Knicks @ Suns 3-6-19

[Yuma]

JJ said in an interview that he is still trying to find his way in the second year in the NBA. At least he admits he doesn't know it all yet.

 

[BC867]

Well, I'm not necessarily saying it would never make sense to trade him - but there are very few young players that have more potential to improve - and he still is on a relatively good contract for 2 more years.

What I am really saying is we should not want to trade him unless a very good player is available in return.

Why would any team trade a very good player for a disappointing/inconsistent one?

Even if the fault lies with an inferior coaching staff.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Why would any team trade a very good player for a disappointing/inconsistent one?

Even if the fault lies with an inferior coaching staff.

He still has potential in the eyes of some. He can be packaged with picks. Some team may be looking at moving salary.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'll take the sure thing in Warren, you guys can have your upside. Just like last year bang on Warren. But its hard to defend him when he is always hurt.

Warren doesn't move the needle at all.

He's the classic stat chaser.

 

[Hoop Head]

I found this article interesting, it has to do with Fultz being considered a bust already but the same logic can be applied to JJ.

According to the NBA’s 2018-19 Roster Survey, the average age in the NBA is 26.41 years old and the average NBA experience is 4.80 years.

Markelle Fultz is six years younger than the NBA average and has 2.8 fewer years of experience. Accordingly, the Washington Huskies product’s age and experience render it unfair to cast him as a “bust” right now.

Even just since 2014, several examples prove why caution against premature judgment is necessary for evaluating athletes. Fultz’s own former Philadelphia 76ers teammate Joel Embiid was the third overall pick in 2014. However, Joel Embiid only played his 33rd career game during the 2017-18 NBA season. At this time, Embiid was 23 years old. Currently, Joel Embiid is regarded as one of the best players in the NBA.

In 2016, the Toronto Raptors drafted a largely unheralded prospect out of New Mexico State named Pascal Siakam. Much like Fultz, Siakam would have also been labeled a “bust” based on his first two NBA seasons. With 136 games played, but averages of only 5.7 points and 3.9 rebounds, early evaluations of Siakam would be poor. Now, at age 24 in his third season, Siakam is averaging 16.4 points and 7.1 rebounds on a 59.1% effective field goal percentage as a frontrunner for the Most Improved Player award.

I bolded the main parts about judging a player prematurely. They may be talking about Fultz but it applies to JJ as well, especially with how they speak about Siakam. I believe JJ can match Siakam's numbers next season. He's already ahead of most of his stats in year 1 and year 2 so he has less room to make up to get there. He probably won't shoot as efficiently as Siakam but that is no reason to give up on him.

If for some reason the Suns decline his 4th option or we trade or release him then whoever made that call should be fired right after we see JJ light up the Suns in the first meeting between his new team and us. I don't believe it's a matter of if he lights up the boxscore when facing us so much as when. I think dumping him for nothing would give him the motivation to be an absolute killer in the league. I believe he'll get there eventually with us but we need to give him time and have some patience.

He's nowhere near as bad as Chriss and Bender were throughout 2 NBA seasons so the talk of declining his option or dumping him for cap room should not be something that's tossed around like it's a good idea. We'll never get out of the hole our team is in if we give up on 2/3's of our 1st round picks after the 2nd year.


https://lastwordonprobasketball.com/2019/03/07/markelle-fultz-nba-bust-20-years-old/

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I found this article interesting, it has to do with Fultz being considered a bust already but the same logic can be applied to JJ.



I bolded the main parts about judging a player prematurely. They may be talking about Fultz but it applies to JJ as well, especially with how they speak about Siakam. I believe JJ can match Siakam's numbers next season. He's already ahead of most of his stats in year 1 and year 2 so he has less room to make up to get there. He probably won't shoot as efficiently as Siakam but that is no reason to give up on him.

If for some reason the Suns decline his 4th option or we trade or release him then whoever made that call should be fired right after we see JJ light up the Suns in the first meeting between his new team and us. I don't believe it's a matter of if he lights up the boxscore when facing us so much as when. I think dumping him for nothing would give him the motivation to be an absolute killer in the league. I believe he'll get there eventually with us but we need to give him time and have some patience.

