JJ is a Business Decision...Nothing More

[wilecoyotesupergenius]

OK...by now most have seen the ESPN report:

(http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2120105&num=0)

...and I've read numerous posts with opinions ranging from "match the offer anyway" to "sign-and-trade him for Childress and Harrington" to "don't let the door hit him in the ass".

The fact is that basketball is a business. The players know it. The owners know it. As long as two opposing sides have different agendas, there will be conflict. The proletariat clashed with the bourgeois state... unions still clash with ownership....and players will always clash with management...as long as both sides are acting out of rational self interest (which is an inherent trait of human nature).

The solution? Leave the emotion out of it and treat it as a business decision. Sign and trade with Atlanta? For me, any discussion involving a sign-and-trade scenario to Atlanta would need to start with Marvin Williams and Josh Smith.......and end with an unprotected 1st rounder.......which simply isn't going to happen. Nothing else on their unachieving roster would be considered an equitable exchange of talent..

So....match the offer. Who cares if JJ likes it or not? Suns fans should get some degree of comfort by one of the paragraphs in the report:

"Johnson, though, insists that his play and commitment to the Suns wouldn't be affected if a signed Hawks offer sheet results in a return to the desert.
'I would come back and work as hard as I ever have,' Johnson said. 'If they match, all this stuff is behind me from that minute on. I hope everybody [in Phoenix] puts everything behind them, too'."

You can trust that BC won't let his emotions cloud his decision...he's simply doing what he can to improve the team (acting with rational self interest). You can be sure that JJ is doing the same. He may indeed like the Atlanta scenario best...but once the offer is matched, he'll play his best and fit in with the team (because it is in his best rational self interest to do so).

Besides.........come December 15th (when newly signed free agents can be traded)...........if the Suns ever get the urge to upgrade the lineup....or make a change for another "big"....you can be assured that JJ will be high on the list of potential departees.

Doing a sign and trade for less than equitable talent in return...or worse...letting JJ go for nothing....is simply an emotional response. Frankly, it just isn't good business.

 

[Joe Mama]

I can understand why JJ would want to leave if he feels like a fourth option. I've been holding off on the "told you so" posts for a while, but I can't take it any longer. I was ridiculed over and over for suggesting that JJ might want to leave, and there was a legitimate possibility it could happen.

That said, is still think the Phoenix Suns will match the offer. JJ might be the third or fourth option now, but within the next two years he and Amare will be the two-man "core" this team builds around. I think that's true regardless of whether Nash and/or Shawn Marion are traded.

JJ isn't bagging on his teammates. he isn't saying that he can't be happy in Phoenix. He's just saying he would prefer to be in Atlanta. He'll feel wanted enough when we match the offer, and they get a chance to sit down and show him how he's one of the main pieces this team will be built around for the future.

Match the offer.

Finally, I agreed with Sarver last summer. I was wrong of course, but I thought it was the right decision at the time. I really think he Sarver is catching too much heat for that part of the problem. The six-year/60 million offer this year was just stupid. It served no other purpose than to upset JJ and his agent. That was just ridiculous.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

I can understand why JJ would want to leave if he feels like a fourth option. I've been holding off on the "told you so" posts for a while, but I can't take it any longer. I was ridiculed over and over for suggesting that JJ might want to leave, and there was a legitimate possibility it could happen.

That said, is still think the Phoenix Suns will match the offer. JJ might be the third or fourth option now, but within the next two years he and Amare will be the two-man "core" this team builds around. I think that's true regardless of whether Nash and/or Shawn Marion are traded.

JJ isn't bagging on his teammates. he isn't saying that he can't be happy in Phoenix. He's just saying he would prefer to be in Atlanta. He'll feel wanted enough when we match the offer, and they get a chance to sit down and show him how he's one of the main pieces this team will be built around for the future.

Match the offer.

