Kurt Thomas

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

I weep myself to sleep once a week over losing those picks.

 

[nowagimp]

This is your serious response? He's in a rebounder's paradise, playing for a new contract, and you write off his faults as ennui?


Here's a guy who proved toothless as an enforcer because he was so obsessed with getting big minutes--the punchline there is, when he finally got the time he'd been saving himself for, he needed four days to recover afterwards--and you claim he's skipping games on purpose? A guy whose ineptness on offense allowed Duncan to guard both sides of the pick-and-roll in the second half of game 5, and you say he's shooting 'only' 43% this year because he's forced to take bad shots bailing out his teammates?

Mourn the first-round picks, absolutely, or that the Suns didn't try to re-sign Antonio McDyess back in 2004, but this Kurt Kult crap has become really old, really quick. Especially since Brian Skinner (who's very obviously four years younger) is currently giving the Suns every bit of what KT gave them in 2005 and 2006.

Save your energy for someone else. Any vet whos played as long as he has loses some desire to play on a bad team. Kevin Durant is shooting under 40%, and the team shoots 43% as a whole, shot creation on that team stinks. The PG situation is glum, very bad. As for playing for a new contract, I doubt KT will get another non minimum contract at his age. If I were him I would hope to stay healthy and get traded to a playoff team by the deadline. As far as skinner: KT held Yao to 17ppg/7rpg in '07, Yai scored what 31 against the suns last rockets game? As far as your regrets in the second half of game 5, all suns fans know KT loses something at his age after 28 minutes or so. Players are rotated in and out of the lineup, play until they get too tired to be productive. That was not possible in game 5. Game 5 was lost at the end of game 4, anyone knows that. You cant beat the spurs without two of your top 7 players in a short rotation, dream on. Your evaluations of KT's defense pretty much go against the grain of ALL NBA scouts, someone is incorrect, perhaps you shoud be a scout IF you're the one whos right here. Duncan had 1.1 assist a game against the suns, but far his lowest of the postseason, and the spurs offense was less efficient against the suns than against all those other teams in the '07 playoffs. Its not about duncans stats its about the spurs as a team, and duncan makes it happen. Double teaming always makes the double teamed players stats go down, but the cost is very high overall as players who cant normally score ring up big numbers. The nuggest double teamed TD, and held him to 20ppg(but 6.5 asst/game), and they were almost swept, pretty much destroyed after game 1.

 

[F-Dog]

Yai scored what 31 against the suns last rockets game?

New offense for the Rockets. Boris held Yao down last year, too.

Your evaluations of KT's defense...

Where were those? Refresh my memory a bit.

 

[nowagimp]

New offense for the Rockets. Boris held Yao down last year, too.


Where were those? Refresh my memory a bit.

Youre the only one who equates KT's defense and skinners, all alone. Yao just backed skinner down, I have eyes, so do you. When yao gets to his spots down low, he's almost impossible to stop. KT used to draw offensive fouls and destabilize yao by stepping back when yao leaned hard once in a while. Skinner showed no such strategy and allowed yao to just back him down to his spots. If you didnt see this or dont know it, I understand your evals.

 

[F-Dog]

Yao just backed skinner down, I have eyes, so do you.

Yao got the ball on the move for the most part, with Skinner and Amare forced to show at the basket (voluntarily ceding position) to defend guard penetration. That's what my eyes told me.


FWIW, Skinner had a positive +/- that game, while Yao's +/- was negative.

 

[jbeecham]

As far as skinner: KT held Yao to 17ppg/7rpg in '07, Yai scored what 31 against the suns last rockets game?

This analysis isn't right at all. Skinner wasn't guarding Yao all game and isn't responsible for all 31 pts that Yao scored. Yao played for 40:17 minutes and Skinner played 17:36 minutes and I don't know if Yao was even in the entire time Skinner was playing. The main reason Yao was successful was because the Suns didn't have good energy and played the game at the Rockets pace, which allowed Yao to setup and get good position. If the Suns played their game then there's no way he stays on the floor 40+ minutes.

