Just plain Disgusting

minercon

Registered
Joined
May 22, 2002
Posts
202
Reaction score
0
As I sit here I am just shaking my head. I don't care what all of you say or write, the simple truth of the matter is that enough tweaking of this team has been done for the year. We are going nowhere anytime soon and I wonder what page the Colangelos are on. After watching the DBacks get ambushed and blown apart, it will take years to get them back to where they were in 2001. The Suns are not far behind. Nothing surprises me anymore. Don't be surprised if Amare or Marion are traded away within the next two years.

How funny I thought it was that Amare was sent home before the clock turned twelve...off course the storm was at the tarmacs doorstep. I've never seen a player sent home so fast. It is almost as if the C's wanted a top spot in the upcoming lottery, so take Amare out.

To be honest the buck stops at the C's door. For years now they have hired YOUNG inexperienced coaches. There is nothing like paying ones dues. To the few on this board that are older we can all tell you there is nothing like experience. One changes his outlook, perspective, his thoughts and actions as one matures. We laugh at what we did when we were 18 and 25. You would think that the C's would have grown up too, but IMO they have not. I feel it is too late to change coaches at this point. However, if we don't, what damage will it do for obtaining free agents. They were talking on TV last night that McGrady was thinking of retiring. When you are on a losing team your top players just want to LEAVE. That is what our players will do. The C's truly blew it when they did not let Frank go at the end of last year and pick from a pool, that I have never seen larger, of experienced coaches that were available. We probably would have only considered about 6 to be good enough, but you need to catch the bird before he flies away.

Watching these games is discouraging. It must be worse for the players who just can't seem to keep a lead or gain enough momentum and will power to win. The blame is on the C's and the coach. We have not reached bottom yet, but we are sinking like a lead bomb.
 
Last edited:

scotsman13

Registered User
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Posts
1,418
Reaction score
0
Location
salt lake city
last year frank johnson took at team that was picked to finish 28th and got them into the playoffs and gave the spurs as hard of a time as any team did. there was even some talk about coach of the year with him at the end of last season.

now understand frank wasnt hired beause he was a great o and x coach, it wasnt because he was a coach that could pull up a team by their boot straps, it was because he is a good teacher and developer of young players. has he done this? look at amare? look at zarko with what little time we have had him. look at barbosa and then last look at jake and then tell me that this coaching staff hasnt done a good job in teaching the young players. do i think that this is the coaching staff that will being us a championship? NO i dont. but even if it were we are still at least 3 years away from that time so the best thing we can do is give the team so time to develop its young player and grow together. this summer or next year we will be looking for a new coach and then we can start getting ready to make a real run for the gold.
 

Krangodnzr

Captain of Team Conner
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
36,494
Reaction score
34,484
Location
Charlotte, NC
Originally posted by scotsman13
last year frank johnson took at team that was picked to finish 28th and got them into the playoffs and gave the spurs as hard of a time as any team did. there was even some talk about coach of the year with him at the end of last season.

now understand frank wasnt hired beause he was a great o and x coach, it wasnt because he was a coach that could pull up a team by their boot straps, it was because he is a good teacher and developer of young players. has he done this? look at amare? look at zarko with what little time we have had him. look at barbosa and then last look at jake and then tell me that this coaching staff hasnt done a good job in teaching the young players. do i think that this is the coaching staff that will being us a championship? NO i dont. but even if it were we are still at least 3 years away from that time so the best thing we can do is give the team so time to develop its young player and grow together. this summer or next year we will be looking for a new coach and then we can start getting ready to make a real run for the gold.

I don't know if I agree with you on your premise that Frank is a great teacher.

Amare really hasn't improved THAT much.

Zarko learned what he does playing 5 years of pro ball in Serbia, not the 4-5 months he's worked with Frank

Barbosa looks raw; saying that Frank has done anything for his game is misguided. He relies almost purely on physical ability...
 

Joe Mama

Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
9,501
Reaction score
964
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Originally posted by scotsman13
last year frank johnson took at team that was picked to finish 28th and got them into the playoffs and gave the spurs as hard of a time as any team did. there was even some talk about coach of the year with him at the end of last season.

now understand frank wasnt hired beause he was a great o and x coach, it wasnt because he was a coach that could pull up a team by their boot straps, it was because he is a good teacher and developer of young players. has he done this? look at amare? look at zarko with what little time we have had him. look at barbosa and then last look at jake and then tell me that this coaching staff hasnt done a good job in teaching the young players. do i think that this is the coaching staff that will being us a championship? NO i dont. but even if it were we are still at least 3 years away from that time so the best thing we can do is give the team so time to develop its young player and grow together. this summer or next year we will be looking for a new coach and then we can start getting ready to make a real run for the gold.