Finally, I agreed with Sarver last summer. I was wrong of course, but I thought it was the right decision at the time. I really think he Sarver is catching too much heat for that part of the problem. The six-year/60 million offer this year was just stupid. It served no other purpose than to upset JJ and his agent. That was just ridiculous.

Joe Mama

Since when were you "ridiculed"? Maybe people didn't believe you, but don't try to make yourself more than you are.

 

[Gorilla]

I believe that JJ is saying what he is being told to say and not what he really means. The agent doesn't mind if JJ makes 70 million with the Suns or with the Hawks, he just wants JJ to make the most money he can, so he can cash in on his %.

The Hawks haven't really showed extreme interest in JJ. The suns already made an offer to JJ for less than the reported 70 million. The suns know that by saying they'll match any offer they can draw attention away from JJ, so Tellem has to find a way to keep teams interested in offering a contract.

We all know that now a days if a player doesn't want to play for a team, he won't and eventually get it done the way he wants.

I for one, call bluff.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Besides.........come December 15th (when newly signed free agents can be traded)...........if the Suns ever get the urge to upgrade the lineup....or make a change for another "big"....you can be assured that JJ will be high on the list of potential departees.

Most likely not. JJ will be a BYC player so there will need to be a third team involved, or someone with a lot of cap space. The only two teams that will probably have a lot of cap space during the year will be Atlanta and NO. If we don't get what we want out of Atlanta now, I don't think we will later. And NO hasn't shown any interest in Joe at all.

Like I said in the other thread, the Suns cannot get Marvin Williams back since he signed his rookie deal. I agree that there is no way they deal Smith, so there is no reason not to match.

The real question is whether they look at sign and trades with other teams now. I brought up in another thread that Cleveland could send Jackson and Gooden for Joe without renegging on their deal with Hughes. Not sure how good the Cavs would be, but they would be a blast to watch. I really don't see any sign and trade deal being better than those two anyways.


The Suns just need to match it and deal with it later.

 

[azn822]

The six-year/60 million offer this year was just stupid. It served no other purpose than to upset JJ and his agent. That was just ridiculous.

Business...It doesn't make much sense to offer JJ the max when you can have a chance to get him for cheaper. JJ was the first to say "It's a business" and "business comes first," in business, you're not suppose to take it to the heart. Anyways, It wasn't "ridiculous" to make that offer, it was that JJ got offended.

 

[wilecoyotesupergenius]

Most likely not. JJ will be a BYC player so there will need to be a third team involved, or someone with a lot of cap space. The only two teams that will probably have a lot of cap space during the year will be Atlanta and NO. If we don't get what we want out of Atlanta now, I don't think we will later. And NO hasn't shown any interest in Joe at all.

Like I said in the other thread, the Suns cannot get Marvin Williams back since he signed his rookie deal. I agree that there is no way they deal Smith, so there is no reason not to match.

The real question is whether they look at sign and trades with other teams now. I brought up in another thread that Cleveland could send Jackson and Gooden for Joe without renegging on their deal with Hughes. Not sure how good the Cavs would be, but they would be a blast to watch. I really don't see any sign and trade deal being better than those two anyways.


The Suns just need to match it and deal with it later.

FYI...

1. The Clippers and the Bobcats should be significantly under the cap as well.
2. Trades involving BYC players don't require teams under the cap...nor do they require a third team...it just makes it more difficult without them. Teams that trade first year BYC players can only accept 1/2 their contract value in return...but any exchange in a multi-player swap whose salaries exceed $28 mil should be within the 125% threshold...and therefore will fit the cba guidelines.
Example simply for the "math": Suns could send JJ's $15.5 mil salary hit ($12 mil salary + $3.5 bonus)...but only $7.75 mil BYC return....and Marion $14 mil...........to Minnesota in return for KG ($18 mil) + Sam Cassell ($6.1 mil).

