K1

[TaylorSwift]

I would really like to know the sequence of events and dialog that brought Kyler and Kliff together to the Cards. It might be a chicken or the egg discussion.

That makes Keim a bigger fool, because Kliff was already hired by before Keim jumped on the Murray Wagon.

So Keim would have gone into the season with Josh Rosen and Kliff Kingsbury as the QB and HC.


The bright side is that MB would clean house and fire Keim/Kingsbury and we would have been looking at Herbert/Burrow.

And maybe a top pass rusher like Bosa.


So there would have been a bright side to that hypothetical branch of the Keim fiasco

 

[SoonerLou]

I am not saying no one is there, but are they instructing him properly?

Look at how Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan routinely have plays to have people running wide open.

Every time a play is made, Kyler has to make a tight throw. Sometimes he forces it, but other times nothing else is there and thats the play that has to be made.

I see that way to much. Thats a scheme issue.

Is Kliff unable to know how to scheme wrs open by attack a defenses weak points?

I have not seen any of that acumen from Kliff this season .


Why expect a guy who couldnt even scheme against college defenses to come in and cook up great playcalls and scheme against defenses that are 10x everything?

This gets overlooked so often. On one hand people are upset that Kyler isnt operating the offense at high level consistently. However, if you look at the history of young QBs that won not many were asked to carry the team. Throwing 50 (yes I know he's not doing that every game) times isnt a recipe for success for a young QB. And it can even be tough for vets. High level passers like Big Ben and Russ had issues this season when asked to simply drop back/throw carry the team.

Kyler's issue is inconsistency. Usually young QBs are asked to pass the quiz. Kyler is asked to pass the test. There's not a lot of variety in our run game outside of Kyler taking off. So with that we dont create those wide open passing plays like a Shanahan or McVay.

Even when their running game isnt working its usually a setup for another. We tend to throw horizonal passes as a setup for something else. Imo there are times when Kliff has to have a feel for what kind of game it is. If its an Eagles shootout keep it humming. However, when its a slugfest we need to be able to adjust accordingly. Now as I've said before if he's got the personnel then he can just do his thing. However, we need a legit run action at times and scale things back.

 

[Southpaw]

That makes Keim a bigger fool, because Kliff was already hired by before Keim jumped on the Murray Wagon.

Conjecture.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

But how do you know that KK isn't calling plays that are intended to have people running wide open? And is it only KK's fault that Kyler consistently throws into tight windows, or, can it be that Kyler isn't seeing the field properly and therefore, isn't seeing when guys are open (I have seen this on multiple occasions with Kyler throwing to the wrong guy - or, the guy that wasn't as open as someone, or some other were).

Also, many times a QB has to stay in the pocket for another .5 second or so until a guy breaks clear. Many times a QB has to slide in the pocket, move his feet and adjust his eyes until guys break open...

These are definitely legit points, but you’d think we’d see the wide open guy more than once a game if there were consistently open guys. You’d also think the sports writers and shows would pick up on that and be harping on it, right? I’ve definitely seen them point it out before. But we aren’t seeing/hearing much of that, are we? That leads me to lean towards the assumption that its not being the case frequently.

 

[TaylorSwift]

Conjecture.

I never heard of Keim being sold on drafting Murray until later in the year after he hired Kingsbury.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Conjecture.

Look what I’ve started.

 

[TaylorSwift]

This gets overlooked so often. On one hand people are upset that Kyler isnt operating the offense at high level consistently. However, if you look at the history of young QBs that won not many were asked to carry the team. Throwing 50 (yes I know he's not doing that every game) times isnt a recipe for success for a young QB. And it can even be tough for vets. High level passers like Big Ben and Russ had issues this season when asked to simply drop back/throw carry the team.

Kyler's issue is inconsistency. Usually young QBs are asked to pass the quiz. Kyler is asked to pass the test. There's not a lot of variety in our run game outside of Kyler taking off. So with that we dont create those wide open passing plays like a Shanahan or McVay.

Even when their running game isnt working its usually a setup for another. We tend to throw horizonal passes as a setup for something else. Imo there are times when Kliff has to have a feel for what kind of game it is. If its an Eagles shootout keep it humming. However, when its a slugfest we need to be able to adjust accordingly. Now as I've said before if he's got the personnel then he can just do his thing. However, we need a legit run action at times and scale things back.

The inability to run the ball with runnings backs only is a back breaker over the long term.

