Kirilenko--"I want to leave the Utah Jazz"

[fordronken]

Trade proposal

Suns Trade:
Shawn Marion
Marcus Banks
Eric Piatkowski

Jazz Trade:
Andrei Kirilenko
Ronnie Brewer
Gordon Giricek
Cash
Protected first round pick

Cleveland Trades:
Drew Gooden

Phoenix Receives:
Andrei Kirilenko
Drew Gooden
Cash

Utah Receives:
Shawn Marion
Marcus Banks
Eric Piatkowski

Cleveland Receives
Gordon Giricek
Ronnie Brewer
Protected 1st round pick

Why this trade works
The Cavs have been trying to get rid of Gooden so that they could re-sign Varejao. This way, they get a big expiring contract, a young prospect and a first round pick. About as much as you can ask for.

The Jazz need to get rid of Kirilenko, so they may have to toss in a prospect, some cash and a pick to get it done, as well as taking back a contract they don't really want in Banks. But they save money over the long haul on this trade, which frees up cash for Deron Williams. They also get the best player in the trade, hands down.

The Suns get a real big guy, the closest possible replacement for Marion, dump a contract, get some cash, and essentially trade 1 rotation player for 2.

Now you sign Potapenko and Kleiza, which gives you the following roster:

1. Steve Nash
2. Raja Bell
3. Grant Hill
4. Andrei Kirilenko
5. Amare Stoudemire
6. Leandro Barbosa
7. Boris Diaw
8. Drew Gooden
9. Alando Tucker
10. DJ Strawberry
11. Linus Kleiza
12. Sean Marks
13. Vitaly Potapenko

 

[Goldfield]

AK would be good here. But he is injury prone. Hard to help our team when he is hurt. I am on the fence with this trade.

Now if it was for Boris & Banks that would be sweet.

 

[slinslin]

Any trade involving the Suns losing Marion and replacing him w/ AK is a bad trade. AK's contract is a much worse than Marions, and can't nearly match Marions production. :
.

He can easily match Marions production when healthy and playing at the 4.

Defense is about equal, scoring may be a bit in Marions favor, passing clearly in Kirilenkos favor.

Marion is a 20/10/2/2/2 threat
Kirilenko can put up 16/8/5/2/3

We gain some length too.

Kirilenko is terrible! A shell of his former self. ALWAYS injured, too.

That is because in Utah he is forced to play a true SF role with Boozer and Okur now. He is much more suited to play the 4 which would be exactly what the Suns would want from him.

Also AK's current contract is probably exactly what the Suns would be willing to extend Marion for but not what Marion demands.

 

[Joe Mama]

First, I don't have much respect for players who demand or ask to be traded. No one forced him to sign with the Jazz. And now if Jazz are unable to move him, this is only going to create disruptions for them. You don't burn bridges before you cross them.

Second, I am still very much opposed to the idea of moving Marion for AK. If anyone thinks that Marion is overpaid given his production level, think how much worse AK's contract is going to look. He is due to make max money for the next four seasons. And AK has not been anywhere near as consistent as Shawn.

Well, Tim Thomas didn't either. Or Michael Finley. Or John Salmons. I'm sure there are others. And I wouldn't necessarily say he doesn't want to play here. At least he never officially stated that.

I couldn't agree more. Thirst no way I would trade Shawn Marion for AK. The latter is ALWAYS injured. Shawn Marion has always been a workhorse. I'd rather listen to Shawn Marion complain about his role on the team than watch him play well for Utah while AK sits on the Phoenix Suns bench injured.

Joe Mama

 

[slinslin]

Kirilenko makes the same $$$ as Marion just that his contract is in an earlier stage right now.
You have to consider that the Suns would probably rather take Kirilenko for 4 yrs/60M$ than Marion for 1yrs/17M$+3yrs/60M$ which he demands as an extension.

Injuries are definately a concern, talent definately isnt. Kirilenko at his best is better than Marion at his best. If he didn't have 2 poor seasons at the 3 next to Boozer and Okur there would probably be no chance of him being traded.

Marion, Banks, Piatkowski for Kirlenko, Brewer and Collins, I think I would have to do it despite injury concerns. And it would save us 4M$ which we could partially use to increase our offer for PJ Brown.

Amare/Diaw/Brown/Collins/Marks
Kirilenko/Diaw
Hill/Brewer/Tucker
Bell/Barbosa/Brewer/Tucker/Strawberry
Nash/Barbosa/Strawberry

That is a much more well rounded roster than what we have right now

 

[fordronken]

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-28-61/Speak-Russian--Neither-Does-Jerry-Sloan.html

 

[Louis]

Do the Suns have a trade exception that can be used towards a trade if the money doesn't quite matchup?

 

[elindholm]

I like the proposal, fordronken. I'd have to say that Phoenix is probably the team that blinks first there, but I would consider it worth doing.

Slinslin is correct that Kirilenko's ceiling is higher than Marion's. Has Marion ever dominated a playoff or championship game against elite competition, the way that Kirilenko just did? No.

