Kings vs Suns SL Game Thread 7/7/18

[sunsfan88]

I've felt all along that people have put Ayton on too high of a pedestal here. And I don't believe that he impacts the game quite as positively as his stats would suggest. But there's a world of potential there and a guy that can get you close to 20 and 10 while still too raw to greatly impact the game is worth waiting on. He's going to become a very valuable part of this team even if he only improves as much as Alex Len did.

I think his impact actually goes beyond his stats. He draws a lot of attention from the opposing defenses which has led to open looks for the shooters thus far. He looks to be a gravitational player on top of already bringing the #s that he does.

 

[Chaplin]

I think his impact actually goes beyond his stats. He draws a lot of attention from the opposing defenses which has led to open looks for the shooters thus far. He looks to be a gravitational player on top of already bringing the #s that he does.

And he's double-teamed the entire game. That definitely makes an impact.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think his impact actually goes beyond his stats. He draws a lot of attention from the opposing defenses which has led to open looks for the shooters thus far. He looks to be a gravitational player on top of already bringing the #s that he does.

It really didn't go that way in college but with better point guard play and NBA spacing, he should cause problems for most teams.

 

[sunsfan88]

And he's double-teamed the entire game. That definitely makes an impact.

Yeah and he’s made the right pass out of those doubles teams most of the time as well. People are going to see what they want to see but I do think we should enjoy what looks to be by far the best C in franchise history.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Yeah and he’s made the right pass out of those doubles teams most of the time as well. People are going to see what they want to see but I do think we should enjoy what looks to be by far the best C in franchise history.

Absolutely. This is what we have seen so far from Ayton.

Postives:

1. Physicality and the ability to bully through and score on anyone one-on-one. I am sure there is someone in the league who can cover him one-on-one, maybe Embiid, but most teams do not have a player who can do that. Scoring 60-70% in the post is an efficient way to run an offense.
2. Good hands. He seems to catch everything. No fumbling at all.
3. Natural rebounder, gets double digit boards just being there and without blocking out very effectively. His long arms, leaping ability, and bulk help, but he also has a natural nose for where the ball will come off. The best rebounders in NBA history rebounded like this (Barkley, Rodman).
4. Willing passer and makes the right pass out of the double-team (as you said SF88). That is huge.
5. Better than advertised defense. He makes a difference just standing there. There is an intimidation factor.
6. Very effective and consistent 15 footer. It looks effortless and you just expect it to go in.

Needs for improvement:

1. Physical conditioning. He seems to get gassed a lot. We might end up running more of a half-court offense with Ayton as a feature.
2. Blocking out. He needs to do this better, but I have seen some players block out, only to lose rebounds because they are more focused on the defender than the ball. Still, fundamentals here.
3. Better screens. The guards need to do better, but he rolls away from the screen too quickly and doesn't set screens as aggressively as he could. Brandon Knight will help with this. He has many flaws in his game but BK is excellent at using screens.
4. Better defensive awareness. He seems to get lost on D some. More to learn here.
5. Sealing off his defender so he can get the entry pass. Ayton has spent an AAU, and high school career just out-leaping his defender to get the entry pass. He will have to develop a few more skills to be as effective on this level.

 

[Chaplin]

Needs for improvement:

1. Physical conditioning. He seems to get gassed a lot. We might end up running more of a half-court offense with Ayton as a feature.
2. Blocking out. He needs to do this better, but I have seen some players block out, only to lose rebounds because they are more focused on the defender than the ball. Still, fundamentals here.
3. Better screens. The guards need to do better, but he rolls away from the screen too quickly and doesn't set screens as aggressively as he could. Brandon Knight will help with this. He has many flaws in his game but BK is excellent at using screens.
4. Better defensive awareness. He seems to get lost on D some. More to learn here.
5. Sealing off his defender so he can get the entry pass. Ayton has spent an AAU, and high school career just out-leaping his defender to get the entry pass. He will have to develop a few more skills to be as effective on this level.

