Justin Upton is a huge disappointment!

[HoodieBets]

Justin Upton did not hit a home run today!

But he did today!

 

[TJ]

Some people will never be able to understand the concept of addition by subtraction....
This theory applies in BOTH the Upton and Bauer trades. Nobody would ever argue Upton's skills and potential. But, that doesn't mean he was the right fit for this team.
I honestly couldn't care any less if he went on to hit 40 HR's and drove in 120 runs this year for the Braves. Bottom line is that Towers, Gibby and others didn't feel he was the right fit here in Arizona. Period.

Trust me. I know what addition by subtraction means, but that isn't the case here. When Towers took over, he created a distraction by telling the entire league and its fans that Upton was available for trade with nothing surfacing for almost two years. When the trade finally transpired, we were collectively left with our jaws open in disbelief in how bad we got fleeced.

Also, a player like Upton can be a right fit on every team in the league. I don't buy that he could not have worked in AZ, and right now, he's apart of arguably the best outfield in MLB.

So Towers and Gibby allegedly didn't want Upton. Fine. However, if you're going to trade the team's most valuable asset, you'd better get equal or better value in return. For two years, Towers kept posturing and trying to find the right deal. What he failed to realize was he was eroding Upton's value by keeping him on the block for so long that teams were calling his bluff. It only got worse when the Seattle deal was nixed, which left Towers to settle for Prado and a box of louisville sluggers.

Now, Upton is hitting the snot out of the ball in ATL. And he's 25-years-old, which means if he continues to play at this level, which I believe he will, this is something we're going to have to watch for 7-10 years and say to ourselves, "what if."

Bottom line--it was a very lopsided deal in favor of the Braves. Upton on this squad is more valuable than anything we received in return. The whole situation was poorly managed, IMO.

 

[Lefty]

Trust me. I know what addition by subtraction means, but that isn't the case here. When Towers took over, he created a distraction by telling the entire league and its fans that Upton was available for trade with nothing surfacing for almost two years. When the trade finally transpired, we were collectively left with our jaws open in disbelief in how bad we got fleeced.

Also, a player like Upton can be a right fit on every team in the league. I don't buy that he could not have worked in AZ, and right now, he's apart of arguably the best outfield in MLB.

So Towers and Gibby allegedly didn't want Upton. Fine. However, if you're going to trade the team's most valuable asset, you'd better get equal or better value in return. For two years, Towers kept posturing and trying to find the right deal. What he failed to realize was he was eroding Upton's value by keeping him on the block for so long that teams were calling his bluff. It only got worse when the Seattle deal was nixed, which left Towers to settle for Prado and a box of louisville sluggers.

Now, Upton is hitting the snot out of the ball in ATL. And he's 25-years-old, which means if he continues to play at this level, which I believe he will, this is something we're going to have to watch for 7-10 years and say to ourselves, "what if."

Bottom line--it was a very lopsided deal in favor of the Braves. Upton on this squad is more valuable than anything we received in return. The whole situation was poorly managed, IMO.

It still pisses me off how much Towers screwed this up. The Diamondbacks got taken.

 

[DWKB]

The thing is that Upton wouldn't be posting these numbers with the Dbacks. Prado will like play just about as well for us as Justin would have, but Prado seems to be bringing a certain unselfishness and professionalism to the team that we just weren't getting from Upton.

Point being that I think this trade will be good for both teams and not just the Braves.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

You say this with such conviction like you have proof or maybe just some sort of divinity. I'd like to see it or otherwise it just comes off as wishfull thinking IMO. As John Stewart would say, "Keep polishing that turd!!".

 

[BC867]

You say this with such conviction like you have proof or maybe just some sort of divinity. I'd like to see it or otherwise it just comes off as wishfull thinking IMO. As John Stewart would say, "Keep polishing that turd!!".

But that's the point!

Upton did what he did with the D'backs. That's the proof for that.

At the end of the season, we will see what he will have done for the Braves. That will be the proof for that.

But it will never represent an indication of what he would have done in 2013 if he spent another year with the D'backs. If it would have, it would have happened last year.

It is completely different circumstances!

Would we have the record we have so far this season if Upton and Young were still doing what they did?

