don’t get it. Just don’t get it.

We know McD got fired on the phone, we know Sarver wanted a more complete roster than what showed in the preseason...

I think they got into an argument, Sarver probably pissed about the Suns not having a point guard, McD probably pissed because (supposedly) Sarver interfered with him trading for one. I don't think Sarver was planning to fire him, I think he fired him in the moment. There is just no way anyone plans to fire their GM right at the start of the season.

I really can't picture Sarver not being meddlesome anymore.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think they got into an argument, Sarver probably pissed about the Suns not having a point guard, McD probably pissed because (supposedly) Sarver interfered with him trading for one. I don't think Sarver was planning to fire him, I think he fired him in the moment. There is just no way anyone plans to fire their GM right at the start of the season.

I really can't picture Sarver not being meddlesome anymore.

I agree. We also know that Sarver had been on the phone with James Jones just before he talked to Ryan so it's quite possible that Jones even fueled the firing decision. I know that's pure conjecture but it seems plausible given that Sarver and Jones both brought up the pre-firing phone conversation. My guess, Sarver asked Jones if he agreed with McD's asset collection program and James told him that future assets and young players don't win ball games.

 

[Raze]

A number of things stand out to me after this trade.

1. James Jones continues to show little regard for draft picks and value. I guess you could call him a transcender, or you could call him incompetent. I'm not sure, but here's what I do know, at my count he has been on the wrong end of 3 trades: TJ, #6, and now JJ. He completely botched the value of the #11 pick. He also throws away 2nd round picks at an alarming rate. (I wasn't in each of the rooms, but I'd bet Indi, Minnesota, and Memphis were all laughing at us when we agreed to the deals.) No matter the results of the trades we SUCKED out loud on capitalizing on our value. There's almost NO EXPERT that thinks we didn't. Amazingly, we are being laughed at MORE than when with McD.

2. For those continuing with the "We're a better team" battlecry... Of course we are. It wasn't hard to do. We had no where to go but up. But here's what you have to ask yourself, does this help us 5 years from now? If we sacrifice the chance of special in the future for the certainty of mediocrity in the now, is it worth it? And that's what we are now, mediocre. And if you're hoping for some future trade or draft pick to help, you'll be putting your faith in a GM who was laughed at by Indi and drafted Cam Johnson at #11.

3. I really like Melton. I was a strong proponent for us acquiring him. However, I was also strong for Carter. He's EXACTLY what you want in a back up PG and he can play right now. He's one of the toughest PG prospects I've scouted. Once again, we traded "potential" for "production" when it comes to prospects. However, this time I agree with the move. (Isolated from the rest of the trade).

4. JJ was undoubtedly damaged goods. There wasn't a great answer to this dilemma. But to give him away early is just poor management of assets. If there was all this disdain for him mid season than he should have been gone then. We continue to trade at the lowest possible point. Amazingly bad.

One thing is for sure, these new moves undoubtedly are the foundation new era of the Suns. We are the "play it safe" team.

James Jones philosophy is plainly clear: potential is a GM killer and he refuses to become its prey.

 

[Johninromania]

Dude, come on. Every other post you make some outrageous claim about having inside information on something.

No I don’t, re-read what I wrote. It’s just a name that I have heard. I said it could be a nothing burger. I didn’t say it was going to happen. Do I have inside info nope. All I have is someone who works in the front office who can tell you generalities about what’s going on. The Suns being high on Aaron Gordon is the closest thing that I have for insider information. My opinions on jones and the trades are exactly that my opinion.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

They also gave up what turned out to be a lottery pick this year to move up to select him and the first they got back turns into 2 seconds if OKC doesn't have a top 10 record next year.

Doesn’t matter what they gave up to get him. That was a sink cost. What does matter is they recognized they had a devaluing asset and moved it before it became worthless, or gasp, a negative asset to which they had to add positive assets to get rid of like jones did.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Most important lesson learned--tanking is absolutely not worth it. It destroys your culture, alienates your players, and is no guarantee of drafting good players--especially with the lottery system in place.

If Ayton turns out to be elite then you’re wrong. Now tanking under the current lottery system is a different story.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So. How did the conversation go in the last week or two?

Jones: Monty, we want to try to rehab JJ's value. How many minutes do you think you can give him?
Williams: Isn't that what you told Igor last December? How did that work out for him?
Jones: So are you saying you won't play him?
Williams: The dude plain loses games for this team. Look at the tape.
Jones: So no minutes?
Williams: Do you want me to win games or play this dude. Can't have both. And if you insist, you can't have me.

Jones: you’re under contract for five years.

 

[Superbone]

Philadelphia isn't going to complain about their tanking.