Kobe: Priceless

[LakeShowMan]

Originally posted by fordronken
What number of things would classify as "many"?

Calling an innocent person a murderer, a pedophile, or an a abuser. Those are really the only things that may be on the level. As far as I am concerned those are the dregs of society, and the worst people in the world.

We all have our own opinions, but AFAIAC those are the worst of the worst in the world.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

LSM - Good discussion.

I just hope that we really do find out what happened and this does not turn out to be another let-he-who-has-the-better-legal-team-win kind of case.

Even once this court case is over, we may not know what happened in that room that night.

It is a sad fact that Kobe might be found "not guilty" even if he did assault this girl, simply by his legal team calling her previous actions into question.

If he is found to be "not guilty," I hope he really is. However, it still won't change my opinion of him.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Originally posted by Brian in Mesa
LSM - Good discussion.

I just hope that we really do find out what happened and this does not turn out to be another let-he-who-has-the-better-legal-team-win kind of case.

Even once this court case is over, we may not know what happened in that room that night.

It is a sad fact that Kobe might be found "not guilty" even if he did assault this girl, simply by his legal team calling her previous actions into question.

If he is found to be "not guilty," I hope he really is. However, it still won't change my opinion of him.

Unfortunately, you may be right. It is the whole OJ paradox. Can one buy innocence?

Unfortunately, it seems that some might be able to (cough, OJ, cough), but that is the system we live in, and for my money its still the best the world has to offer, even if it may have some negatives.

I don't know if Kobe falls into the same boat. Some take solace in the fact that they believe a higher power will have final justice. I just hope the truth is found out, and Kobe, guilty or innocent, gets what he deserves.

 

[elindholm]

Unfortunately, we all know that it's much more common for someone to commit a crime and get away with it than it is for someone to be convicted of a crime he didn't commit. Ergo, a not guilty verdict has a significantly lower probability of being correct than a guilty verdict does. That's just a property of our legal system.

 

[JJ Slim]

Originally posted by elindholm
Ergo, a not guilty verdict has a significantly lower probability of being correct than a guilty verdict does.

But that probability shifts drastically to the other end as the accused's skin color darkens and their income decreases.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Originally posted by elindholm
Unfortunately, we all know that it's much more common for someone to commit a crime and get away with it than it is for someone to be convicted of a crime he didn't commit. Ergo, a not guilty verdict has a significantly lower probability of being correct than a guilty verdict does. That's just a property of our legal system.

Very true. I am no legal expert, but that is most likely because we believe in "proving beyond a reasonable doubt". I guess all we can hope as Americans is that the system gets it right as much as possible, without taking away freedoms we hold so dear.

I wish there was a system that allowed our courts to be correct 100% of the time, unfortunately with any thing run by humans, for humans, the element for error and mistakes will always be there.

Its times like that (a guilty person getting off), that I kind of wished that I believed in justice being carried out by a higher, infallable, being. All we can do, is the best that we can do, I guess.

I still believe our system is better than those in other parts of the world, where guilt is decided on without any kind of judicial means.

 

[JJ Slim]

I hope that this case is not decided on a technicality. It very well could be, in which case we will never really know if he was guilty or not. Of course in that case, the Kobe supporters will say he is innocent because he was not found guilty.

Also if Kobe committed rape, he did not commit adultery. Rape is not adultery in any way. It's doesn't matter if you're married or not. Rape is rape, adultery never enters into it. At the very least Kobe committed adultery. But if he is convicted, he is rapist and not an adulterer. He will not have cheated on his wife, he will have committed rape.

Of course that may all be semantics but it's my view anyways.

 

[fordronken]

Originally posted by LakeShowMan
Calling an innocent person a murderer, a pedophile, or an a abuser. Those are really the only things that may be on the level. As far as I am concerned those are the dregs of society, and the worst people in the world.

We all have our own opinions, but AFAIAC those are the worst of the worst in the world.

Are you saying that there aren't many things worse to accuse someone of than rape, or that there aren't many things worse, period than being accused of rape? Based on your earlier post, I assumed the latter, but based on this one, it seems to be the former.

 

[fordronken]

Originally posted by JJ Slim
Also if Kobe committed rape, he did not commit adultery. Rape is not adultery in any way. It's doesn't matter if you're married or not. Rape is rape, adultery never enters into it. At the very least Kobe committed adultery. But if he is convicted, he is rapist and not an adulterer. He will not have cheated on his wife, he will have committed rape.

Wait, so it's only adultery if the third party gives its consent? Just because the second sin is bigger, it doesn't cancel out the first one. It'd be like me buying you a Casio wrist watch, then two days later giving you a priceless antique grandfather clock. Just because you've got a big expensive clock now, it doesn't me I didn't buy you a Casio.

 

[JJ Slim]

Originally posted by fordronken
Wait, so it's only adultery if the third party gives its consent?