Suns send out $14 + BYC $$7.75 = $21.75 trade dollars = $29.5 real dollars
Suns receive $18 + $6.1 = $24.1.......................within 125% + $100K

Minn sends out $24.1 mil
Minn receives $29.5 mil......................................within 125% + 100K

(The new 125% instead of 115% rule makes trading BYC players a little easier than last year...although it still requires creative thinking)

3. NO hasn't shown any interest in JJ because he is restricted. NO has a nice young point...an athletic 2/3...a non-scoring but athletic 4 in Anderson...and Magloire. They need scoring...bad. Any scorer. And FYI....NO is the closest non-Texas team to JJs home of Little Rock (not that I am advocating a trade there...just responding to your comment).

4. Rookie contracts and newly signed free agent contracts can be traded after December 15th (which is what I said in my thread).

5. You mention sign and trades with Cavs now....if JJ signs the offer sheet with Atlanta...as stated in the reports which created all these threads....then a sign and trade CAN'T be done (it can only be done if he doesn't sign Atlanta's offer sheet).

6. "The Suns just need to match it and deal with it later"........exactly the point of my thread.

 

[George O'Brien]

-

"Johnson, though, insists that his play and commitment to the Suns wouldn't be affected if a signed Hawks offer sheet results in a return to the desert.
'I would come back and work as hard as I ever have,' Johnson said. 'If they match, all this stuff is behind me from that minute on. I hope everybody [in Phoenix] puts everything behind them, too'."

That's all that matters.

 

[Mad Psyentist]

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't JJ still have to wait til Tuesday to sign the offer sheet? Wouldnt that mean that he still needs to "sell it" to Atlanta so they keep the offer sheet on the table rather than pulling out at the last second?

If this is all true then i can understand him making these comments just to keep the offer sheet on the table. Him and his agent are probably doing this in response to the suns latest actions of letting Jake go and coming out publicly saying they will match. Im sure Atlanta was hesistating because of these moves and still need a little bit of convincing

If im also not mistaken, other restricted free agents who actually did want to leave their respective teams made their comments after they signed their offer sheets. Ill wait to see what JJ says after he actually signs his offer sheet before i pass judgement.

Also, from everything ive read about this whole situation so far, it seems like he wants to keep his offer sheet on the table rather than letting the suns set his price. Without Atlanta, there arent any other suitors willing to bid on JJ at this point. He doesnt want to be forced to take the suns offer...and i can understand that...10 mil more is still 10 mil last i checked, regardless of loyalty.

Honestly...i dont think we would be hearing all these comments from JJ right now if it wasnt for the delay waiting for the new CBA.

 

[coloradosun]

I do think the Hawks are considering pulling the offer. Chandler and Curry may also get offers. The most likely of the three not to get matched is Curry.

There are a lot of restless people in Atlanta (just reading some of the Hawks boards), they need to fill several positions.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

are u guys crazy? Atl. is not going to pull their joe offer........talk about conspiracy theory.......

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

FYI...

1. The Clippers and the Bobcats should be significantly under the cap as well.
2. Trades involving BYC players don't require teams under the cap...nor do they require a third team...it just makes it more difficult without them. Teams that trade first year BYC players can only accept 1/2 their contract value in return...but any exchange in a multi-player swap whose salaries exceed $28 mil should be within the 125% threshold...and therefore will fit the cba guidelines.
Example simply for the "math": Suns could send JJ's $15.5 mil salary hit ($12 mil salary + $3.5 bonus)...but only $7.75 mil BYC return....and Marion $14 mil...........to Minnesota in return for KG ($18 mil) + Sam Cassell ($6.1 mil).

Suns send out $14 + BYC $$7.75 = $21.75 trade dollars = $29.5 real dollars
Suns receive $18 + $6.1 = $24.1.......................within 125% + $100K

Minn sends out $24.1 mil
Minn receives $29.5 mil......................................within 125% + 100K

(The new 125% instead of 115% rule makes trading BYC players a little easier than last year...although it still requires creative thinking)

3. NO hasn't shown any interest in JJ because he is restricted. NO has a nice young point...an athletic 2/3...a non-scoring but athletic 4 in Anderson...and Magloire. They need scoring...bad. Any scorer. And FYI....NO is the closest non-Texas team to JJs home of Little Rock (not that I am advocating a trade there...just responding to your comment).