If we simply replaced either of them with clones, we wouldn't be the 2013 D'backs. We'd be the 2012 D'backs in 2013.

I am thrilled that Kirk Gibson is managing like a National League manager, and it is working. It wouldn't be working with Upton in the heart of the order not driving in runs or with Young's popups and strikeouts.

How do we know? Where's the fact? Look at 2012. That is how we know! That's the fact, Jack!

 

[Lefty]

But that's the point!

Upton did what he did with the D'backs. That's the proof for that.

At the end of the season, we will see what he will have done for the Braves. That will be the proof for that.

But it will never represent an indication of what he would have done in 2013 if he spent another year with the D'backs. If it would have, it would have happened last year.

It is completely different circumstances!

Would we have the record we have so far this season if Upton and Young were still doing what they did?

If we simply replaced either of them with clones, we wouldn't be the 2013 D'backs. We'd be the 2012 D'backs in 2013.

I am thrilled that Kirk Gibson is managing like a National League manager, and it is working. It wouldn't be working with Upton in the heart of the order not driving in runs or with Young's popups and strikeouts.

How do we know? Where's the fact? Look at 2012. That is how we know! That's the fact, Jack!

That's funny, you have been Gibson's #1 hater on this board. When do you start your campaign for Chip Hale as the next manager for the Diamondbacks?

 

[DWKB]

But that's the point!

Upton did what he did with the D'backs. That's the proof for that.

At the end of the season, we will see what he will have done for the Braves. That will be the proof for that.

But it will never represent an indication of what he would have done in 2013 if he spent another year with the D'backs. If it would have, it would have happened last year.

It is completely different circumstances!

Would we have the record we have so far this season if Upton and Young were still doing what they did?

If we simply replaced either of them with clones, we wouldn't be the 2013 D'backs. We'd be the 2012 D'backs in 2013.

I am thrilled that Kirk Gibson is managing like a National League manager, and it is working. It wouldn't be working with Upton in the heart of the order not driving in runs or with Young's popups and strikeouts.

How do we know? Where's the fact? Look at 2012. That is how we know! That's the fact, Jack!

I don't know where to start, the BS assumptions, the myopic lack of history or the assured way this crap was throw against the wall like it actually is insightful.

 

[BC867]

That's funny, you have been Gibson's #1 hater on this board. When do you start your campaign for Chip Hale as the next manager for the Diamondbacks?

Have you noticed that Gibby has changed his approach? He is now coaching NL baseball and going with more set batting orders?

I didn't hate Kirk Gibson. I disliked his actions. Attack problems, not people.

I am thrilled to see the way he has obviously changed his managerial approach. And with the results.

 

[BC867]

I don't know where to start, the BS assumptions, the myopic lack of history or the assured way this crap was throw against the wall like it actually is insightful.

'Hard to debate comebacks like that!!!???

Let's compare the hot starts of the player who closed last season as our #5 hitter and the one who started this season as our #5 hitter.

PLAYER...GAMES...BAVG...RUNS...HR...RBI...
J-UP..........12...... .348......12......6.....11....
GOLDY.......12...... .348......10......2.....10....

JUp's 6 HR's have driven in 1 additional RBI than Goldy's 2 HR's with the exact same batting average after their first 12 games.

Justin Upton has started with a big splash while Paul Goldschmidt has quietly done the same while fulfilling Upton's #5 spot in the batting order.

 

[JS22]

Just some interesting numbers...

Runners on Base: .222
Runners in Scoring Position: .250
Bases Empty: .429

Now, Goldschmidt:

Runners on Base: .476
Runners in Scoring Position: .400
Bases Empty: .240

Polar opposites.

 

[DWKB]

'Hard to debate comebacks like that!!!???

Let's compare the hot starts of the player who closed last season as our #5 hitter and the one who started this season as our #5 hitter.

PLAYER...GAMES...BAVG...RUNS...HR...RBI...
J-UP..........12...... .348......12......6.....11....
GOLDY.......12...... .348......10......2.....10....

JUp's 6 HR's have driven in 1 additional RBI than Goldy's 2 HR's with the exact same batting average after their first 12 games.

Justin Upton has started with a big splash while Paul Goldschmidt has quietly done the same while fulfilling Upton's #5 spot in the batting order.