Frank Johnson might have gotten the most out of last year's team. I'm not sure about that. He and the coaching staff have done well with the young players so far. But let's not forget that Amare Stoudemire tore up the summer league before they had done much of anything with him. To be honest I'm not sure how much he has really progressed. He's getting more points because he's getting more touches. Anyhow, that's not my problem with this coaching staff.

At some point this team needs a coaching staff or at least a head coach with good team planning and gametime skills.

Joe Mama
 

kps0001

Warriors Come Out And Plaaaay!
Joined
Aug 14, 2003
Posts
1,271
Reaction score
8
Location
PHX
...and this year they have taken a few steps backwards. That, to me, is not a good teacher.
 

scotsman13

Registered User
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Posts
1,418
Reaction score
0
Location
salt lake city
krang did you see barbosa or zarko or even amare play in the summer play? i have. i live in salt lake and work about a mile from where they play the rookie mountian reeve. let me tell you there has been a lot of change in their games. if you had seen how lost amare was that first summer you would be shocked. he got by with his phycial ability and not from knowing how the game is played. just watching the defensive job that he did against o'neil a week or so ago shows how much he has grown as a player. sure o'neil outplayed him but he did a very good job of not giving him easy shots.
 

kps0001

Warriors Come Out And Plaaaay!
Joined
Aug 14, 2003
Posts
1,271
Reaction score
8
Location
PHX
good point scotsman. But Frank has yet to show me that he can get this personnel to gel together and play to the players strengths.
 

jbeecham

ASFN Addict
Joined
Sep 12, 2002
Posts
6,250
Reaction score
583
Location
Phoenix, AZ
The majority of Amare's progress has been attributed to Iavaroni and Grgurich in the articles that I've read.
 

Krangodnzr

Captain of Team Conner
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
36,494
Reaction score
34,484
Location
Charlotte, NC
Originally posted by scotsman13
krang did you see barbosa or zarko or even amare play in the summer play? i have. i live in salt lake and work about a mile from where they play the rookie mountian reeve. let me tell you there has been a lot of change in their games. if you had seen how lost amare was that first summer you would be shocked. he got by with his phycial ability and not from knowing how the game is played. just watching the defensive job that he did against o'neil a week or so ago shows how much he has grown as a player. sure o'neil outplayed him but he did a very good job of not giving him easy shots.

Maybe you are correct. You obviously have a leg up on me, being able to see the summer league.

Lucky duck! :thumbup:
 

Chaplin

Better off silent
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
46,462
Reaction score
16,990
Location
Round Rock, TX
Again, scotsman, Amare's development can be directly attributed to Iavaroni and Grgurich--that was explicitly stated early on. And don't start thinking that FJ is the guy that made Z what he is today. The guy has hardly practiced--remember the hernia? Z was looking good because he was a good player before he was drafted, not because FJ is such a great coach.
 

thegrahamcrackr

Registered User
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Posts
6,168
Reaction score
0
Location
Scottsdale, Az
Originally posted by Chaplin
Again, scotsman, Amare's development can be directly attributed to Iavaroni and Grgurich--that was explicitly stated early on. And don't start thinking that FJ is the guy that made Z what he is today. The guy has hardly practiced--remember the hernia? Z was looking good because he was a good player before he was drafted, not because FJ is such a great coach.

You beat me to it. Iavaroni is the one responsible for Amare and even Lil Jake's steady improvement. He is one of the better big men coaches in teh league, and has worked the Pete Newell camp for a while now.

Grgurich is simply the best assistant in the league at developing young players. That has been said by every head coach he has worked under, and if you watch the pre game workouts, many players from oppsing teams come up to him to say hello.


Frank is a good communicator. He can relate to the players, and is someone that they can feel comfterable talking to. That is proved by last year's change in the offense. However, that role is better suited for an assistant coach. The head coach is supposed to be the law, and the players need to respect that. I think that Frank is so accomodating that the players are to able to question his moves.

This situation is very similar to the one NJ is in IMO. The Nets had a good communicator and a coach players could easily relate to with Byron Scott (except for Kidd). They had an outstanding assistant in Eddie Jordan who basically ran the team.