He's nowhere near as bad as Chriss and Bender were throughout 2 NBA seasons so the talk of declining his option or dumping him for cap room should not be something that's tossed around like it's a good idea. We'll never get out of the hole our team is in if we give up on 2/3's of our 1st round picks after the 2nd year.


https://lastwordonprobasketball.com/2019/03/07/markelle-fultz-nba-bust-20-years-old/

I have been trying to get this point across on Suns boards for some time now. You just don't give up on players after 1-2 years in the league. Bender is a bit of an exception to that because he really hasn't even given us glimpses of being anything special. Someone like JJ is a different situation though because he has given us plenty of glimpses of his potential, but just hasn't found consistency yet. That is specifically the type of guy that you should be patient with. Even in Bender's case I was willing to see what we had in year 3, but I wasn't expecting much by that point.

I suspect that we might be feeling more patient if the team was doing better, but that shouldn't force us to be overly hasty with giving up on our highly drafted players.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I found this article interesting, it has to do with Fultz being considered a bust already but the same logic can be applied to JJ.



I bolded the main parts about judging a player prematurely. They may be talking about Fultz but it applies to JJ as well, especially with how they speak about Siakam. I believe JJ can match Siakam's numbers next season. He's already ahead of most of his stats in year 1 and year 2 so he has less room to make up to get there. He probably won't shoot as efficiently as Siakam but that is no reason to give up on him.

If for some reason the Suns decline his 4th option or we trade or release him then whoever made that call should be fired right after we see JJ light up the Suns in the first meeting between his new team and us. I don't believe it's a matter of if he lights up the boxscore when facing us so much as when. I think dumping him for nothing would give him the motivation to be an absolute killer in the league. I believe he'll get there eventually with us but we need to give him time and have some patience.

He's nowhere near as bad as Chriss and Bender were throughout 2 NBA seasons so the talk of declining his option or dumping him for cap room should not be something that's tossed around like it's a good idea. We'll never get out of the hole our team is in if we give up on 2/3's of our 1st round picks after the 2nd year.


https://lastwordonprobasketball.com/2019/03/07/markelle-fultz-nba-bust-20-years-old/

He is just as bad. Worst 2 pt shooter, worst 3 pt shooter, between the two rebounding, more turnovers that both by a lot, edges our Chriss for steals by a smidge, worst offensive rating, virtually tied for the worst defensive rating. In virtually every efficiency stat he is worse, he just shoots more, which does not help. JJ has been spectacularly bad this year especially. The fact that he has been worse this year than last does not bode well.

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ragan+Bender&player_id3=bendedr01&idx=players

I would not advocate just cutting him for cap space. We do not have to cut him before free agency, so JJ's salary can be on the table when we shop. I would only advocate cutting him if we have a bird in hand. This team has oodles of SF's. Oubre, Mikal, and Warren are all better right now, and likely into the future. Warren is tradeable in my mind, but so is JJ. To treat him as untouchable is just now wise.

 

[Hoop Head]

He is just as bad. Worst 2 pt shooter, worst 3 pt shooter, between the two rebounding, more turnovers that both by a lot, edges our Chriss for steals by a smidge, worst offensive rating, virtually tied for the worst defensive rating. In virtually every efficiency stat he is worse, he just shoots more, which does not help. JJ has been spectacularly bad this year especially. The fact that he has been worse this year than last does not bode well.

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ragan+Bender&player_id3=bendedr01&idx=players

I would not advocate just cutting him for cap space. We do not have to cut him before free agency, so JJ's salary can be on the table when we shop. I would only advocate cutting him if we have a bird in hand. This team has oodles of SF's. Oubre, Mikal, and Warren are all better right now, and likely into the future. Warren is tradeable in my mind, but so is JJ. To treat him as untouchable is just now wise.

Look at the splits for JJ that go month by month. There is no denying he was horrendous to start the season off but he has improved every month and has played really well the last month and a half or so. Unlike Bender and Chriss though he has an incredibly high motor and that does work against him sometimes but it also helps him learn and train better. Chriss was lazy and Bender was lost, while JJ was too eager for his own good. He is improving though.