If you're a GM and you base your perspective production of a player on RBIs then you've already lost. That type of antiquated 1950's philosophy no longer takes place in successful front offices. You're arguments are old and short sighted. There was nothing preventing both Upton and Goldy from being on the same team. If you have to resort to a false dichotomy to make your point then you most likely don't have a good one, of which you don't.

 

[BC867]

If you're a GM and you base your perspective production of a player on RBIs then you've already lost. That type of antiquated 1950's philosophy no longer takes place in successful front offices. You're arguments are old and short sighted. There was nothing preventing both Upton and Goldy from being on the same team. If you have to resort to a false dichotomy to make your point then you most likely don't have a good one, of which you don't.

I think you missed the point. As hot as JUp is with the Braves, Goldy is right there with him on the most important stat of a game -- runs (driven in and scored), despite JUp's HR total.

And as JS22 pointed out, Goldy is beating the hell out of JUp in two equally important stats -- hitting in the clutch. Runners on base and runners in scoring position.

Justin is beating the hell out of him with the bases empty. That would be good for a leadoff hitter, but not a 5-hole hitter.

"Old". "Short sighted". Negative generalizations. What are your positive points about comparing Goldy taking over JUp's #5 spot in our batting order?

 

[Lefty]

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/playerrankings

 

[DWKB]

I think you missed the point. As hot as JUp is with the Braves, Goldy is right there with him on the most important stat of a game -- runs (driven in and scored), despite JUp's HR total.

And as JS22 pointed out, Goldy is beating the hell out of JUp in two equally important stats -- hitting in the clutch. Runners on base and runners in scoring position.

Justin is beating the hell out of him with the bases empty. That would be good for a leadoff hitter, but not a 5-hole hitter.

"Old". "Short sighted". Negative generalizations. What are your positive points about comparing Goldy taking over JUp's #5 spot in our batting order?

The only reasons I can guess on why you've chosen to change the discussion from Upton ATL vs Upton ARI to Upton ATL vs Goldy is that you can't follow the dialog or you know you've lost your original argument.

 

[BC867]

The only reasons I can guess on why you've chosen to change the discussion from Upton ATL vs Upton ARI to Upton ATL vs Goldy is that you can't follow the dialog or you know you've lost your original argument.

This thread is not about me, DWKB. It is about Justin Upton.

You are indeed a master-debater.

 

[82CardsGrad]

As I said, nobody would stupid enough (I think...) to argue the immense talent Upton possesses.
For me, I favor the move of shipping him out of town... As I mentioned earlier, Prado brings much more utility and now, with Hill being out 4-6 weeks, Prado is able to move to second base when needed - like tonight.
Coupled with his extremely low strikeout rate and his ability to make pitchers work, put the bat on the ball, move runners, etc... I just like this move, period...
Also, we're about to get a glimpse of DiDi very soon as he's now been activitated as Hill was put on the DL. Along with Willie out, I again like the move Towers made in getting rid of the massive head-case (Bauer), who was already sent back to the minors...

All that said, let's see how this all plays out come August/September. Lots of games to play...

 

[AzStevenCal]

As I said, nobody would stupid enough (I think...) to argue the immense talent Upton possesses.
For me, I favor the move of shipping him out of town... As I mentioned earlier, Prado brings much more utility and now, with Hill being out 4-6 weeks, Prado is able to move to second base when needed - like tonight.
Coupled with his extremely low strikeout rate and his ability to make pitchers work, put the bat on the ball, move runners, etc... I just like this move, period...
Also, we're about to get a glimpse of DiDi very soon as he's now been activitated as Hill was put on the DL. Along with Willie out, I again like the move Towers made in getting rid of the massive head-case (Bauer), who was already sent back to the minors...

All that said, let's see how this all plays out come August/September. Lots of games to play...

I've never had a problem with trading him, I just don't like the fact we seemed to sabotage his value.