4. Rookie contracts and newly signed free agent contracts can be traded after December 15th (which is what I said in my thread).

5. You mention sign and trades with Cavs now....if JJ signs the offer sheet with Atlanta...as stated in the reports which created all these threads....then a sign and trade CAN'T be done (it can only be done if he doesn't sign Atlanta's offer sheet).

6. "The Suns just need to match it and deal with it later"........exactly the point of my thread.

Forgot that the Clips haven't done anything either. The Bobcats won't want to pay Joe most likely, unless he blows up in the first 2 months of the season. They are big on saving their space for next summer.

I know that the Suns could do a trade with Marion and Joe that would work (I am the one that first put the Minny deals up). The Suns wouldn't do a trade with both unless it landed them KG though. That is probably the only scenario where it could happen, so in other words it isn't very realistic.

I know that S&Ts have to be done before the offer sheet is signed. Not sure where that matters.

Johnson could definitely play in NO, but with Shinn's refusal to do anything in free agency I am not sure that they want to take any salary on at all right now.

Just to clarify, you actually just mentioned newly signed FAs in your first post (although rookie's can be looked at that ways). You also said any deal needs to start with Marvin Williams. That is why I brought up that you can't trade rookies.

 

[Mad Psyentist]

are u guys crazy? Atl. is not going to pull their joe offer........talk about conspiracy theory.......

My thinking is that they still could pull their offer at the last second, and thats not unheard of and could still have been a real possibility if JJ hadnt made his latest comments. Him and his agent needed to keep atlanta convinced because the suns were telling people now that they were going to match and trading Jake had most people convinced of this.

I mean, look how most suns fans reacted...some of us thought sarver wasnt going to match which had a lot of suns fans worried, but then they came out publicly saying they would and everyone was here was relieved, and now after jj's comments, theres doubt again about keeping jj and some fans saying they dont want him here.

Chances are that Atlanta wont pull the offer and the suns will match and everyone will be happy, including JJ.

All this talk from JJ and his agent is just them trying to pull a fast one on Atlanta to get the deal they want that the suns havent given them. They just want the money and im sure JJ still wants to be a sun but needs to say the right things to keep the smokescreen going.

I mean honestly now...take a step back...who the heck would really want to go to atlanta?? hasnt everyone learned from past free agents who say they wanted to go there?

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Sarver should take heat, I love it Phoenix is finally growing into a real sports town. Maybe some of you care more about the gorilla and sarver doing halftime stripteases smacking each other on the ass with big #1 fingers but I love the fact themedia is all over this it makes me feel like I am in a real sports town for the first time.

Make this guy sweat. Hey Bob you're in the big leagues and the decsions you make will get you ripped so be more careful next time in the way you treat your stars.

So do any of you think Sarver will think twice about getting Amare's deal done now?

 

[AnotherHOMER]

**** em. Sign and trade. Amare is the future, peace Joe. Have fun getting double teamed.

-****

 

[Joe Mama]

Business...It doesn't make much sense to offer JJ the max when you can have a chance to get him for cheaper. JJ was the first to say "It's a business" and "business comes first," in business, you're not suppose to take it to the heart. Anyways, It wasn't "ridiculous" to make that offer, it was that JJ got offended.

it was ridiculous. It was a lowball offer at that point, and they should have been smart enough to see that there was no way he was going to take it. Sure, there might have been a chance to get JJ cheaper, but they weren't going to get him on a contract averaging $10 million per season when Michael Redd and Ray Allen had just received deals averaging $15-16 million per season.