Neither interior of the OL or Drake are very good and its been a blackhole for 6-7 games now.

 

[82CardsGrad]

There are too many instances of just more schematics.

You couldn't free wield this much as a qb and be as individually successful as he has.

The NFL is way too hard for that. Yes, Kyler misses stuff, but every qb does exactly what he does if not more on a weekly basis.

I think he is a top 10 qb already

My point is that most, if not all high-performing QB's remain in the pocket just long enough for their receivers to break free. It's not like receivers are open the second a QB says "hike!" Timing is crucial... And reading the defense pre and post-snap is essential. My opinion is that far too often, Kyler is locked onto a receiver pre-snap and when that guy isn't open, he pops out of the pocket...

Is Murray a top 10 QB??? Perhaps... but that isn't saying much currently. I mean, there is a serious void of top-tier QB talent at present. Rogers, Mahomes and Wilson remain at the top. And guys like Brady, Ben, Rivers & Brees are holding on but should be gone in the next year or two. Allen, Watson, Mayfield and Herbert are more than solid and coming on strong. I dunno... I'm more interested in W's.

 

[Southpaw]

Look what I’ve started.

I jumped on the bandwagon.

 

[82CardsGrad]

These are definitely legit points, but you’d think we’d see the wide open guy more than once a game if there were consistently open guys. You’d also think the sports writers and shows would pick up on that and be harping on it, right? I’ve definitely seen them point it out before. But we aren’t seeing/hearing much of that, are we? That leads me to lean towards the assumption that its not being the case frequently.

I'll just say that I happen to know a guy (former player) who has remained very close to the Cards, and whom points this out on a very regular basis...He shares a lot of my concerns about Kyler. I would even suggest that a few coaches and players are also concerned about his inability to find the open receiver more often.

 

[Southpaw]

I never heard of Keim being sold on drafting Murray until later in the year after he hired Kingsbury.

Well, I heard stories that say otherwise, which is why I said I would like to be privy to those conversations. One rumor has it that the Murray/Kingsbury package was a part of Kliff's pre hire interviews and Keim got all wet in the pants.

 

[SoonerLou]

The inability to run the ball with runnings backs only is a back breaker over the long term.

Neither interior of the OL or Drake are very good and its been a blackhole for 6-7 games now.

I agree neither is great. However, my issue is the versatility of it. Some games running from shotgun all game may not be what works. It may simply be runs from under center that helps out.

 

[Southpaw]

I'll just say that I happen to know a guy (former player) who has remained very close to the Cards, and whom points this out on a very regular basis...He shares a lot of my concerns about Kyler. I would even suggest that a few coaches and players are also concerned about his inability to find the open receiver more often.

The latest "in vogue" chatter is about throwing guys open. I don't see that here.

 

[82CardsGrad]

The latest "in vogue" chatter is about throwing guys open. I don't see that here.

Not at all...but, to be fair, that is a skill that often takes QB's a few years to grasp. That said, Allen and Herbert seem to have picked it up extremely quickly!

 

[SoonerLou]

Not at all...but, to be fair, that is a skill that often takes QB's a few years to grasp. That said, Allen and Herbert seem to have picked it up extremely quickly!

Herbert yes.

Allen had trouble hitting open guys for two years. If anything Allen is proof for having hope Kyler improves year 3.

 

[TaylorSwift]

My point is that most, if not all high-performing QB's remain in the pocket just long enough for their receivers to break free. It's not like receivers are open the second a QB says "hike!" Timing is crucial... And reading the defense pre and post-snap is essential. My opinion is that far too often, Kyler is locked onto a receiver pre-snap and when that guy isn't open, he pops out of the pocket...

Is Murray a top 10 QB??? Perhaps... but that isn't saying much currently. I mean, there is a serious void of top-tier QB talent at present. Rogers, Mahomes and Wilson remain at the top. And guys like Brady, Ben, Rivers & Brees are holding on but should be gone in the next year or two. Allen, Watson, Mayfield and Herbert are more than solid and coming on strong. I dunno... I'm more interested in W's.

Film, Id rather speak from an all-22 analysis and see what the scheme is.

Not at all...but, to be fair, that is a skill that often takes QB's a few years to grasp. That said, Allen and Herbert seem to have picked it up extremely quickly!

Allen was a significant weak point for the bills his first two seasons.....

 

[TaylorSwift]

Well, I heard stories that say otherwise, which is why I said I would like to be privy to those conversations. One rumor has it that the Murray/Kingsbury package was a part of Kliff's pre hire interviews and Keim got all wet in the pants.

