Kurt vs. Carson (year 1 w/ Cards)

[Arizona's Finest]

Well if we are going to look at a guys previous history and best year as his ceiling then Palmers 2005 was pretty damn good. 32 TDs 12 INTS almost 4,000 yards and 101 rating. And that was not the pass happy league of today. 32 TDs was good for 2nd in the league back then.

If he can get to that here and the rest of the team keeps playing well so we win, he can absolutely be a MVP candidate.

Not saying its going to happen but im very interested to see what he does with 2 years in the same offense and under BA. They already made comments about driving his INTs down considerably and his TDs are only going to go up I would think.

Well see. If he can have 30+ TDs and a 2.5 TD/INT ratio ill be smiling.

Still want to see what Stanton can do too. Also want a rookie stud.

I just love Quarterbacks I guess

 

[Jetstream Green]

Palmer will never be as good as Warner but Warner is Hall of Fame material and that is hardly a knock on Palmer who in my opinion is a good QB

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well if we are going to look at a guys previous history and best year as his ceiling then Palmers 2005 was pretty damn good. 32 TDs 12 INTS almost 4,000 yards and 101 rating. And that was not the pass happy league of today. 32 TDs was good for 2nd in the league back then.

Yeah, but that was just one season, a decade ago, pre-injury when he was a different QB then what he looked like next decade...which is what his numbers pretty much were with us this year.

If he can get to that here and the rest of the team keeps playing well so we win, he can absolutely be a MVP candidate.

man, I think this is an extremely dubious claim. he can be an MVP candidate? He can be a solid QB, but a Peyton/Brees/Brady? I don't think there's any evidence that he can play at that level which is who wins MVPs. He just has consistently contributed too many turnovers for that to happen IMO.

Not saying its going to happen but im very interested to see what he does with 2 years in the same offense and under BA. They already made comments about driving his INTs down considerably and his TDs are only going to go up I would think.

Well see. If he can have 30+ TDs and a 2.5 TD/INT ratio ill be smiling.

i think we all would be smiling.

 

[sundevil04]

If you take Warner's numbers from all of '05, '06 & '07 and adjust to an equal amount of passing attempts as Palmer had in '13 so you can compare apples to apples here's what you get...

Warner
comp - 364
Att- 574
comp% - 63.4%
YPA - 7.55
TD - 25
INT- 18
Fumbles - 10


Palmer
comp - 362
Att- 572
comp% - 63.3%
YPA - 7.55
TD - 24
INT- 22
Fumbles - 6


Again...Doesn't get closer than that. And that is taking into consideration Warners first 3 years in AZ

 

[sundevil04]

Yep! This ends the thread right here. Let's come back next year and compare the numbers again. Probably won't even be close.

Read my post above.

 

[sundevil04]

The reason I posted this in the first place is that this afternoon I went back and was reading OLD posts from '05, '06 & '07. Most of the opinions on here were that

"at least Warner is better than what we've had the past few years"

and

"He's above average"


Sound familiar?

 

[sundevil04]

Warner: 65.4% TD-TO ratio

Palmer: 85.7% TD-TO ratio

A fumble is not a TO, a fumble lost is.

 

[sundevil04]

Well if we are going to look at a guys previous history and best year as his ceiling then Palmers 2005 was pretty damn good. 32 TDs 12 INTS almost 4,000 yards and 101 rating. And that was not the pass happy league of today. 32 TDs was good for 2nd in the league back then.

If he can get to that here and the rest of the team keeps playing well so we win, he can absolutely be a MVP candidate.

Not saying its going to happen but im very interested to see what he does with 2 years in the same offense and under BA. They already made comments about driving his INTs down considerably and his TDs are only going to go up I would think.

Well see. If he can have 30+ TDs and a 2.5 TD/INT ratio ill be smiling.

Still want to see what Stanton can do too. Also want a rookie stud.

I just love Quarterbacks I guess

Excellent points. Keep in mind though that Warner's BEST year with the cards (SB year) he had 30 TD's and a 2/1 TD/int ratio (and 9 fumbles). So asking Palmer to throw for 30+ and 2.5/1 is a TALL order.

I think all too often as time passes we put players from the past on a pedestal and make players of today live up to a standard that never really was.

As you can see from the comparison of Warners first THREE seasons in AZ vs Palmer's year here they are almost identical. I for one was floored when I did the comparison and saw how similar they were and I'm willing to be 95% of Cards fans wouldn't have thought it would be anywhere close.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Could someone please get Carson... Kurt's magic gloves already

 

[seesred]

I think Carson will have a great year next season. He knows this team has a shot and it wont be him that takes it away. In his first year with all the changes he led the team too 10 wins! I don't care what his numbers match to Kurt what I care about is a home field Super bowl appearance..