The difference is the suns never had a great X and O guy as an assistant. They had a decent one in D'Antoni, but they had the element of surprise last season as well. Take away NJ's real coach, and they flounder. Take away our element of surprise, and give Frank to much credit (which may or may not have resulted in less imput from the assistants) and we flounder.

FJ rode the coattails of arguably the best coaching staff in the league. He also rode the coattails of 3 players needing to prove themselves. (Steph for the NJ deal, Marion for an allstar berth, and Amare for a rookie).
 

cly2tw

Registered User
Joined
Oct 26, 2002
Posts
5,832
Reaction score
0
A losing mentality is poison! For this reason alone, we must replace FJ with someone else. We need a coach like Sloan.
 

Errntknght

Registered User
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
6,342
Reaction score
319
Location
Phoenix
I won't re-quote Scotsmans long post. I agree with others that its likely from their reps and what has been said in the press that the assistant coaches are primarily responsible for the teaching/coaching of individual players, not FJ. Maybe FJ is a passable teacher, too, but what is evident from watching the team play is that it is the team aspects that are missing. It's not just Xs and Os, there is no plan of what kind of offense to have.

We got by last year by letting the guys play one-on-one, heck, they're good at it. With a lot of late game heroics we scraped into the playoffs and then SA freaked out for a while and handed us two games. When they settled down they beat us quite handily. Now from a distance, and you know the media experts are at a good distance, you might give FJ a lot of credit. Watching all the games intently I saw a team that was winning in spite of their coach - and harped on that point from December on.

This year, for some reason, the chemistry isn't the same and the heroics are not happening. Maybe it was giving JJ the starting spot based on summer league play and gifting Jahidi with one based on what I'm not sure. In any case, the coaching staff's shortcomings regarding team play are coming into better light, and it's lucky that its happening now while there is still time.

In fact there may not be enough time if the C's merely dump Frank and put Iavaroni/d'Antoni in change - unless he will tell the Colangeli that he needs an assistant who's very strong in Xs and Os. (There are several known cases where assistants have played that kind of a role - Eddie Jordan for Scott, Tex Winter for Jackson, Carlisle for Bird.) Between the two, I hope it's Iavaroni - because he has nothing in his experience except working with individual bigs so may be more inclined to admit he needs serious help with the team play aspects of the job. It'll be hard to do because you know the Colangeli are not going to enjoy hearing the coaching staff they have been bragging about has a gaping hole in it.

I think the chance the Cs will bring in any outsider is small and a 'name' outsider, non-existent. A 'name' guy will want more control than they have ever been willing to give up and besides he'll want his own assistants which will shred the whole of the current coaching staff.

I always try to find a ray of hope in this continuing saga of inepetness... maybe the NBA will step in and tell JC that his coaching choices are an embarrassment to the league - and give him a short list of established coaches to pick among. Another, more likely, scenario is BC becoming pals with someone like Fratello and they enter into a scheme whereby Fratello will ride into town quietly and with no sidekicks. Once he's there BC will keep JC off his back and let Fratello bring in his own assistants piecemeal. It's possible BC could see this as a way to wrest more power from daddy. Heck, as family infighting goes this is pretty tame...
 
Last edited:

Billythekid

All Star
Joined
Oct 11, 2002
Posts
693
Reaction score
0
Originally posted by scotsman13

now understand frank wasnt hired beause he was a great o and x coach, it wasnt because he was a coach that could pull up a team by their boot straps, it was because he is a good teacher and developer of young players.

This is the reason he should've stayed as an assistant rather then head coach.
 

scotsman13

Registered User
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Posts
1,418
Reaction score
0
Location
salt lake city
hey guys dont get me wrong i am not happy with the way FJ is running the team. there are a lot of things i would change. first and formost we need to get better spacing on the floor on both the offensive and defensive end. we need set plays that arent stand around the outside and pass the ball around till someone takes a bad shoot at the last second. we need a system that will take better advanage of our teams strenghts and not just what the coach want them to run.
 

Gee!

BirdGang
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2003
Posts
26,222
Reaction score
25
Location
Gee From The G
Doc Rivers? I know he ain't got that much experience either, but he is the only one I can think of at the helm for us at this point.
 

Latest posts

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
556,055
Posts
5,431,310
Members
6,329
Latest member
cardinals2025
Top