The beginning of the year didn't start well for anyone on our team, JJ especially, so I'm not holding that against him since he's played quite well since the calendar flipped to 2019. There's no telling if we learn and not repeat past mistakes next season but one thing we should know at this point is he will be trying to improve for next season. Chriss wouldn't put in the work and Bender is too dumb to know what work he needed to put in. I wish JJ were further along than he is but if even if he stays at his current level, since the All-Star Break, he will be a good rotation player.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Warren doesn't move the needle at all.

He's the classic stat chaser.

Well that's the biggest BS I've heard on this board yet. Oubre is the one looking for a contract and is stat chasing. Hell JJ is looking for a contract and sure as hell is stat chasing. Everyone wants Warren to be the sixth man and save the day when he is so much better then both those kids its obvious. Warren is the best PF of the bunch and no one gave him credit for playing good DF against bigger players. Warren is the better player then all three of the other small forwards

But hell lets send the Vet somewhere he will be appreciated.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Well that's the biggest BS I've heard on this board yet. Oubre is the one looking for a contract and is stat chasing. Hell JJ is looking for a contract and sure as hell is stat chasing. Everyone wants Warren to be the sixth man and save the day when he is so much better then both those kids its obvious. Warren is the best PF of the bunch and no one gave him credit for playing good DF against bigger players. Warren is the better player then all three of the other small forwards

But hell lets send the Vet somewhere he will be appreciated.

The issue with Warren has nothing to do with how he gets his numbers, but his lack of offering anything outside of solid scoring. He doesn't defend well (which isn't good along side Booker), he's not a leader (Oubre seems to be doing quite well in this department) and he does not pass the ball well at all. Oubre is similar in that last department, but he brings a lot more on defense and has been a good leader for the team both on the court and in the locker room.

 

[Carolinacacti]

and in the locker room.

So lets here about is locker room ya ya?

 

[Hoop Head]

Well that's the biggest BS I've heard on this board yet. Oubre is the one looking for a contract and is stat chasing. Hell JJ is looking for a contract and sure as hell is stat chasing. Everyone wants Warren to be the sixth man and save the day when he is so much better then both those kids its obvious. Warren is the best PF of the bunch and no one gave him credit for playing good DF against bigger players. Warren is the better player then all three of the other small forwards

But hell lets send the Vet somewhere he will be appreciated.

Who does Warren defend well, especially these bigger players you say plays good defense against? What does he bring to the table besides scoring? He rarely passes the ball and since he rarely passes he doesn't many assists at all. Up until this year he hadn't shot 3's well.

You have no evidence that Jackson is only stat chasing for a contract. He has 2 more years essentially locked in and then he's a restricted free agent.

You say Oubre is stat chasing but his numbers have increased with his role but they really haven't increased much since he's been here. Last year in Washington he averaged 14.6 ppg on 11.8 FG attempts a game while shooting 43.9% a game from the field and 31.9% from 3 while taking 4.9 a game and making 1.5. He averaged 4.7 rebounds to go with 1.1 assists, 1.2 steals, and 1 block a game in 27.5 minutes a night. With us he's averaging 16.1 ppg, 44.2% from the field in 12.9 attempts and 5.2 3pt attempts and making 1.7 of them for 32%. He averages 4.9 rebounds, 1.6 assists, 1.3 steals, and 1 block in 28.8 minutes a game. Source for stats

Sure looks like Oubre is stat chasing to me. His numbers have gone up slightly to match his small increase in playing time.

 

[Hoop Head]

So lets here about is locker room ya ya?

You mean quotes like this after the Bucks game where Booker gives Oubre credit for helping get everyone ready coming out of the All-Star break? "

"It just says a lot about this team," Booker said. "We're not backing down to anybody. After the All-Star break, a lot of teams could shut it down, but we're not. It feels like a new season for us. Kelly and I were just talking. We wished the season just started right now. We're ready for every game. We're coming at teams and we're ready for it."

