Keim: Just Win 6 Games

[Krangodnzr]

The height of a player does not exactly equate to injury but how they fill out and their position. It's very possible that Murray is the least likely player at his position to get hurt if one accounts for his history from high school to college

I would be more concerned about Rosen. He had a few injuries in college, one that nearly wiped out a season, and two concussions.

Murray? Never heard a peep about any injuries.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I would be more concerned about Rosen. He had a few injuries in college, one that nearly wiped out a season, and two concussions.

Murray? Never heard a peep about any injuries.

I really have no concerns about Rosen after the beating he took and how he kept playing. It's a tough sport, and Palmer was probably the toughest guy we ever had at the position. I can even remember Plummer when he hurt his ribs and he would play and find himself flipping the cartilage back up between plays on some obscure injury. I have no injury concerns with Murray as the next guy

 

[kerouac9]

The height of a player does not exactly equate to injury but how they fill out and their position. It's very possible that Murray is the least likely player at his position to get hurt if one accounts for his history from high school to college

I know what each of these words mean, but in this sequence it doesn't mean much. The reality is that there isn't any sample size to say anything about a quarterback of Murray's dimensions and injury.

We do have a bigger knowledge base about RUNNING QBS, but I haven't found good research newer than this, which is now old: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/mobile-quarterbacks-and-injury-risk

You end up having people like Krang and other say, "Well ACTUALLY Kyler isn't a RUNNING QB like that" while insisting that he's going to run, like, a lot. So, I don't know. I think that Murray is going to run a lot the first few years he's in the league, and as he becomes a more successful passer, he'll run less.

I would be more concerned about Rosen. He had a few injuries in college, one that nearly wiped out a season, and two concussions.

Murray? Never heard a peep about any injuries.

Why are you still talking about Josh Rosen? He's gone, dude. Get over it. Compare Murray to the rest of the league.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I know what each of these words mean, but in this sequence it doesn't mean much. The reality is that there isn't any sample size to say anything about a quarterback of Murray's dimensions and injury.

We do have a bigger knowledge base about RUNNING QBS, but I haven't found good research newer than this, which is now old: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/mobile-quarterbacks-and-injury-risk

You end up having people like Krang and other say, "Well ACTUALLY Kyler isn't a RUNNING QB like that" while insisting that he's going to run, like, a lot. So, I don't know. I think that Murray is going to run a lot the first few years he's in the league, and as he becomes a more successful passer, he'll run less.



Why are you still talking about Josh Rosen? He's gone, dude. Get over it. Compare Murray to the rest of the league.

I think your point is true about Murray and running. The reason he isnt called a running QB, is because the connotation of a running QB is one or two reads and then go, whereas Murray isnt that type of player.

Why mention Rosen? Because I heard nery a peep out of this board about Rosens injury history but the same crowd goes crazy about the Murray injury risk.

Pocket QBs get hurt ALOT. I think standing in the pocket and taking the big hit is one of the highest injury producing plays in football. Running with the football, at least a player is more aware of the hits coming.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I think your point is true about Murray and running. The reason he isnt called a running QB, is because the connotation of a running QB is one or two reads and then go, whereas Murray isnt that type of player.

Why mention Rosen? Because I heard nery a peep out of this board about Rosens injury history but the same crowd goes crazy about the Murray injury risk.

Pocket QBs get hurt ALOT. I think standing in the pocket and taking the big hit is one of the highest injury producing plays in football. Running with the football, at least a player is more aware of the hits coming.

The higher risk is probably because a pocket QB has that foot planted a majority of times when taking a hit, it's not a fluid situation for the leg. As far being aware, I think Chris Simms had the worst pocket awareness of any QB I have seen play but injuries are not what got him out of the league but his lack of instincts... this is at least something Murray has

 

[kerouac9]

I think your point is true about Murray and running. The reason he isnt called a running QB, is because the connotation of a running QB is one or two reads and then go, whereas Murray isnt that type of player.

Why mention Rosen? Because I heard nery a peep out of this board about Rosens injury history but the same crowd goes crazy about the Murray injury risk.

Pocket QBs get hurt ALOT. I think standing in the pocket and taking the big hit is one of the highest injury producing plays in football. Running with the football, at least a player is more aware of the hits coming.

Some pocket QBs get hurt a lot, some running QBs get hurt a lot. It seems anecdotally that running QBs suffer injury earlier and more often than pocket QBs. It’s easy to point to pocket QBs who get injured because there are more pocket QBs, and on balance the more mobile QBs are younger.