Kirilenko's injury history is a huge concern, but since I personally don't think the current Suns have a chance this year, I'd take the risk.

 

[elindholm]

Do the Suns have a trade exception that can be used towards a trade if the money doesn't quite matchup?

The short answer is No, but...

If there are a lot of players involved, it could be possible to do the trade as "technically" two different trades, with one of the players coming over fitting into the exception. So, if the trade is complicated enough, then yes, most likely there's a way to bring the exceptions into play.

However, any trade involving the use of an exception would be one in which the Suns add salary, which Sarver is loath to do. So the real answer is No after all...

 

[nashman]

Bad idea AK is not the answer! Keep Marion and make a run this year and maybe next as I don't think he is opting out of what like 17-18 mil. We essentially could get 2 of Marions best years as he may be playing for a contract somewhere else! If we can get a title we could let him walk and save plenty of cap room, if after this season we are not close or reigning champions then and only then should possible marion trades be discussed. Right now is not the time for this and especially for a always injured AK. Ask yourself where would we be if Marion was always injured like AK, we wouldn't have been the team we were the past few seasons for sure!

 

[HooverDam]

He can easily match Marions production when healthy and playing at the 4.

And I can cure cancer when I'm a lot smarter than I actually am and have years of medical training.

 

[fordronken]

I like the proposal, fordronken. I'd have to say that Phoenix is probably the team that blinks first there, but I would consider it worth doing.

Slinslin is correct that Kirilenko's ceiling is higher than Marion's. Has Marion ever dominated a playoff or championship game against elite competition, the way that Kirilenko just did? No.

Kirilenko's injury history is a huge concern, but since I personally don't think the current Suns have a chance this year, I'd take the risk.

The funny thing with that proposal is, suddenly frontcourt depth isn't a problem, but backcourt and wing depth could be if Tucker and/or Strawberry can't step in during the season if an injury occurs.

It would also mean that we would have 4 players who would, at least theoretically, be able to make a D'Antoni rotation, but are all players he would hate to have to play at the small forward spot. How would the minutes be allocated for Stoudemire, Kirilenko, Diaw and Gooden? Would Diaw or Kirilenko have to spend some time at the 3 spot?

We also still have a gaping hole at back up point guard. I'm not going to buy the "between Diaw, Kirilenko, Hill and Barbosa, we have enough passing while Nash is out" argument. Two point forwards and a combo guard don't make up for not having a real back up point guard.

 

[TucsonDevil]

Kirilenko for Bryant?

The Lakers would probably have to include Smush Parker to make that trade even.

 

[elindholm]

The funny thing with that proposal is, suddenly frontcourt depth isn't a problem, but backcourt and wing depth could be if Tucker and/or Strawberry can't step in during the season if an injury occurs.

Two words: Allan Houston. (I'm joking, sort of.)

It would also mean that we would have 4 players who would, at least theoretically, be able to make a D'Antoni rotation, but are all players he would hate to have to play at the small forward spot.

My guess is that Bell would be the backup 3, pretty much the way he is now.

How would the minutes be allocated for Stoudemire, Kirilenko, Diaw and Gooden? Would Diaw or Kirilenko have to spend some time at the 3 spot?

Probably Kirilenko would get some time at the 3 when Stoudemire is sitting, i.e. Diaw is the "center" on offense (thus Diaw/Gooden/Kirilenko) and then there's a scramble on defense. I agree that there could be a minutes crunch, but most likely either Diaw or Gooden will prove himself unworthy of much floor time anyway. Basically each becomes a sort of insurance policy for the other (even though they are not similar players).

We also still have a gaping hole at back up point guard. I'm not going to buy the "between Diaw, Kirilenko, Hill and Barbosa, we have enough passing while Nash is out" argument.

I agree; I don't buy it either. But the Suns have two major rotation deficiencies, and this could potentially address one of them. It's a step in the right direction.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Additionally, I dont think AK will mind playing the 3 here as much as playing the 3 in Utah. Its a whole different animal and I think it would be more in tune to his play. Hell, if Dantoni gets fiesty enough, we may see AK at the 5 in some games.

 

[playstation]

this AK for Diaw,Banks, filler proposal is interesting if utah really feels pushed.

we don't NEED to trade anyone, they're the one's that are under the gun here. if they're stupid enough to take that, we should push for it.

the extra money wouldn't even matter. its a question of value at that point. if you can get a pound of gold in exchange for a pound of bronze, you do it, and ask questions later.

and don't say it hasn't happened before. tmac for franchise anyone? or shaq for odom? ai for andre miller? VC for crap? when guys want out, their value PLUMMETS.

i've NEVER seen a team trade a guy that wanted out and get better IMMEDIATELY because of it. if they got marion for AK, that is exactly what would happen.

 

[Mainstreet]

Probably Kirilenko would get some time at the 3 when Stoudemire is sitting, i.e. Diaw is the "center" on offense (thus Diaw/Gooden/Kirilenko) and then there's a scramble on defense. I agree that there could be a minutes crunch, but most likely either Diaw or Gooden will prove himself unworthy of much floor time anyway. Basically each becomes a sort of insurance policy for the other (even though they are not similar players).