#4 is going to be the toughest for him, but the rest of those are infinitely teachable right away.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah, I choose to see the positives when possible too. But, each to their own.

Why wouldn’t you see both? I don’t understand optimists refusing to acknowledge the negatives and take a realistic view of their team. And then to call out those not like them as “not real fans.” That’s the best.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah and he’s made the right pass out of those doubles teams most of the time as well. People are going to see what they want to see but I do think we should enjoy what looks to be by far the best C in franchise history.

He’s made good passes out of the double but not yet “great” passes. He’s not yet finding the optimal outlet that’s the most wide open guy yet. When he does he’ll become unstoppable. He’ll also start racking up assists. I feel confident that he will because he sees the court well and passes out easily.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Why wouldn’t you see both? I don’t understand optimists refusing to acknowledge the negatives and take a realistic view of their team. And then to call out those not like them as “not real fans.” That’s the best.

I see the negatives too. But when faced with something that could easily go either way, I choose to view it favorably. I don't close my eyes to the negative and I don't see everything through rose colored glasses. I just choose that side when there's reasonable doubt. And I certainly didn't intend to call anyone out (I didn't think I had).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Aah for the good old days, when homeristic was just another way to describe the typical fan.

You don’t think this is kinda calling out those who aren’t homers as not being a typical fan?

This obviously isn’t as bad as some of the “you’re not a real fan” or “go root for someone else” crap we see, but with those types of posts not infrequent I could see this being interpreted that way.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You don’t think this is kinda calling out those who aren’t homers as not being a typical fan?

This obviously isn’t as bad as some of the “you’re not a real fan” or “go root for someone else” crap we see, but with those types of posts not infrequent I could see this being interpreted that way.

Actually I was thinking of my second post in this conversation, I'd forgotten about this one. Yes, I can see some fans taking this personally but I had no agenda. Growing up when and where I did, fans were pretty much always positive, always hopeful. I've long since come to realize that there is more than one way to be a fan but I won't apologize for preferring it the way it used to be.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Absolutely. This is what we have seen so far from Ayton.

Postives:

1. Physicality and the ability to bully through and score on anyone one-on-one. I am sure there is someone in the league who can cover him one-on-one, maybe Embiid, but most teams do not have a player who can do that. Scoring 60-70% in the post is an efficient way to run an offense.
2. Good hands. He seems to catch everything. No fumbling at all.
3. Natural rebounder, gets double digit boards just being there and without blocking out very effectively. His long arms, leaping ability, and bulk help, but he also has a natural nose for where the ball will come off. The best rebounders in NBA history rebounded like this (Barkley, Rodman).
4. Willing passer and makes the right pass out of the double-team (as you said SF88). That is huge.
5. Better than advertised defense. He makes a difference just standing there. There is an intimidation factor.
6. Very effective and consistent 15 footer. It looks effortless and you just expect it to go in.

Needs for improvement:

1. Physical conditioning. He seems to get gassed a lot. We might end up running more of a half-court offense with Ayton as a feature.
2. Blocking out. He needs to do this better, but I have seen some players block out, only to lose rebounds because they are more focused on the defender than the ball. Still, fundamentals here.
3. Better screens. The guards need to do better, but he rolls away from the screen too quickly and doesn't set screens as aggressively as he could. Brandon Knight will help with this. He has many flaws in his game but BK is excellent at using screens.
4. Better defensive awareness. He seems to get lost on D some. More to learn here.
5. Sealing off his defender so he can get the entry pass. Ayton has spent an AAU, and high school career just out-leaping his defender to get the entry pass. He will have to develop a few more skills to be as effective on this level.

One more thing I'll add to the 'Needs for improvement' list is he has on several occasions brought the ball down low where the ball gets swiped at. He's gotta learn to keep it up high, especially during those plays where the defense just collapses down on him.