 

[football karma]

I think that Michael Bidwill's desire to have ever-more visibility is going to become an obstacle to recruiting the best people.

i dont know if Mike B has above league average visibility or "hands on-ness", but i do know that the Bidwill gene is to promote from within for positions like this

maybe said another way -- it seems the Bidwills want to know someone for a few years (at least) before putting them in a high power position like GM.

they have done the Adrian Wilson thing before with Larry Wilson

 

[Solar7]

The height of a player does not exactly equate to injury but how they fill out and their position. It's very possible that Murray is the least likely player at his position to get hurt if one accounts for his history from high school to college

Dude, it has nothing to do with his height, besides a huge dimension of his game being the fact he moves around and has the threat to take off and run. But... account for his history? What, is Kyler gonna play 15 games over three years for us because he doesn't even play? Because that's what happened in his college career. You're talking about 12 games or whatever behind one of the best lines in football. Don't even go there with his history, because it barely exists. It's like saying I'm never going to throw an interception in the NFL because I didn't in college. Let's ignore the fact I didn't play college football.

I would be more concerned about Rosen. He had a few injuries in college, one that nearly wiped out a season, and two concussions.

Murray? Never heard a peep about any injuries.

Like was already said, I don't know why you're bringing up Rosen. He's gone.

I think your point is true about Murray and running. The reason he isnt called a running QB, is because the connotation of a running QB is one or two reads and then go, whereas Murray isnt that type of player.

Why mention Rosen? Because I heard nery a peep out of this board about Rosens injury history but the same crowd goes crazy about the Murray injury risk.

Pocket QBs get hurt ALOT. I think standing in the pocket and taking the big hit is one of the highest injury producing plays in football. Running with the football, at least a player is more aware of the hits coming.

When a strictly pocket QB gets hit and gets a high ankle sprain, well, no big deal, because the guy can still shift around in the pocket and do exactly what the offense is designed to do. When a guy whose mobility is a huge part of his game is hit, suffers an injury, and loses that speed, not only do you lose half or a third of the playbook that let him do those things, you are now stuck with a strictly pocket passer. And pardon me if I'm not exactly jumping up and down with excitement over some 5'10 kid trying to play in the pocket and win us games.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Dude, it has nothing to do with his height, besides a huge dimension of his game being the fact he moves around and has the threat to take off and run. But... account for his history? What, is Kyler gonna play 15 games over three years for us because he doesn't even play? Because that's what happened in his college career. You're talking about 12 games or whatever behind one of the best lines in football. Don't even go there with his history, because it barely exists. It's like saying I'm never going to throw an interception in the NFL because I didn't in college. Let's ignore the fact I didn't play college football.


Like was already said, I don't know why you're bringing up Rosen. He's gone.


When a strictly pocket QB gets hit and gets a high ankle sprain, well, no big deal, because the guy can still shift around in the pocket and do exactly what the offense is designed to do. When a guy whose mobility is a huge part of his game is hit, suffers an injury, and loses that speed, not only do you lose half or a third of the playbook that let him do those things, you are now stuck with a strictly pocket passer. And pardon me if I'm not exactly jumping up and down with excitement over some 5'10 kid trying to play in the pocket and win us games.

Murray isnt just a runner. If we were talking about Jackson, then that would be a concern.

Murray is much more than a runner.

 

[PACardsFan]

Murray isnt just a runner. If we were talking about Jackson, then that would be a concern.

Murray is much more than a runner.

It's hard to believe that we're still trying to convince people on this board that K1 shouldn't be pigeonholed as a running QB. I think it's also a waste of time to continue debating ad nauseum his chances of getting injured. This is football, and every QB that walks on the field is at risk. Outside of his freaky athleticism, what has continuously impressed me about Murray, is both his ability & DESIRE to avoid unnecessary contact. The "desire" portion of that sentence is important. For a young kid, he seems to really know what "he" is. He knows his strengths & he knows what he needs to avoid. That's not to say that he can completely avoid injury, but using his athleticism in this manner will help.

 

[Solar7]

Murray isnt just a runner. If we were talking about Jackson, then that would be a concern.

Murray is much more than a runner.

It's hard to believe that we're still trying to convince people on this board that K1 shouldn't be pigeonholed as a running QB. I think it's also a waste of time to continue debating ad nauseum his chances of getting injured. This is football, and every QB that walks on the field is at risk. Outside of his freaky athleticism, what has continuously impressed me about Murray, is both his ability & DESIRE to avoid unnecessary contact. The "desire" portion of that sentence is important. For a young kid, he seems to really know what "he" is. He knows his strengths & he knows what he needs to avoid. That's not to say that he can completely avoid injury, but using his athleticism in this manner will help.

I'm not even claiming he's a pure runner. Like, we can stop that when it comes to me. But running is a big element of his game, and a big reason he put up the numbers to be the number one overall pick.