I like Fordronken's trade idea if it were possible. I also like your thoughts about insurance as one of these players will probably not live up to form, but this creates some legitimate competition on the front line. I like the idea the Suns would have a solid backup in Gooden or Diaw. A strong front line can cure a lot of woes and good shots from the outside by Raja, LB and Nash. Perhaps even Tucker can find his stroke with open looks.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Kirilenko makes the same $$$ as Marion just that his contract is in an earlier stage right now.
You have to consider that the Suns would probably rather take Kirilenko for 4 yrs/60M$ than Marion for 1yrs/17M$+3yrs/60M$ which he demands as an extension.

Injuries are definately a concern, talent definately isnt. Kirilenko at his best is better than Marion at his best. If he didn't have 2 poor seasons at the 3 next to Boozer and Okur there would probably be no chance of him being traded.

Marion, Banks, Piatkowski for Kirlenko, Brewer and Collins, I think I would have to do it despite injury concerns. And it would save us 4M$ which we could partially use to increase our offer for PJ Brown.

Amare/Diaw/Brown/Collins/Marks
Kirilenko/Diaw
Hill/Brewer/Tucker
Bell/Barbosa/Brewer/Tucker/Strawberry
Nash/Barbosa/Strawberry

That is a much more well rounded roster than what we have right now

Kirilenko's best PER is Marion's worst PER. Kirilenko isn't anywhere near the player Marion is and every Jazz fan will tell you that.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Slinslin is correct that Kirilenko's ceiling is higher than Marion's. Has Marion ever dominated a playoff or championship game against elite competition, the way that Kirilenko just did? No.

Yes he has. Go look at his playoff numbers.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Kirilenko's playoff stats:

9.6 PPG 5.2 RPG 2.0 APG EFF: +13 and he freaking CRIED on camera.

Kirilenko's "dominating playoff series that Marion will never approach" are laughable:

16.2 PPG 8.8 RPG 3.4 APG

Kirilenko's CAREER playoff average? 9.9 PPG 44% shooting 5.2 RPG 2.6 APG

Marion's playoff stats:

16.9 PPG 10.4 RPG 1.2 APG EFF: +22.64

Marion's WORST playoff numbers last year

15.7 PPG 10.5 RPG .7 APG

Marion's worst is Kirileno's best

Marion's CAREER playoff average? 17.1 PPG 10.9 RPG 1.4 APG 46% shooting

Marion kills Kirilenko everywhere including the ability to stay healthy. The lack of education on just how completely average Kirilenko is is astonishing.

 

[elindholm]

Yes he has. Go look at his playoff numbers.

Come on, Chris. You aren't allowed to count the early rounds against scrubs like the Grizzlies and Lakers. Those are basically just glorified regular-season games.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Come on, Chris. You aren't allowed to count the early rounds against scrubs like the Grizzlies and Lakers. Those are basically just glorified regular-season games.

I counted career playoff averages and Kirilenko freaking sucks in the playoffs. The fact you tried to say he was this great playoff player is laughable. You really need to watch some basketball outside of the Suns sometime.

 

[elindholm]

this AK for Diaw,Banks, filler proposal is interesting if utah really feels pushed.

Thanks to Diaw's BYC status, there's no way to make it work without the Suns including half their team. Diaw/Banks/Piatkowski/Marks doesn't get the numbers there. The Suns would have to include Bell or one of the rookies, and frankly I'd rather roll the dice with the unknowns (including Diaw) and bid Marion farewell.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Come on, Chris. You aren't allowed to count the early rounds against scrubs like the Grizzlies and Lakers. Those are basically just glorified regular-season games.

So you want to count Kirilenko's performance against the Golden State Warriors as some proof of his playoff ability, but want to discount anymore Marion plays besides San Antonio.

Okay then...

Marion's San Antonio numbers:

16.9 PPG 10.5 RPG .7 APG 1.2 SPG 2.3 BPG 52% shooting and 47% shooting from 3

Kirilenko's numbers against Golden State, his career playoff highs, don't even touch what Marion does in the playoffs.

Look we want to say Marion chokes in the playoffs, that is fine, but don't try to prop up a significantly worse player as being better than him when the facts don't remotely support that line of thinking.

 

[elindholm]

I counted career playoff averages and Kirilenko freaking sucks in the playoffs. The fact you tried to say he was this great playoff player is laughable. You really need to watch some basketball outside of the Suns sometime.

Chris, these gratuitous personal swipes are beneath you, particularly given your status as a moderator. Please keep them under control. What am I supposed to do, report you to yourself?

I watch plenty of NBA basketball; you just continue to be obsessed with the fact that I don't watch college sports, which is of course completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Kirilenko played nine early-round playoff games while he was only 21 and 22 years old, then stunk it up this last postseason, while he was miserable and playing out of position. Neither of those is much of a predictor. He just lit it up in the international tournament, so he can step up when it matters most. Would he in the late rounds of the NBA playoffs? There's no way to know, but we already know that Marion can't, so I'd rather go with the "maybe."