 

[Chaplin]

One more thing I'll add to the 'Needs for improvement' list is he has on several occasions brought the ball down low where the ball gets swiped at. He's gotta learn to keep it up high, especially during those plays where the defense just collapses down on him.

Yeah the announcers in at least one game mentioned that also.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Actually I was thinking of my second post in this conversation, I'd forgotten about this one. Yes, I can see some fans taking this personally but I had no agenda. Growing up when and where I did, fans were pretty much always positive, always hopeful. I've long since come to realize that there is more than one way to be a fan but I won't apologize for preferring it the way it used to be.

Oh I have no problem with the preference. You grew up with much difference sport influences. My father, who is perhaps the most mild mannered intellectual human being you’ll ever encounter, used to lose his mind watching sports. And not in a good way. I love the man to death but he’s always had a prevailing negative view on life. Likely from losing his beloved father in his teens and watching his mother toil at three jobs at a time putting he and my uncle through college and medical school. He recently gave the most morbid (but entertaining) speech at his and my mothers 50th anniversary party. For those that knew him well it wasn’t a surprise, for those that didn’t know him deeply I think they were somewhat shell-shocked. He’s the happiest negative person in the universe and he was the primary sports influencer on cheese and me. So that explains a lot.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

One more thing I'll add to the 'Needs for improvement' list is he has on several occasions brought the ball down low where the ball gets swiped at. He's gotta learn to keep it up high, especially during those plays where the defense just collapses down on him.

Yes good point. His turnovers are mounting. But this is all good learning experiences for him. I’m sure he’ll get it.

 

[BC867]

One more thing I'll add to the 'Needs for improvement' list is he has on several occasions brought the ball down low where the ball gets swiped at. He's gotta learn to keep it up high, especially during those plays where the defense just collapses down on him.

It was frustrating that Andrew Lang never learned that. He always held the ball down by his knees after a rebound and little Guards swiped it away.

But the Suns in his day were not big on Big Man coaches. I expect that Ayton has the intelligence and proper attitude to work on this and whatever other problems surface as he gains experience.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It was frustrating that Andrew Lang never learned that. He always held the ball down by his knees after a rebound and little Guards swiped it away.

But the Suns in his day were not big on Big Man coaches. I expect that Ayton has the intelligence and proper attitude to work on this and whatever other problems surface as he gains experience.

This has always bugged me a bit. Players have the ball swiped away all the time holding the ball high too. Guards can reach it high as well as low. Players have to be conscious of where they hold it and typically need to get it in close to their body in high traffic, like a running back going through the line.

Now, if it's an offensive rebound, absolutely. Bringing it down and then going up again takes more time and gives much more opportunity for it to be swiped away.

 

[slinslin]

don't understand how everybody here watched that first game and now the beginning of this one not one negative thing about Ayton. I think we drafted the Marquis Chriss of centers without the god-awful body language with the #1 pick.

I couldn't take it. I'm so frustrated. I at least thought judging by his numbers he would be able to rebound decently. That might be what I'm most frustrated with here. He doesn't even get pushed under the basket every time. He just walks himself there. He looks clueless.

I wonder what they could have gotten for that draft pick. It would have taken a giant giant pair to pass on him. Perhaps after all the research they've done on himthey feel like he can really be coached up to reach his potential. that's supposed to be one of the strengths of this coaching staff and I know people are really high on them. The 2 guys I like most were Bamba and JJ Jr.. I love Bamba. That said Ayton has very little basketball training and if they can get into that physical potential BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT holy moly.

Trying to walk myself off the ledge right now. I'm mostly just disappointed that he's so raw. He looks just lost to me. Offense I'm not worried about it all. I mean he's totally lost there as well , butI definitely think with a decent veteran PG (not BK) our offense will be really good. I am only focusing on his defense and rebounding. Okay, I guess what I'm saying is that even though I was fine with him at #1 and very excited I thought he would be much better if they took him there.

Well so far in this game I'm even more concerned then after the first.

Jesus Christ