For you guys to act like Kyler's not going to have any plays that are RPOs, designed runs, or the need to scramble, but then say in other threads that he's going to have 500+ yards rushing and mask the inadequacies of the line by escaping pressure is ridiculous. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You don't rush for 1,000 yards in college and get called "not a runner." He can be both, but he's surely still a runner, and if that gets taken away by injury, I'm still scared of what he looks like as a pure pocket passer.

 

[PACardsFan]

I'm not even claiming he's a pure runner. Like, we can stop that when it comes to me. But running is a big element of his game, and a big reason he put up the numbers to be the number one overall pick.

For you guys to act like Kyler's not going to have any plays that are RPOs, designed runs, or the need to scramble, but then say in other threads that he's going to have 500+ yards rushing and mask the inadequacies of the line by escaping pressure is ridiculous. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You don't rush for 1,000 yards in college and get called "not a runner." He can be both, but he's surely still a runner, and if that gets taken away by injury, I'm still scared of what he looks like as a pure pocket passer.

First of all, my comments were not designed towards you in particular. Murray can throw the ball BETTER than most, Murray can run the ball BETTER than most, and Murray can buy time & avoid hits BETTER than most. It's that entire package of skill sets that make him special. I don't believe any past, or present NFL QB has ever had that entire set of skills. You have to go back to Fran Tarkenton to even come close. And Tarkenton didn't nearly have the arm strength that Murray has. Let's not forget that when he retired, Tarkenton held ever single QB record.

 

[Krangodnzr]

First of all, my comments were not designed towards you in particular. Murray can throw the ball BETTER than most, Murray can run the ball BETTER than most, and Murray can buy time & avoid hits BETTER than most. It's that entire package of skill sets that make him special. I don't believe any past, or present NFL QB has ever had that entire set of skills. You have to go back to Fran Tarkenton to even come close. And Tarkenton didn't nearly have the arm strength that Murray has. Let's not forget that when he retired, Tarkenton held ever single QB record.

Yep this is what I'm saying.

@Solar7 has this habit of mischaracterizing arguments. I'm saying is game isnt solely dependent on running. He can throw the ball with the best of them, which is why he was the #1 pick even though he is short.

 

[Cardsmasochist]

I think Keim has some good qualities, which is why the team has had some sustained success under his tenure.

Excellent at IDing pass rushers, safeties, run defenders. Keim time signings have been good for the most part. Horrible at finding OL and TEs.

Good points about Keim's strength identifying talent at certain positions. He played LG in college yet he has had some really bad draft and free agent OL moves since he became the GM. It's so frustrating.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Good points about Keim's strength identifying talent at certain positions. He played LG in college yet he has had some really bad draft and free agent OL moves since he became the GM. It's so frustrating.

Have to wonder if some of that was past coaches IDing OL they liked and they weren't good?

Position coaches do get some say on players based on scouts info.

 

[Solar7]

Yep this is what I'm saying.

@Solar7 has this habit of mischaracterizing arguments. I'm saying is game isnt solely dependent on running. He can throw the ball with the best of them, which is why he was the #1 pick even though he is short.

I'm not mischaracterizing your argument, but whenever someone says "he's going to get hurt on the run," you say "he's not a running quarterback."

Like, the guy is going to be on the run more than most. That's why he's a running quarterback. He is going to be on the field in positions where the rules protect him less than they do a normal, pocket QB.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Dude, it has nothing to do with his height, besides a huge dimension of his game being the fact he moves around and has the threat to take off and run. But... account for his history? What, is Kyler gonna play 15 games over three years for us because he doesn't even play? Because that's what happened in his college career. You're talking about 12 games or whatever behind one of the best lines in football. Don't even go there with his history, because it barely exists. It's like saying I'm never going to throw an interception in the NFL because I didn't in college. Let's ignore the fact I didn't play college football.


Like was already said, I don't know why you're bringing up Rosen. He's gone.


When a strictly pocket QB gets hit and gets a high ankle sprain, well, no big deal, because the guy can still shift around in the pocket and do exactly what the offense is designed to do. When a guy whose mobility is a huge part of his game is hit, suffers an injury, and loses that speed, not only do you lose half or a third of the playbook that let him do those things, you are now stuck with a strictly pocket passer. And pardon me if I'm not exactly jumping up and down with excitement over some 5'10 kid trying to play in the pocket and win us games.