Look, I'll be the first person to say that all of these guys are ridiculously overpaid. IMO the biggest guys in the game shouldn't get $14 million per season. That's just crazy money. They could play one year and retire a rich man without ever doing any endorsement deals or anything. That's nuts. It's worse when we are talking about guys that are the third or fourth best players on their teams. I like the Bell signing, but that money is absolutely insane. He's going to make $30 million over the next five seasons as a sixth man!

Now that I have that out of my system... I don't think JJ should be "offended" by the refusal to give him $50 million last summer. I still don't think at that point he had shown that he was going to be worth it, and there was a significant risk that he would go back into his shell like before when he played with good teammates.

But this summer it was clear that JJ is a hot commodity. Once Michael Redd and Ray Allen got their offers it was clear that if JJ was not restricted he would get the max from somebody. He probably would have been Cleveland's first option. I'm not saying the Phoenix Suns had to immediately offer a maximum contract, but their first offered definitely should have been better. There was no way he was going to accept six years/$60 million. They should have offered something like six years/$70 million. I doubt that would have gotten it done, but at least it wouldn't have been a slap in the face.

Joe

 

[JS22]

it was ridiculous. It was a lowball offer at that point, and they should have been smart enough to see that there was no way he was going to take it. Sure, there might have been a chance to get JJ cheaper, but they weren't going to get him on a contract averaging $10 million per season when Michael Redd and Ray Allen had just received deals averaging $15-16 million per season.

Look, I'll be the first person to say that all of these guys are ridiculously overpaid. IMO the biggest guys in the game shouldn't get $14 million per season. That's just crazy money. They could play one year and retire a rich man without ever doing any endorsement deals or anything. That's nuts. It's worse when we are talking about guys that are the third or fourth best players on their teams. I like the Bell signing, but that money is absolutely insane. He's going to make $30 million over the next five seasons as a sixth man!

Now that I have that out of my system... I don't think JJ should be "offended" by the refusal to give him $50 million last summer. I still don't think at that point he had shown that he was going to be worth it, and there was a significant risk that he would go back into his shell like before when he played with good teammates.

But this summer it was clear that JJ is a hot commodity. Once Michael Redd and Ray Allen got their offers it was clear that if JJ was not restricted he would get the max from somebody. He probably would have been Cleveland's first option. I'm not saying the Phoenix Suns had to immediately offer a maximum contract, but their first offered definitely should have been better. There was no way he was going to accept six years/$60 million. They should have offered something like six years/$70 million. I doubt that would have gotten it done, but at least it wouldn't have been a slap in the face.

Joe

I agree. The latest offer was a total slap in the face. Can't say I wouldnt be pissed as well. If I were Sarver, instead of offering an insulting deal, I would have just told JJ that we plan on matching any deal thrown your way, so go out and find your value.

 

[George O'Brien]

I would be SO insulted with a $60 million deal.

 

[Joe Mama]

I would be SO insulted with a $60 million deal.

think of the relative to your income. How would you feel if you hadn't been offered the salary you wanted last year... told to prove that you were worth it. You go have a great year in whatever you do, other comparable workers are offered big salaries, your company says it will do whatever it takes to keep you, but then they start with an offer that is 35% less than what these other guys were offered? You would be upset and rightfully so.

The money is outrageous. It's ridiculous, and I wish there was some way to turn back time and get the salaries under control. That's not the point.

Joe Mama

 

[JS22]

I would be SO insulted with a $60 million deal.

You obviously dont get my point.

 

[myrondizzo]

think of the relative to your income. How would you feel if you hadn't been offered the salary you wanted last year... told to prove that you were worth it. You go have a great year in whatever you do, other comparable workers are offered big salaries, your company says it will do whatever it takes to keep you, but then they start with an offer that is 35% less than what these other guys were offered? You would be upset and rightfully so.

The money is outrageous. It's ridiculous, and I wish there was some way to turn back time and get the salaries under control. That's not the point.

Joe Mama

they offered him 20% more than he said he wanted last year so i dont see how he could be offended.