On top of that, you completely ignored the stats from the 1st Suns - Rockets game this year where Yao finished with 12pts and 6 rebs in 23 minutes on 4-17 shooting. By your logic, why doesn't Skinner get credit for that since he played 15 minutes in that game?

 

[Covert Rain]

Yao got the ball on the move for the most part, with Skinner and Amare forced to show at the basket (voluntarily ceding position) to defend guard penetration. That's what my eyes told me.


FWIW, Skinner had a positive +/- that game, while Yao's +/- was negative.

That is true. Not to mention that Kurt Thomas had plenty of sub par game last year against centers not named Yao. Certain guys play certain guys well and other not so well. Besides how he plays Yao doesn't concern me. How he plays Duncan does.

 

[nowagimp]

This analysis isn't right at all. Skinner wasn't guarding Yao all game and isn't responsible for all 31 pts that Yao scored. Yao played for 40:17 minutes and Skinner played 17:36 minutes and I don't know if Yao was even in the entire time Skinner was playing. The main reason Yao was successful was because the Suns didn't have good energy and played the game at the Rockets pace, which allowed Yao to setup and get good position. If the Suns played their game then there's no way he stays on the floor 40+ minutes.

On top of that, you completely ignored the stats from the 1st Suns - Rockets game this year where Yao finished with 12pts and 6 rebs in 23 minutes on 4-17 shooting. By your logic, why doesn't Skinner get credit for that since he played 15 minutes in that game?

Youre right that skinner doesnt and KT didnt play nearly as long as Yao. I did see what I saw, that skinner just couldnt keep yao from his favorite spots, which KT was successful at. The players watch the matchups and understand, stat analyzers look at plus/minus. Basketball stats are treated as one dimensional when they are often multidimensional. When a guy like Duncan or Yao moves with the ball on the block, the position he gains will determine how good a shot it will be. WHen Yao or Duncan or Howard gain that favored position, you cant stop them. What KT knows that skinner doesnt is how to deny that position to a larger player, and that is just about all he does better than skinner, but its huge. If those guys are able to get that favored position consistently a double team will be necessary to stop them from going off for big points with great FG%.

Now when the double comes, someone is open. In the first game, there was no TMAC, hence Yao did poorly against the double, as would be the case with Duncan if he had no shooters to pass to. The suns doubled him with impunity knowing no one else could score enough to make the difference. In the second game, TMAC kept the double from coming too fast and hence yao had alot of one-on-one post ups where he just backed skinner, diaw, amare or marion down and took his favored shot. Yao couldnt back KT down, but he can handle the suns current post guys. All the plus minus stats are nice, but they just dont explain all of what goes on, its not like only one player changes anyway, multiple players change on defense and offense in most games as part of a player rotation.

 

[nowagimp]

Yao got the ball on the move for the most part, with Skinner and Amare forced to show at the basket (voluntarily ceding position) to defend guard penetration. That's what my eyes told me.


FWIW, Skinner had a positive +/- that game, while Yao's +/- was negative.

Did your eyes see skinner bouncing off yao as yao backed him down? When you play a big slow guy like yao, he cant dribble around you, you get in his chest before he gets into position, so he cant get the momentum of the 300lbs up off the dribble to push you back. You have to body him up before he coompletes his step or you will bounce like a ball backwards. Any player is weakest when he lifts his foot to step, try it yourself, pushing someone back while dribbling on one leg. Basic big man 101, and KT knew how to do it as well as anyone. If skinner knew what KT knows, he'd be way better than KT as hes quite a bit stronger, quicker. KT's weakness was quick big guys like Howard, Randolph the'yd eat him up.

Of course if you knew all this we wouldnt be talking about it anyways.

 

[cly2tw]

In the win over Pacers, Skinner couldn't really defend JO when it counted. He just isn't as experienced and "dirty" as Kurt is. Kurt knows all the tricks to make it uncomfortable for the offensive player. In comparison, despite the look, Skinner appears to be a nice guy on the court.