I never really thought of it like that, but I would have to say yes. I'm not saying adultery is right or even not that bad. But rape is so much worse that it's not even in the same league. I guess a better way to say it would be that just because sex is involved in both cases does not mean that they are even remotely related.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Originally posted by fordronken
Are you saying that there aren't many things worse to accuse someone of than rape, or that there aren't many things worse, period than being accused of rape? Based on your earlier post, I assumed the latter, but based on this one, it seems to be the former.

I am saying there isn't much worse than FALSELY accusing someone of rape, when the accuser knows that said person is innocent (the only things I can think of that are as bad are murder, pedophile, or an abuser). I am very proud of anyone that acuuses somebody that did rape them, because from things I have read many rape victims do not even report it.

I am not saying this for the sake of the Kobe case, but just in general. I have no idea what happened in the Kobe situation, and I will reserve my judgement until the facts are laid out in front of a jury of his peers.

Labeling an innocent person, any of the above things, when the accuser knows it to be false, is almost as bad as commiting the crimes themselves, IMO. It is not only selfish and vile, but it leads people to discredit true victims thus making them victims of the crime and of unneccesary judgement by the court of public opinion. Rape is about as bad a thing as you can do to a person, and someone lying about it to get attention or for financial gain is just about as disgusting.

I hope I answered your question.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Originally posted by fordronken
Wait, so it's only adultery if the third party gives its consent? Just because the second sin is bigger, it doesn't cancel out the first one. It'd be like me buying you a Casio wrist watch, then two days later giving you a priceless antique grandfather clock. Just because you've got a big expensive clock now, it doesn't me I didn't buy you a Casio.

I somewhat agree with JJ, rape isn't really a sexual act. It is a physical attack and crime. It is not sexual, more of an abuse.

From things I have read or seen on TV, criminologists don't consider rape to be about sexual gratification as much as it is forcing your will on somebody that doesn't want you to. It is not really adultery, but a violent crime. One of the worst that anyone can do to someone.

 

[fordronken]

Originally posted by LakeShowMan
I am saying there isn't much worse than FALSELY accusing someone of rape, when the accuser knows that said person is innocent (the only things I can think of that are as bad are murder, pedophile, or an abuser). I am very proud of anyone that acuuses somebody that did rape them, because from things I have read many rape victims do not even report it.

I am not saying this for the sake of the Kobe case, but just in general. I have no idea what happened in the Kobe situation, and I will reserve my judgement until the facts are laid out in front of a jury of his peers.

Labeling an innocent person, any of the above things, when the accuser knows it to be false, is almost as bad as commiting the crimes themselves, IMO. It is not only selfish and vile, but it leads people to discredit true victims thus making them victims of the crime and of unneccesary judgement by the court of public opinion. Rape is about as bad a thing as you can do to a person, and someone lying about it to get attention or for financial gain is just about as disgusting.

I hope I answered your question.

Let me rephrase my question.

Are you saying that there aren't many things worse to falsely accuse someone of than rape, or that there aren't many things worse, period than being falsely accused of rape?

I am wondering if you think that being falsely accused of rape is worse than most other thigns, even those not regarding false accusation. I hope I'm making myself clear.

 

[fordronken]

Originally posted by LakeShowMan
I somewhat agree with JJ, rape isn't really a sexual act. It is a physical attack and crime. It is not sexual, more of an abuse.

From things I have read or seen on TV, criminologists don't consider rape to be about sexual gratification as much as it is forcing your will on somebody that doesn't want you to. It is not really adultery, but a violent crime. One of the worst that anyone can do to someone.

Hm. Well, even from a technical standpoint, the opinions aren't exactly unanimous. The American Heritage Dictionary says the following: Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.

Bible dictionary says conjugal infidelity. An adulterer was a man who had illicit intercourse with a married or a betrothed woman, and such a woman was an adulteress.

And Webster's says "The unfaithfulness of a married person to the marriage bed; sexual intercourse by a married man with another than his wife, or voluntary sexual intercourse by a married woman with another than her husband."

So, the sexual intercourse part is pretty consistent, but whether or not it's voluntary is apparently a factor as well, depending on who you ask.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Originally posted by fordronken
Let me rephrase my question.

Are you saying that there aren't many things worse to falsely accuse someone of than rape, or that there aren't many things worse, period than being falsely accused of rape?

I am wondering if you think that being falsely accused of rape is worse than most other thigns, even those not regarding false accusation. I hope I'm making myself clear.

Oh now I get it. Definetly the first one.

There are worse things that can happen to people in this world, than being accused of something you didn't do. The loss of a child or another loved one, etc.

Being accused of rape (or something similar) is definetly not the worst thing that could happen to a person. However, accusing someone of something like that when you know they didn't do it is a pretty (expletive deleted) thing to do to someone.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by LakeShowMan


Being accused of rape (or something similar) is definetly not the worst thing that could happen to a person. However, accusing someone of something like that when you know they didn't do it is a pretty (expletive deleted) thing to do to someone.