I made no comment which required your completely out of place sophism of you never playing college ball or throwing a football to make a highly remote and ludicrous analogy towards anything doing with Kyler Murray and you. Yes, I will ignore the fact of you never playing college football, just as not playing at the highest level of high school competition maybe in the country or winning the Heisman, or even if you never been injured taking a walk down the street because you just extended any relevant critique into the realm of the obscure to keep all us fans in check for something which did not go your way... by the way, I was happy with Rosen, but I can see the other side which did not go my way while I am still taller than the guy

 

[Yuma]

Kyler Murray is or is not a running QB. I really don't care. Whatever his style, I want him to be efficient and effective.

 

[Solar7]

I made no comment which required your completely out of place sophism of you never playing college ball or throwing a football to make a highly remote and ludicrous analogy towards anything doing with Kyler Murray and you. Yes, I will ignore the fact of you never playing college football, just as not playing at the highest level of high school competition maybe in the country or winning the Heisman, or even if you never been injured taking a walk down the street because you just extended any relevant critique into the realm of the obscure to keep all us fans in check for something which did not go your way... by the way, I was happy with Rosen, but I can see the other side which did not go my way while I am still taller than the guy

Jet, I don't want to piss you off. I like you. We'll probably have a few more bumps until real snaps are played, but sorry.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Jet, I don't want to piss you off. I like you. We'll probably have a few more bumps until real snaps are played, but sorry.

You know the guy I am not as positive about, Byron Murphy. I'm not saying he is not a talented player who deserves to play but I see him mostly as a slot guy. Here for me is where the idea of injury comes more into play than Murray. Murphy will hit and is not afraid to be physical but is under 180 pounds removed from his height and is not a burner. DRC was under weight but could fly and had height... but I am not going to rain on the parade of everyone who is pumped about him and they might be right

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

First of all, my comments were not designed towards you in particular. Murray can throw the ball BETTER than most, Murray can run the ball BETTER than most, and Murray can buy time & avoid hits BETTER than most. It's that entire package of skill sets that make him special. I don't believe any past, or present NFL QB has ever had that entire set of skills. You have to go back to Fran Tarkenton to even come close. And Tarkenton didn't nearly have the arm strength that Murray has. Let's not forget that when he retired, Tarkenton held ever single QB record.

You can say all of that about Wilson as well. Though on paper at least, Murray is as good or better than Wilson in all 3 of those areas.

 

[slanidrac16]

I made no comment which required your completely out of place sophism of you never playing college ball or throwing a football to make a highly remote and ludicrous analogy towards anything doing with Kyler Murray and you. Yes, I will ignore the fact of you never playing college football, just as not playing at the highest level of high school competition maybe in the country or winning the Heisman, or even if you never been injured taking a walk down the street because you just extended any relevant critique into the realm of the obscure to keep all us fans in check for something which did not go your way... by the way, I was happy with Rosen, but I can see the other side which did not go my way while I am still taller than the guy [/QUOTE

I like it.... but, huh? Lol!

 

[Solar7]

You know the guy I am not as positive about, Byron Murphy. I'm not saying he is not a talented player who deserves to play but I see him mostly as a slot guy. Here for me is where the idea of injury comes more into play than Murray. Murphy will hit and is not afraid to be physical but is under 180 pounds removed from his height and is not a burner. DRC was under weight but could fly and had height... but I am not going to rain on the parade of everyone who is pumped about him and they might be right

We didn't sell the farm or our future for Byron Murphy though. There's also more than one starting corner on this team. If Murphy comes out and sucks this year, we'll simply move on and another guy on the roster will get a chance.

If Murray's bad, it affects every single game and makes them nearly unwinnable. And we're pretty much stuck with him, preventing us from getting Tua or Lawrence if we remain a bad team for 1-2 years.

 

[HGC]

We didn't sell the farm or our future for Byron Murphy though. There's also more than one starting corner on this team. If Murphy comes out and sucks this year, we'll simply move on and another guy on the roster will get a chance.

If Murray's bad, it affects every single game and makes them nearly unwinnable. And we're pretty much stuck with him, preventing us from getting Tua or Lawrence if we remain a bad team for 1-2 years.

If Murray’s bad it increases the chance of getting Lawrence in 2 years if he declares.

 

[Solar7]

If Murray’s bad it increases the chance of getting Lawrence in 2 years if he declares.

I guess. I still can't see us, and KK, moving on from him that quickly.

My biggest issue here is that I unfortunately think Kyler is going to be just good enough to make us sit around and argue about keeping him for most of his career.

I've said it multiple times, I think he ends up like Marcus Mariota - a guy who will sometimes flash, a guy who will win you some games, but a guy at the end of 5 years we're saying "man, should we really pay the guy this much money? Is he ever gonna take us there?"

I think by season 2 with KM and KK we're in that 8-8, 9-7 territory, good enough to maybe compete for a wildcard but not take the next step. But the real kicker is that I think this season, we win 4 games.