Skinner's adv. over KT is his athletism and is much more active on offense.

 

[CaptainInsano]

I think JO had skinners number, while skinner is great at defense he is a shotblocker and does decent at keeping his man away from their preferred spot in/near the paint (though he is not as good as KT). Problem was JO was hitting turnaround fadeaway jumper after turnaround fadeaway jumper after turnaround fadeaway jumper etc.

To be honest I don't know what a bigman could do, since he would have to keep JO about 12-15 feet out to stop him from doing that.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Yeah its hard enough to defend the fadeaway J, especially when hes got 3 more inches on you and thats his specialty. As long as you can push him out far enough, let him shoot it all day.

 

[nowagimp]

In the win over Pacers, Skinner couldn't really defend JO when it counted. He just isn't as experienced and "dirty" as Kurt is. Kurt knows all the tricks to make it uncomfortable for the offensive player. In comparison, despite the look, Skinner appears to be a nice guy on the court.

Skinner's adv. over KT is his athletism and is much more active on offense.

I dont think KT was dirty, he just used contact and resistance energy to destabilize his defensive assignment. Duncan does this as well, it isnt dirty, just experience. The goal is to keep the opponent off balance as much as possible. I like skinner, I just wish he had KT's saavy. KT would sometimes use enegy and some times take it away, making guys like Yao fall down. Sometimes he would flop, allow himself to be knocked down as well, getting the foul. When you are backing down your defender with energy, its much easier if you know what he will do. If you push hard and he releases you, you can lose your blaance quite easily, resulting in a missed shot. When I watch skinner, he doesnt do any of this, he's too predictable.

 

[F-Dog]

Did your eyes see skinner bouncing off yao as yao backed him down?

As I explained in the post you quoted, no. I saw something entirely different.

Any player is weakest when he lifts his foot to step, try it yourself, pushing someone back while dribbling on one leg...

Relevance?


Everybody knows what KT can do. Some of us also realize there are things he can't do.

 

[azirish]

The Suns problem in the second Rockets game was not Skinner, it was that they couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. The usual way the Suns deal with Yao is to run him off the court, but the Suns look like crap when they can't hit their shots.

 

[Covert Rain]

The Suns problem in the second Rockets game was not Skinner, it was that they couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. The usual way the Suns deal with Yao is to run him off the court, but the Suns look like crap when they can't hit their shots.

That is 100% correct. The is the very first time I have seen Yao not go to the bench out of fatigue. Every single time we play them Yao had to go to the bench gasping for air. I didn't see that this game.

 

[nowagimp]

That is 100% correct. The is the very first time I have seen Yao not go to the bench out of fatigue. Every single time we play them Yao had to go to the bench gasping for air. I didn't see that this game.

Yao goes to the bench just as much for foul trouble as fatigue, check the stats of the games. So much for 100%! Kt drew fouls on Yao alot. If yao sits, the suns will get the pace they want as the rockets half course offense stinks with yao sitting.

 

[jbeecham]

Yao goes to the bench just as much for foul trouble as fatigue, check the stats of the games. So much for 100%! Kt drew fouls on Yao alot. If yao sits, the suns will get the pace they want as the rockets half course offense stinks with yao sitting.

For that you actually have to have refs willing to call fouls on Yao and that doesn't happen every night....The refs in that game weren't calling many fouls at all and that's always going to favor Houston. It would be nice if the refs forced Yao to play honest at least half of the game by calling him for 3 seconds in the lane on both ends of the floor.

 

[nowagimp]

For that you actually have to have refs willing to call fouls on Yao and that doesn't happen every night....The refs in that game weren't calling many fouls at all and that's always going to favor Houston. It would be nice if the refs forced Yao to play honest at least half of the game by calling him for 3 seconds in the lane on both ends of the floor.

I guess the refs either liked KT, or he knew how to draw fouls on Yao. I hear you about the 3 seconds calls, it seems like opposing bigs -not just yao- are just pitching a tent in the lane against the suns lately.