That is definitely a good point, and correct. But in this case, that is one scenario that is possible, not true. Yet. There are many different scenarios, all of which are possible.

If Kobe is found innocent, then that's great, the girl wasn't raped. We'll have to see what kind of innocence is decided, whether there isn't enough evidence or whether they can prove she lied.

So Kobe can be found innocent, but that also will not prove that the girl lied about it.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Originally posted by Chaplin
That is definitely a good point, and correct. But in this case, that is one scenario that is possible, not true. Yet. There are many different scenarios, all of which are possible.

If Kobe is found innocent, then that's great, the girl wasn't raped. We'll have to see what kind of innocence is decided, whether there isn't enough evidence or whether they can prove she lied.

So Kobe can be found innocent, but that also will not prove that the girl lied about it.

Agreed. I would definetly not be singing the praises of Kobe just because of an innocent verdict. That wouldn't mean something wrong didn't happen, just that they couldn't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt that it was rape.

The only thing that could complete absolve Kobe in everyones eyes is if it became abundantly clear that this girl lied (of course he still would have cheated on his wife). I am not sure that is even possible, even if she did lie, because the only way we would know for sure is if she says so.

This is a very touchy subject, and one that will permenatly scar everyone involved.

Kobe will never be looked at the same again regardless of the verdict, but if he is found innocent, I would accept that for what it is, and give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[elindholm]

I somewhat agree with JJ, rape isn't really a sexual act. It is a physical attack and crime. It is not sexual, more of an abuse.

This entirely depends on the situation. Both acts stem from the male's inability to deal with testosterone, which fuels both the sex drive and violent aggression. In the case of "date" or "acquaintance" rape, it is probably more about sex than about violence.

 

[3rdside]

Now i haven't been following the kobe situation too closely but does anyone honestly believe kobe will be found guilty?

I mean here you have one persons word against another (as is often the case with rape), and one of these persons happens to be a sport superstar. The guy has a flawless track record - he donates to charity, is an upstanding citizen blah blah blah and the 'victim' doesn't - she is a 'college dropout.'

Now these things have absolutely nothing to do with what actually happened, nor should they really be taken into account but, unfortunatley, these are the only hard facts a jury has to deal with.

From an uniformed point of view (my own) how on earth will kobe be found guilty? There is no way IMO.

Kobe's legal team will be the best money can buy - it wouldn't be that hard to paint a picture of an opportunistic girl trying to capitalise on a position she fell into. All the lawyers have to do is cast some doubt in the jury's mind - it is not up to them to prove kobe innocent; rather, they only need show that he may not be guilty and he'll walk (a guilty verdict can only be given when the decision is 'beyond reasonable doubt'). No doubt a simple task for a team of millionaire lawyers.

 

[JJ Slim]

Originally posted by ...tTs*...
unfortunatley, these are the only hard facts a jury has to deal with.

No, those are the only hard facts WE have, and they may be questionable. Fortunately the jury will have access to actual hard facts, many of which we will probably never know.

 

[Wally]

I'll be glad to see the season start so we have more enjoyable thing to discuss. Only 29 days to 1st preseason game

I've been married longer than many on the board have been alive and I've never cheated on my wife. Believe me, it's rare that marriages last and even more rare that one or the other married partners doesn't mess around. That doesn't make it ok, but it's also not ok to lead someone on to "the point of no return" and then accuse them of rape - even worse if you don't say NO.

I would venture to say, we'll never know what happened. I think it will be dropped because of the girls alleged mental problems.

 

[3rdside]

No, those are the only hard facts WE have

I disagree - all other facts (besides a telephone call/conversation, certain times etc.) are his story/her story arguments. How can you prove a rape if it's one persons word against another, particularly when there is a lack of conclusive physical evidence? My only guess is that you would have to show that she was suffering mentally as a result of the 'attack' but...

I would venture to say, we'll never know what happened. I think it will be dropped because of the girls alleged mental problems.

for this reason even that will be hard to do.

 

[3rdside]

No, those are the only hard facts WE have

I disagree - all other facts (besides a telephone call/conversation, certain times etc.) are his story/her story arguments. How can you prove a rape if it's one persons word against another, particularly when there is a lack of conclusive physical evidence? My only guess is that you would have to show that she was suffering mentally as a result of the 'attack' but...

I would venture to say, we'll never know what happened. I think it will be dropped because of the girls alleged mental problems.

for this reason even that will be hard to do.

 

[JJ Slim]

I got your point the first time.

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by ...tTs*...
How can you prove a rape if it's one persons word against another, particularly when there is a lack of conclusive physical evidence?

Wait. How do you know theres a lack of conclusive physical evidence? Was there some report somewhere I missed?