Steve

 

[jonberry]

As I said, nobody would stupid enough (I think...) to argue the immense talent Upton possesses.
For me, I favor the move of shipping him out of town... As I mentioned earlier, Prado brings much more utility and now, with Hill being out 4-6 weeks, Prado is able to move to second base when needed - like tonight.
Coupled with his extremely low strikeout rate and his ability to make pitchers work, put the bat on the ball, move runners, etc... I just like this move, period...
Also, we're about to get a glimpse of DiDi very soon as he's now been activitated as Hill was put on the DL. Along with Willie out, I again like the move Towers made in getting rid of the massive head-case (Bauer), who was already sent back to the minors...

All that said, let's see how this all plays out come August/September. Lots of games to play...

You mean the Justin Upton who sees an average of 4 pitches per at bats compared to Prado's 3.97? Prado sure is making them work harder. You can claim anything you want, but there is this wonderful invention called statistics that don't back up your claims.

 

[82CardsGrad]

You mean the Justin Upton who sees an average of 4 pitches per at bats compared to Prado's 3.97? Prado sure is making them work harder.

LOL... pitchers across the league consistently state that Prado has always been considered one of the toughest outs in the game. Season average strikeouts for the two are Upton @ 101 per season and Prado @ 39...
This year - thus far... which is what - 12 games?? Yes, Upton is having a Hall of Fame season. However, last I checked, MLB seasons run just a bit more than 12 games.

So, like I said, let's see how this all shakes out come August/September. Not mention a year or two from now...

 

[jonberry]

LOL... pitchers across the league consistently state that Prado has always been considered one of the toughest outs in the game. Season average strikeouts for the two are Upton @ 101 per season and Prado @ 39...
This year - thus far... which is what - 12 games?? Yes, Upton is having a Hall of Fame season. However, last I checked, MLB seasons run just a bit more than 12 games.

So, like I said, let's see how this all shakes out come August/September. Not mention a year or two from now...

Once again, a 20 second google search would help you. Martin Prado's career pitches per plate appearance is 3.86, Upton's is 3.97. Those are over 8 and 7 years respectively. Is that long enough for you?

 

[Lefty]

Justin just hit his 8th homer tonight. I really hope he hits 50+ homers this year.

 

[BC867]

Justin just hit his 8th homer tonight. I really hope he hits 50+ homers this year.

It should be noted that it was another solo HR. 8 homers and 12 RBI's this season.

Projected to 50 HR, that would be 75 RBI. Justin Upton is a unique ballplayer. Strangely unique!

Remember how Curt Schilling gave up a lot of homeruns, but most were with the bases empty. With runners on base, he was clutch. JUp is the opposite as a hitter.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Once again, a 20 second google search would help you. Martin Prado's career pitches per plate appearance is 3.86, Upton's is 3.97. Those are over 8 and 7 years respectively. Is that long enough for you?

Actually, it was less than a 20 second search... And yea, 8 & 7 years is most definitely long enough... which is why I gave their respective 8 & 7 year strikeout totals.

 

[txdbacksfan]

Actually, it was less than a 20 second search... And yea, 8 & 7 years is most definitely long enough... which is why I gave their respective 8 & 7 year strikeout totals.

What do strikeouts mean to you? On average, power hitters will strike out considerably more than your Martin Prado types. A healthy Justin will strikeout 120+ times, similar to your Josh Hamiltons and Ryan Brauns of the world (and at this K-rate, it isn't enough to be anywhere near the top 10 in the league in modern ball). Someone like Giancarlo Stanton will strikeout 160+ times. And three-outcomes types of players like Dunn of course have the ability to strikeout much more. I don't see why you'd focus on strikeouts, since it has little correlation with team runs scored.

Anyways, Justin's OPS is 1.306 right now, about .200 points higher than anyone else in the NL. Will he stay this hot? Nope, nobody except for a roided up Bonds can stay than hot.

But a monster MVP-year? Sure, I'm rooting for him.

 

[txdbacksfan]

It should be noted that it was another solo HR. 8 homers and 12 RBI's this season.

Projected to 50 HR, that would be 75 RBI. Justin Upton is a unique ballplayer. Strangely unique!

Remember how Curt Schilling gave up a lot of homeruns, but most were with the bases empty. With runners on base, he was clutch. JUp is the opposite as a hitter.

Justin has 12 RBIs because the hitters in front of him (BUpton/Heyward for the most part) have been ice cold. Certainly doesn't help your cause when you're hitting after the pitcher and two guys with a combined .275 OBP in front of you.