 

[Cheesebeef]

dude's ripping down 10 rpg in 22 minutes. That's impressive. I think we'll see how much we miss Kurt once SA blows through us in our first meeting.

 

[Covert Rain]

Yao goes to the bench just as much for foul trouble as fatigue, check the stats of the games. So much for 100%! Kt drew fouls on Yao alot. If yao sits, the suns will get the pace they want as the rockets half course offense stinks with yao sitting.

Yao, actually fouls because of fatigue. I don't remember a single game in which Kurt got Yao into foul trouble by himself. I remember several games where Yao fouled Amare or Nash though.

Also, show me this mythical stat on how many fouls KT actually drew from Yao by himself.

 

[nowagimp]

Yao, actually fouls because of fatigue. I don't remember a single game in which Kurt got Yao into foul trouble by himself. I remember several games where Yao fouled Amare or Nash though.

Also, show me this mythical stat on how many fouls KT actually drew from Yao by himself.

Well I do remember, quite a few offensive fouls KT drew that limited Yaos minutes. KT was good at that, one of the best centers in the league at drawing offensive fouls.

 

[Covert Rain]

Well I do remember, quite a few offensive fouls KT drew that limited Yaos minutes. KT was good at that, one of the best centers in the league at drawing offensive fouls.

I do think Kurt is a good defender but he is not known for fouling guys out. Kurt is more known for scraping and doing the dirty work as you said above. Yao gets into foul trouble when he plays athletic guys like Amare or he gets run off the court.

Again, I am not worried about Yao whatsoever. All roads lead through San Antonio.

 

[nowagimp]

I do think Kurt is a good defender but he is not known for fouling guys out. Kurt is more known for scraping and doing the dirty work as you said above. Yao gets into foul trouble when he plays athletic guys like Amare or he gets run off the court.

Again, I am not worried about Yao whatsoever. All roads lead through San Antonio.

http://www.82games.com/charge.htm

according to 82 games, thomas drew 34 offensive fouls in 05-06 while playing only 26mpg in 53 games. Nash drew 36 in far more minutes/games. KT never fouled anyone out with his offense, but he did get guys in foul trouble(only need 2 in the first half) by drawing offensives and Yao was one of those guys. Admittedly, some guys just ate Kurt up with speed, but not Yao and not TD. Still, the suns are missing the physical presence of a guy who boxes out using his smarts. Maybe KT is just used up and done at his age, but no big on the suns is good at boxing people out. KT would make a great rebounding coach, as any great rebounder would tell you, its all about getting position.

 

[Covert Rain]

http://www.82games.com/charge.htm

according to 82 games, thomas drew 34 offensive fouls in 05-06 while playing only 26mpg in 53 games. Nash drew 36 in far more minutes/games. KT never fouled anyone out with his offense, but he did get guys in foul trouble(only need 2 in the first half) by drawing offensives and Yao was one of those guys. Admittedly, some guys just ate Kurt up with speed, but not Yao and not TD. Still, the suns are missing the physical presence of a guy who boxes out using his smarts. Maybe KT is just used up and done at his age, but no big on the suns is good at boxing people out. KT would make a great rebounding coach, as any great rebounder would tell you, its all about getting position.

That would theoretically equate to a possible 5.6 people being fouled out of a game over the entire season. However, I don't think Thomas was responsible for fouling out even 1 person himself. Also, regardless of minutes that equates to .4 fouls per game he draws. That hardly means that he got other players in foul trouble.

Both Nash and Bell are prime examples. They step in front and draw many charges. They are good at it. However, they are not synonymous for getting guys into foul trouble and sending them to the bench. Does it happen? Yes. Has Kurt done it? Yes. However, probably once or twice tops based on those numbers.

That doesn't make Kurt a Yao killer by any stretch. Not that we need one IMO. I still think Kurt can help out rebounding and definitely add toughness. I don't think Kurt is washed up by any stretch. I just think the one guy we need to defend the most (Tim Ducan).....he can't.