Source

Or Oubre talking about how happy he is in Phoenix and wan't to be here and turn things around. He wants to finish his career in Phoenix if he had his way. Source

I can't remember the last time I heard Warren talk positively about another player on the team or the franchise. I know it's hard but you claim he's so much further ahead than Oubre but that's not exactly true. He may score a lot but he doesn't lead. He may be a veteran but we need veterans who will help our young guys. Do you see Warren talking with our youngsters after a bad play, sort of coaching them up? Oubre and Booker do that. So what has Warren done in the locker room?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

You mean quotes like this after the Bucks game where Booker gives Oubre credit for helping get everyone ready coming out of the All-Star break? "


Source

Or Oubre talking about how happy he is in Phoenix and wan't to be here and turn things around. He wants to finish his career in Phoenix if he had his way. Source

I can't remember the last time I heard Warren talk positively about another player on the team or the franchise. I know it's hard but you claim he's so much further ahead than Oubre but that's not exactly true. He may score a lot but he doesn't lead. He may be a veteran but we need veterans who will help our young guys. Do you see Warren talking with our youngsters after a bad play, sort of coaching them up? Oubre and Booker do that. So what has Warren done in the locker room?

There is this as well.

“Yeah he has,” Johnson said of Oubre Jr. being a leader. “He’s very vocal. He definitely brings a great sense of energy both on and off the court. When you enjoy being around certain people, then it’s a little easier to go out and fight with them.”

More quotes from the team regarding Oubre here:

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/...jr-is-proving-why-phoenix-suns-need-to-pay-up

 

[Dan H]

Oubre has definitely proven to be the kind of glue guy you want to keep around, like a Raja Bell or PJ Tucker. I hope we re-sign him.

 

[elindholm]

How do you figure JJ has less limited upside? If all four he has the best ability to get to the rim on his own (finishing is another story, but that’s developable). His first step and speed places pressure on a defense that warren, Bridges can’t, and oubre isn’t as quick as JJ. He’s the least finished product by far, but I also think he’s got the greatest floor-to-ceiling potential.

You can't fix stupid.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

You can't fix stupid.

JJ doesn't seem stupid to me, but simply overeager. He needs to slow things down a little bit and let things simply happen a little more often.

 

[taz02]

JJ doesn't seem stupid to me, but simply overeager. He needs to slow things down a little bit and let things simply happen a little more often.

I don't know. I get the feeling he isn't the brightest guy. On the other other hand there have been plenty of successful idiots in the NBA. Cliff Robinson comes to mind.

With JJ its going to take time, probably alot of time.

If we can send JJ and or TJ out for a starting PG or PF we should do it. Both JJ and TJ are valuable and expendable. Neither should be shipped out for nothing.

 

[SirStefan32]

The thing is that we already have Oubre and Bridges. I understand we need to be patient with JJ, but he is not really critical. Oubre and Bridges make JJ and Warren expandable. If JJ or TJ can be flipped for a point guard or a PF, Suns should do it.

 

[95pro]

Players that can play now: Booker, Ayton, Oubre, Bridges
Future: Melton, JJ

We still need to develop players for the future, and that means hanging on to guys like JJ. I'd rather move guys like Okobo off the bench to g-league and keep a guy around like JJ.

I was a huge Warren guy but with the emergence of Bridges and Oubre this year, it shows what Warren doesn't provide this team.

 

[elindholm]

JJ doesn't seem stupid to me, but simply overeager. He needs to slow things down a little bit and let things simply happen a little more often.

I don't know whether he's "book stupid," but his basketball IQ is among the lowest I've ever seen. Even when he's playing "well," he makes several decisions a game that are jaw-droppingly, horrifyingly, blatantly-obviously stupid.

 

[BC867]

Warren is the best PF of the bunch and no one gave him credit for playing good DF against bigger players. Warren is the better player then all three of the other small forwards.

If "Warren is the best PF of the bunch and no one gave him credit for playing good DF against bigger players", it means his presence would further delay us from getting a legitimate Power Forward who is not going against bigger players. And one who could take pressure off Ayton to be the sole rebounder. That would be a false sense of security and would stand in the way of improving the team.

And if you believe that Warren is also the best Small Forward, you are basing it on his shooting alone. He has never been a good defensive Small Forward. Or capable of distributing. Or rebounding as a Small Forward.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That’s where we differ. You’re going off pure upside and I’m more on the side of whether he actually reaches it. I suppose I should’ve used expectational upside rather than best case ceiling.

Okay, makes sense.