That would make sense as if he wasnt successful with a Kingsbury/Rosen package, he was as good as gone.

Kyler would be with the 49ers ugh....

 

[daves]

Hmm I think you’re way off. His deep balls are more often overthrown or underthrown than directly on target.

After his rookie year, Murray was ranked #1 in the league in deep ball accuracy by Football Outsiders, and #6 by PFF. I haven't found similar numbers for 2020 but don't expect they'd be too different.

...dbs

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

My point is that most, if not all high-performing QB's remain in the pocket just long enough for their receivers to break free. It's not like receivers are open the second a QB says "hike!" Timing is crucial... And reading the defense pre and post-snap is essential. My opinion is that far too often, Kyler is locked onto a receiver pre-snap and when that guy isn't open, he pops out of the pocket...

Is Murray a top 10 QB??? Perhaps... but that isn't saying much currently. I mean, there is a serious void of top-tier QB talent at present. Rogers, Mahomes and Wilson remain at the top. And guys like Brady, Ben, Rivers & Brees are holding on but should be gone in the next year or two. Allen, Watson, Mayfield and Herbert are more than solid and coming on strong. I dunno... I'm more interested in W's.

Amazing how perception can be so different. I think we are in the middle of a QB Renaissance.

old guys:
Brady
Rodgers
Rivers
Big Ben
Brees
(Every single one of these guys is in the playoffs this year - crazy)

Wilson (gets his own category because he’s not “old” and not “young”)

young bucks:
Mahomes
Watson
Allen
Dak
Jackson
Kyler
(If cards make playoffs every single one of these guys has been a playoff QB)

acceptable vets:
Cousins
Goff
Mayfield
Tannehill
Carr
Stafford

High potential rooks:
Herbert
Tua
Burrows

and none of the above includes bridgwater or Ryan who might be acceptable game managers on a talented defense-driven team.

and we’ve got Lawrence entering the league next year. I think across the league this may be some of the best QB talent we’ve seen in a looong time.

 

[Southpaw]

Herbert yes.

Allen had trouble hitting open guys for two years. If anything Allen is proof for having hope Kyler improves year 3.

Allen's problems were mechanics. He had the tools going in Cannon arm, durability, size, attitude ,etc. Not sure if Murray has all of that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'll just say that I happen to know a guy (former player) who has remained very close to the Cards, and whom points this out on a very regular basis...He shares a lot of my concerns about Kyler. I would even suggest that a few coaches and players are also concerned about his inability to find the open receiver more often.

If that’s the case you possess more information than do the rest of us.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not at all...but, to be fair, that is a skill that often takes QB's a few years to grasp. That said, Allen and Herbert seem to have picked it up extremely quickly!

Outside of their #1 receivers they also have much more talented targets.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

After his rookie year, Murray was ranked #1 in the league in deep ball accuracy by Football Outsiders, and #6 by PFF. I haven't found similar numbers for 2020 but don't expect they'd be too different.

...dbs

Okay. Hasn’t been apparent to the naked eye. Can’t recall many deep passes hitting receivers in stride other than one to Kirk this year.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Okay. Hasn’t been apparent to the naked eye. Can’t recall many deep passes hitting receivers in stride other than one to Kirk this year.

I think they said during the broadcast that Murray is top 5 this year. I think it doesn't feel that way because he doesn't take as many shots as he should.

 

[daves]

I would really like to know the sequence of events and dialog that brought Kyler and Kliff together to the Cards. It might be a chicken or the egg discussion.

It's been written about over and over, and was showcased in Cardinals Flight Plan and other videos. No reason to doubt it unless you're inclined to believe in Mitch-level conspiracy theories like "Bruce Arians was actually fired by the Cardinals but even now he's still helping them cover it up" or "The Cardinals actually decided in January that they were going to draft Murray, then picked a coach to work with him, then made up a completely different story for <reasons>, everyone's sticking to the phony story and not a peep has leaked out to the contrary"....

...dbs

 

[SoonerLou]

Allen's problems were mechanics. He had the tools going in Cannon arm, durability, size, attitude ,etc. Not sure if Murray has all of that.

Allen missed several weeks his rookie year and was knocked out of a game his 2nd year.

Kyler's arm isnt the cannon that Allen's is, but is very strong. If Allen can improve mechanically why cant Kyler? Ken Dorsey is a really good QB coach.