GBR
40

 

[wa52lz]

Well, thanks for the FINAL word on this.

Hey he did know exactly when the season was over this year!

 

[sundevil04]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb...to-win-yeah-right-63621.html?highlight=warner


"Well Warner does flat out suck. Not only did he have 3 Ints 5 sacks and 1 fumble. He also had 6 batted down passes at the line.

He also missed numerous open WR's during the game. Josh has been no world beater to be sure. But he certainly cant do any worse than Warner.

As to Renz comment that we might as well play Warner because Josh is gone? Where proof of that? That is speculation at its finest. I could just as easily say we might as well play Josh because Warner is gone and I would have just as much shot of being accurate."

- Shane
Nov. 6th 2005

 

[Cheesebeef]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb...to-win-yeah-right-63621.html?highlight=warner


"Well Warner does flat out suck. Not only did he have 3 Ints 5 sacks and 1 fumble. He also had 6 batted down passes at the line.

He also missed numerous open WR's during the game. Josh has been no world beater to be sure. But he certainly cant do any worse than Warner.

As to Renz comment that we might as well play Warner because Josh is gone? Where proof of that? That is speculation at its finest. I could just as easily say we might as well play Josh because Warner is gone and I would have just as much shot of being accurate."

- Shane
Nov. 6th 2005

anyone know whatever happened to Renz?

 

[schutd]

Hey he did know exactly when the season was over this year!

heyo!

 

[sundevil04]

Here's a good one...

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/kurt-warners-stats-are-sickening-100641.html?highlight=warner

"our season was pretty much shot when Leinart went down. Kurt in the long run of any game, is going to hurt more than he helps."

Cheesebeef
Oct 22, 2007

 

[sundevil04]

Aaaaaand the winner is....

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/warner-not-the-problem-101412.html?highlight=warner

"Let me shorten it up for you. Warner IS the problem.

I hope finally this puts to rest the notion that KW can be a starter in this league.


Leinart was not a world beater three games into his second season (and I am still confident he will develop) but i marvel at how much better control he had of a game then Warner. Warner will throw 2 INTS a game but have 300 yards passing and a TD and everyone will look at the good and think "hes still got it".

Nope. In fact doesn't every one notice how his turnovers are ALWAYS at the worst possible time.

I tire of Warner and he is just good enough to break your heart.

Obviously we need to get the Oline health back in order and put our intended starting 5 out there to actually run the ball - but we are not going to win a damn thing with warner at the helm. Thats a fact.

What a joke. Lets start Tim Rattay."


Arizona's finest
Nov 5th 2007


...one year later Warner was an MVP candidate taking us to the Super Bowl. Forever enshrined in the minds of Cardinal fans as the savior.

Oh how short our memories are.

 

[sundevil04]

Do any of these criticisms sound familiar Palmer bashers?

 

[moklerman]

I really don't think you can look at Warner from '05 as the same guy who played from '07 - '09. Until he started wearing the gloves, he couldn't secure the ball and his fumbling affected every aspect of his game. So, a comparison of what Palmer did his first year vs. what Warner did his first year seems a bit...I don't know, it just doesn't seem to be apples to apples.

Also, I think their circumstances are vastly different. Warner had to throw for the Cardinals to succeed. Much of their success was on the passing game. I don't know that I'd say the same for the 2013 Cardinals.

I think the Cardinals did well to pick up Palmer and I think his numbers will be even better next year but the situations seem pretty dissimilar. Warner was not in a situation where he could throw 4 picks and still have the Cardinals come out with a victory.

But, Palmer showed great improvement as the year went on. His 2nd half was actually quite good:
188/288(65.3%) 2,361 yards(8.2 ypa) 14TD(4.9%) 8INT(2.8%) 95.3 rating.

That's pretty much right where Warner was his last couple of years with the Cardinals. And to be fair, Palmer just had one really bad game the last 8 games which shot his interception total up. They still count but it wasn't like he was doing earlier in the year when he was turning the ball over every game. He had 4 of the last 8 games without an interception at all and just 1 each in the other games.

With a full off season I think there's a lot to look forward to for Palmer. But, the next step...which is a big leap, is for him to elevate his game from those projected good numbers and do it in the playoffs. That's where Warner separated himself from just about anyone else. He was a risk taker most of the time and it burned him a lot. But when it came playoff time, he got even better than his good regular season numbers.

 

[schutd]

Page three of this thread is why I never talk about football in absolutes. And the fact that dudes like SD04 will inevitably make you pay for it if you do.